Red Wings drop 2 spots, will pick 9th in NHL Draft

[kliq 3,755]

47 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

OK, ya, I'm now confused...what the heck is all that!?!

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/canucks-red-wings-one-number-off-winning-nhl-draft-lottery/

Its like an actual lottery, we were literally one number off from getting the 1st pick. Son of a *****!

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

17 minutes ago, kliq said:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/canucks-red-wings-one-number-off-winning-nhl-draft-lottery/

Its like an actual lottery, we were literally one number off from getting the 1st pick. Son of a *****!

All because of unlucky number 13. Can we blame this on Datsyuk somehow?!!

[chaps80 1,591]

21 minutes ago, kliq said:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/canucks-red-wings-one-number-off-winning-nhl-draft-lottery/

Its like an actual lottery, we were literally one number off from getting the 1st pick. Son of a *****!

One number off from 1st and 2nd, but ended up 9th. That really does blow. 

1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

OK, ya, I'm now confused...what the heck is all that!?!

They drafted Primeau 3rd overall in 1990 and Lapointe 10th in 91.

Oh OK. Close enough. That 1990 draft sure was stacked. Brodeur  went 20th.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

So? The Leafs were 1 number away from getting McJesus and it didn't happen.

Instead of blaming the lottery blame the useless points after the Wings were out,. I mean, it's still a lottery but smart teams should at least try to increase their odds it doesn't always work out but it for sure is better than this season with no rewards at all. Anyway it is what it is, here's what I would try:

Liljegren has added a bit of a weight that's a good sign so maybe pick him. I don't think Vilardi will fall to 9 heck I didn't even think he would fall to 7

trade Green, Goose/ Tatar and whomever to get another solid pick and choose Foote gives you 2 defenseman (Foote being the safe stay at home rugged hard to play against guy and Liljegren the creative more offensive minded type). At 9 th all the centers with potential will be gone and please avoid another boom or bust scenario that's rolling the dice again, something a team in a rebuild can't afford.

For sure gone: Patrick, Hirschier, Vilardi, Tippet

Probably gone: Liljegren, Poehling, Mittelstadt

NO TO: Makar, Glass and Necas

Edited April 30, 2017 by frankgrimes

[Dabura 12,207]

40 minutes ago, frankgrimes said:

So? The Leafs were 1 number away from getting McJesus and it didn't happen.

Instead of blaming the lottery blame the useless points after the Wings were out,.

I don't think anyone here is "blaming the lottery." They're just pointing out that we were one number away from the #1 pick and that this is a bummer.

43 minutes ago, frankgrimes said:

Instead of blaming the lottery blame the useless points after the Wings were out,.

It's not like we pulled a CBJ and went on a late-season tear. And it's not like Holland loaded up at the deadline and hurt our ability to suck. We were bad all season long, including the final stretch.

1 hour ago, frankgrimes said:

I mean, it's still a lottery but smart teams should at least try to increase their odds it doesn't always work out but it for sure is better than this season with no rewards at all.

Wait...what?

You've decided that our season has provided "no rewards at all" because we didn't get a lottery pick. ... And you're asserting that "trying to increase our odds" is "for sure better than" what it is we did, even though "it doesn't always work out." ... So, we should've tried to suck harder (how? By not trading Smith and Vanek for picks? By telling the players to wave the white flag and deliberately lose games? "Hey! Red Wings! Stop scoring so many power play goals! The power play is too good!") because that for sure would've been better for us, because all that matters is a top-three pick, which no team is guaranteed.

Seems legit.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

10 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I don't think anyone here is "blaming the lottery." They're just pointing out that we were one number away from the #1 pick and that this is a bummer.

It's not like we pulled a CBJ and went on a late-season tear. And it's not like Holland loaded up at the deadline and hurt our ability to suck. We were bad all season long, including the final stretch.

Wait...what?

You've decided that our season has provided "no rewards at all" because we didn't get a lottery pick. ... And you're asserting that "trying to increase our odds" is "for sure better than" what it is we did, even though "it doesn't always work out." ... So, we should've tried to suck harder (how? By not trading Smith and Vanek for picks? By telling the players to wave the white flag and deliberately lose games? "Hey! Red Wings! Stop scoring so many power play goals! The power play is too good!") because that for sure would've been better for us, because all that matters is a top-three pick, which no team is guaranteed.

Seems legit.

Good god how hard is it to understand the simple concept of calling up the kids, let them learn and while doing so they'll make mistakes thus losing more games and in return increasing the odds at a better pick?

If you disagree fine, where is the reward for this season?  The Wings marketing department will have their hands full come to the new shiny (self promotion) arena and watch.....? While other teams have Eichel, Matthews, Patrick, Ekblad, Werenski...yeah totally makes sense.

But like I said it is what it is, now they need to find a way to get rid of most veterans for picks and try to ice a very young team. It's funny how similar the path of the 2 teams who should have been rebuilding since 2012 are, the Canucks are having Horvat and Tanev..the Wings have Larkin, Mantha as their best pieces and both have fallen in the draft.

 

[Andy Pred 48 337]

 

Well unless we had a top 3 pick I cant see any other pick below 3 coming straight in to the line up so we are at the status quo before the lottery. ie Kenny and his crew have to get creative to improve our opening day roster. So now we wait till the draft week. 

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Just now, Andy Pred 48 said:

 

Well unless we had a top 3 pick I cant see any other pick below 3 coming straight in to the line up so we are at the status quo before the lottery. ie Kenny and his crew have to get creative to improve our opening day roster. So now we wait till the draft week. 

Other than maybe Patrick I don't think any of these guys is ready for a fulltime NHL spot.

[Andy Pred 48 337]

2 minutes ago, frankgrimes said:

Other than maybe Patrick I don't think any of these guys is ready for a fulltime NHL spot.

I think you may be right Frank, Maybe Hischier at a push and then we are struggling for the third guy. I do like the looks of the young Finns Heiskanen and Valimaki but not ready just yet 

[BringBack19 110]

My wishlist for who has a realistic chance of still being available (I don't think Glass will be there);

1) Suzuki

2) Liljegren 

3) Tippett 

 

[LeftWinger 4,961]

I hope that Tippett falls to us or if not, Holland takes Hague at 9. We've already established that this pick more than likely won't be in the NHL next season. Or trade back for a lower 1st and an extra 2nd and take Hague. 

[chaps80 1,591]

1 hour ago, frankgrimes said:

Agreed but from what I've read on TSN (slow as hell...), there are concerns with Patrick because of injuries. Hirschier needs to bulk up and then there already seems to be a bit of a drop off. Personally I would take Vilardi over Hirschier without thinking twice about it regardless the Flyers will get a very good prospect.

The funny thing is, there isn't even an UFA ready to help this team either so it's basically status quo for another year in other words time to trade the vets and sink or swim with the kids.

Agreed. NO vets should be off limits besides Z. Put fire sale tags on all of them, and as they're moved (more like huge if), promote one of the kids. Kenny still has this thought he can't seem to get out of his one track mind, which is playoffs. This is not a playoff team. Blow it up as much as you can while you can. Team is already on the outside of the playoff bubble, so why not bottom out and do the rebuild right? Jimmy D is on board, but Holland has to be Holland.

[Datsyukian-Deke 722]

Ok so I'm not really one of those "conspiracy theory" guys. But if I were the league and I wanted to send a message to teams that may appear to have tanked (Cough Vancouver cough) I would make sure none of the bottom 3 teams were picking in the top 3 picks to show that just because you are the worst, it doesn't guarantee you will get a top 3 pick. Then I would take someone from the 10-15 range and move them all the way up to show that with the draft lottery anything is possible so you might as well try to win till the final whistle cuz it doesn't matter where you end up. Hmmm. 

[kliq 3,755]

7 hours ago, frankgrimes said:

So? The Leafs were 1 number away from getting McJesus and it didn't happen.

Instead of blaming the lottery blame the useless points after the Wings were out,. I mean, it's still a lottery but smart teams should at least try to increase their odds it doesn't always work out but it for sure is better than this season with no rewards at all. Anyway it is what it is, here's what I would try:

Who pissed in your Cheerios Frank? Why so angry?

This is a discussion board, and this is a thread to discuss the draft. Us being one number away from winning was a story last night so we are discussing it. Nobody is "blaming" anything, if anything I like the luck of it all, I'm happy a team like Colorado was not rewarded with #1 after their miserable season while a team like Philly got #2 after trying to make the playoffs and just falling short. This type of thing will just further hurt the argument of the "pro tank" crowd.

1 hour ago, chaps80 said:

Agreed. NO vets should be off limits besides Z. Put fire sale tags on all of them, and as they're moved (more like huge if), promote one of the kids. Kenny still has this thought he can't seem to get out of his one track mind, which is playoffs. This is not a playoff team. Blow it up as much as you can while you can. Team is already on the outside of the playoff bubble, so why not bottom out and do the rebuild right? Jimmy D is on board, but Holland has to be Holland.

If ownership wanted to do this, it would be done. The fact that they are not doing it, tells me ownership is not down to do this.

Edited April 30, 2017 by kliq

[Datsyukian-Deke 722]

This is interesting. The one good thing about the draft this year is no one can agree on where people should be drafted. So we may have someone we want fall to us. In this mock we best be taking Tippett if he is still there at #9.

[LeftWinger 4,961]

42 minutes ago, Datsyukian-Deke said:

This is interesting. The one good thing about the draft this year is no one can agree on where people should be drafted. So we may have someone we want fall to us. In this mock we best be taking Tippett if he is still there at #9.

Nope, that'll be a Holland pick if it shakes out that way. My opinion, it'd be a waste to draft pettersson while Tippett is a still on the board. Holland says every year he wants to get bigger, draft kids that are tougher to play against, but in Holland fashion he'll draft a small finesse play that we have ZERO need for over the exact player he describes that we need...but until it's done, we can only hope Tippett is the next Red Wing drafted. Not some finesse kid just because he's is a typical Holland pick.

I have faith that Holland will draft Tippett if he's there. I'm actually surprised they didn't slot us drafting Liljegren.

[Datsyukian-Deke 722]

5 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Nope, that'll be a Holland pick if it shakes out that way. My opinion, it'd be a waste to draft pettersson while Tippett is a still on the board. Holland says every year he wants to get bigger, draft kids that are tougher to play against, but in Holland fashion he'll draft a small finesse play that we have ZERO need for over the exact player he describes that we need...but until it's done, we can only hope Tippett is the next Red Wing drafted. Not some finesse kid just because he's is a typical Holland pick.

I have faith that Holland will draft Tippett if he's there. I'm actually surprised they didn't slot us drafting Liljegren.

Yea my point is I think the Wings will still have a solid chance at a Tippett and especially Liljegren. I found 5 different mocks that were put out since the lottery last night and it's so crazy to me how different they all are. I can't remember a draft that had this much uncertainty at least going into the draft. We all know there are surprises on draft day. But people can't even agree who will be #1.

 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Datsyukian-Deke

[Buppy 1,720]

5 hours ago, frankgrimes said:

Good god how hard is it to understand the simple concept of calling up the kids, let them learn and while doing so they'll make mistakes thus losing more games and in return increasing the odds at a better pick?

If you disagree fine, where is the reward for this season?  The Wings marketing department will have their hands full come to the new shiny (self promotion) arena and watch.....? While other teams have Eichel, Matthews, Patrick, Ekblad, Werenski...yeah totally makes sense.

Funny thing to say in a year when two teams who had worse odds (one significantly worse) than we did moved up. 

1 hour ago, chaps80 said:

Agreed. NO vets should be off limits besides Z. Put fire sale tags on all of them, and as they're moved (more like huge if), promote one of the kids. Kenny still has this thought he can't seem to get out of his one track mind, which is playoffs. This is not a playoff team. Blow it up as much as you can while you can. Team is already on the outside of the playoff bubble, so why not bottom out and do the rebuild right? Jimmy D is on board, but Holland has to be Holland.

Lol, trade all the vets except the one who makes the biggest difference. 

There are two problems with "blowing it all up". One, losing doesn't automatically give you a great player. Even winning the first pick doesn't. And two, blowing it up means you have to do that much more to rebuild. Go that route you better plan on being bad for a long time, and there probably won't be any payoff either. 

Without missing the playoffs, we have added a number of young guys who are as good or close to the vast majority of those picked by lottery teams. and now we have a top 10 pick to work with. 

It takes a lot of luck to go from loser to contender. Trying to stay competitive, while drafting well and transitioning to the kids, is just as valid a rebuild strategy.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Maybe Tippett ends up as a 4th liner while Petterson fills out to 200 lbs and is a top liner.  Or Petterson never comes to the NHL and Tippett is a second liner.  Or both are top 6 players, or neither are.  We don't know.  Nobody knows.  It's pretty silly to throw a fit over a kid that you have no idea of what he's going to be in 6 years,

[kipwinger 8,524]

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that we move up in this draft (provided there's a player we really like in the 4-7 range).  Given how bunched together the prospects are after Patrick and Hischier, I think GM's might be more willing to fall back a few picks for an extra pick later.  And we've got a bunch of those.  Either way, we're still going to get a pretty good player at 9th.  Excluding European players you've still got...

1. Patrick

2. Hischier

3. Vilardi

4. Mittelstadt

5.  Rasmussen

6. Glass

7. Tippet

8. Tolvanen

9. Makar

10. Suzuki

Add Liljegren and Heiskanen (two of the better defensemen in the class) and anybody 4-8 above could fall to us.  I'm fairly interested to see how the plays out. 

 

[Datsyukian-Deke 722]

5 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that we move up in this draft (provided there's a player we really like in the 4-7 range).  Given how bunched together the prospects are after Patrick and Hischier, I think GM's might be more willing to fall back a few picks for an extra pick later.  And we've got a bunch of those.  Either way, we're still going to get a pretty good player at 9th.  Excluding European players you've still got...

1. Patrick

2. Hischier

3. Vilardi

4. Mittelstadt

5.  Rasmussen

6. Glass

7. Tippet

8. Tolvanen

9. Makar

10. Suzuki

Add Liljegren and Heiskanen (two of the better defensemen in the class) and anybody 4-8 above could fall to us.  I'm fairly interested to see how the plays out. 

 

Yea I was disappointed yesterday in the results but I'm not angry. If we make a selection I don't see a big talent drop from 4-10. I still think knowing Holland he trades back to somewhere in the 10-20 range. He loves to acquire extra picks and with such a murky draft I can see our scouts valuing a player in the 10-20 range as much as who we could select 9th overall. 

 

[kipwinger 8,524]

36 minutes ago, Datsyukian-Deke said:

Yea I was disappointed yesterday in the results but I'm not angry. If we make a selection I don't see a big talent drop from 4-10. I still think knowing Holland he trades back to somewhere in the 10-20 range. He loves to acquire extra picks and with such a murky draft I can see our scouts valuing a player in the 10-20 range as much as who we could select 9th overall. 

 

Yeah, I completely agree that is the more likely scenario.  But I can't help but think about the Bertuzzi and Givani Smith picks here.  In both those cases the Wings brass saw something they really liked in those kids games and were willing to take them earlier than expected.  I'm not saying they do, but say they really like something about Cody Glass (for example), I can see them attempting to move up knowing that other teams may be more willing to move back a few spots given how bunched together the prospects are.

Edited April 30, 2017 by kipwinger

[joesuffP 1,746]

You guys need to buckle down and be prepared for some ugliness during this rebuild. It's not gonna look like the team is making any progress for 2-3 years at least if we're lucky. Expecting a franchise guy like Eichel and Matthews after missing the playoffs once is ridiculous. I'm not expecting anything until the Wings next wave of dmen are stepping into the NHL. If they're all looking like busts than ya I'll start to panic

Edited April 30, 2017 by joesuffP

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Nope, that'll be a Holland pick if it shakes out that way. My opinion, it'd be a waste to draft pettersson while Tippett is a still on the board. Holland says every year he wants to get bigger, draft kids that are tougher to play against, but in Holland fashion he'll draft a small finesse play that we have ZERO need for over the exact player he describes that we need...but until it's done, we can only hope Tippett is the next Red Wing drafted. Not some finesse kid just because he's is a typical Holland pick.

I have faith that Holland will draft Tippett if he's there. I'm actually surprised they didn't slot us drafting Liljegren.

This is an old narrative that doesn't apply anymore. We have been drafting some size the last few years and it's clear we have been adding size to the draft criteria. Average height in the NHL is 6.01 and the great majority of our picks in the last while are above that:

2016: Givani Smith (6.02, 209 lbs), Malmstrom (6.02), Sambrook (6.02), Larsson (6.02) Elfstrom (6.03) and no one under 6 ft. 

2015: Svech (6.03, 205), Van Pottelberghe (6.02), Pearson (6.02), Holway (6.04, 201), only Saarijarvi (5.10) is under 6 ft.

2014: Larkin (6,01), Turgeon (6.02, 203), Ehn (6.02), Perry (6.03), Vahatalo (6.05), Kadeykin (6.05, 227 lbs) Holmstrom (is 6 ft, but 200 lbs)

2013: Mantha (6.05, 221), Nastasiuk (6.02, 202 lbs), Bertuzzi (6.01) Jarnmark (6.01), Pope (6.03), Wheaton (6.05, 223), McNutly (6.06, 210), Melen (6.02)

So. in the past 4 years, we've only taken 2 players that were 6 ft. or smaller (aka on the small side). That shows a clear choice for size.

Edited April 30, 2017 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[Buppy 1,720]

1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

Nope, that'll be a Holland pick if it shakes out that way. My opinion, it'd be a waste to draft pettersson while Tippett is a still on the board. Holland says every year he wants to get bigger, draft kids that are tougher to play against, but in Holland fashion he'll draft a small finesse play that we have ZERO need for over the exact player he describes that we need...but until it's done, we can only hope Tippett is the next Red Wing drafted. Not some finesse kid just because he's is a typical Holland pick.

I have faith that Holland will draft Tippett if he's there. I'm actually surprised they didn't slot us drafting Liljegren.

Stop trying to make "Holland pick" a thing. And he also says we need stars and we need a top defenseman. Despite your prejudices, we don't need Tippett any more than anything else. Less than most in fact. 

Personally, I think moving back a little would be a good move. Not sure if there would be anyone Carolina would want to move up for, but they have a bunch of 2nd and 3rd rounders. If we could do that, get Suzuki or Valimaki, then have a bunch of picks in the 2nd & 3rd, or use some to move back up.