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chaps80

Shattenkirk

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Nielsen was meant to replace ("replace") Datsyuk and help extend the playoff streak.
I'd like to think the fact that we're now officially a basement team has changed things and that Holland is not going to desperately do everything in his power to sign Kevin Shattenkirk, who isn't necessarily much better than Mike Green and who doesn't appear to be interested in becoming a Wing. Even if Holland does go all out for Shattenkirk, it's no secret that Shattenkirk wants to be a Ranger. Or, at least, that's what the rumors have been saying for the past year and a half.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up in Edmonton.


Yeah I know he was meant as a replacement, but it was too long a contract at a very wrong time. He's a guy you pick up as a contender in a trade in his last season or deadline to add scoring to help you in the playoffs at this point in his career, or a long term signing for a team with a low cap to help them build into contenders. He doesn't bring enough for a team up against the cap that was on the playoff bubble struggling to get in and win a couple games in the first round to throw that kinda cash/term at. Now Kenny's stuck with him.

Shattenkirk may not go to Detroit, or he may if the offers too good to turn down. If he wants to go to NY, then he'll need to price himself accordingly. Edmonton is def possible as well. Young team on the rise that needs a couple solid Dmen to put them into Conference/ Cup champions.


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7 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

Yeah I know he was meant as a replacement, but it was too long a contract at a very wrong time. He's a guy you pick up as a contender in a trade in his last season or deadline to add scoring to help you in the playoffs at this point in his career, or a long term signing for a team with a low cap to help them build into contenders. He doesn't bring enough for a team up against the cap that was on the playoff bubble struggling to get in and win a couple games in the first round to throw that kinda cash/term at. Now Kenny's stuck with him.

Personally, I didn't mind the Nielsen deal at the time. Not signing a veteran second-line centerman to that contract might've been the smarter play (looking at the bigger picture), but I don't really fault Holland for doing it. The goal was to make the playoffs and compete for the Cup, and we'd just lost Datsyuk, and counting on Larkin to quickly become our 1C or 2C probably wasn't realistic and probably wouldn't have been good for his development, and I don't think many people expected Zetterberg to have the season he had.

We're in a different situation now. We're in uncharted territory. I'm assuming the front office realizes that. I agree that Holland's cap management has been ass, but it's a new reality now. Or, at least, I'm hoping and cautiously trusting that the front office sees it that way and is going to proceed accordingly.

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31 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Or, at least, I'm hoping and cautiously trusting that the front office sees it that way and is going to proceed accordingly.

Your bold selection for next year, ya? 

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28 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Personally, I didn't mind the Nielsen deal at the time. Not signing a veteran second-line centerman to that contract might've been the smarter play (looking at the bigger picture), but I don't really fault Holland for doing it. The goal was to make the playoffs and compete for the Cup, and we'd just lost Datsyuk, and counting on Larkin to quickly become our 1C or 2C probably wasn't realistic and probably wouldn't have been good for his development, and I don't think many people expected Zetterberg to have the season he had.

We're in a different situation now. We're in uncharted territory. I'm assuming the front office realizes that. I agree that Holland's cap management has been ass, but it's a new reality now. Or, at least, I'm hoping and cautiously trusting that the front office sees it that way and is going to proceed accordingly.

I understand the goal Holland had in mind of playoffs, but if he looked at his own team's playoff stats since 2014, he'd see the trend (2015 was a bit different when Mrazek stepped up to help take the Bolts to 7, but still.) that they were no longer contenders, and future planning would be prudent. But typical Holland, gets a big chunk of cap by trading Datsyuk's deal ( Bit of a controversy in itself) and promptly burns it. Shoulda stayed pat, or hunted down a solid Dman. Oh well.

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10 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

I understand the goal Holland had in mind of playoffs, but if he looked at his own team's playoff stats since 2014, he'd see the trend (2015 was a bit different when Mrazek stepped up to help take the Bolts to 7, but still.) that they were no longer contenders, and future planning would be prudent. But typical Holland, gets a big chunk of cap by trading Datsyuk's deal ( Bit of a controversy in itself) and promptly burns it. Shoulda stayed pat, or hunted down a solid Dman. Oh well.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda, you said it yourself, the goal was the playoffs. Holland needed to replace a center and did. 

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Shoulda, woulda, coulda, you said it yourself, the goal was the playoffs. Holland needed to replace a center and did. 


Lots of posts here are of that nature. His goal was the playoffs. Why? To get bounced in 5 again and pick 16th? Coulda been fine not "replacing" Datsyuk. Might have even resulted in a top 5 pick. But no, The Streak!!


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15 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

 


Lots of posts here are of that nature. His goal was the playoffs. Why? To get bounced in 5 again and pick 16th? Coulda been fine not "replacing" Datsyuk. Might have even resulted in a top 5 pick. But no, The Streak!!


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I don't know what to tell you. Managements goal was the playoffs whether you liked that or not unfortunately. That goal is probably changed now.

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29 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

Lots of posts here are of that nature. His goal was the playoffs. Why? To get bounced in 5 again and pick 16th? Coulda been fine not "replacing" Datsyuk. Might have even resulted in a top 5 pick. But no, The Streak!!

Well if we somehow managed to scrounge up an extra 10 points this season (finishing just ahead of the Flyers) we would be picking 2nd overall and be guaranteed one of Patrick or Hischier...

Nothing is guaranteed by losing, especially the way the draft lottery is set up. The goal should always be to win hockey games.

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I don't know what to tell you. Managements goal was the playoffs whether you liked that or not unfortunately. That goal is probably changed now.


Hopefully it is. Jimmy D wants it that way, but Holland doesn't seem on board.


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Well if we somehow managed to scrounge up an extra 10 points this season (finishing just ahead of the Flyers) we would be picking 2nd overall and be guaranteed one of Patrick or Hischier...
Nothing is guaranteed by losing, especially the way the draft lottery is set up. The goal should always be to win hockey games.


No it's not guaranteed, but it helps. Colorado s*** the bed and got bumped to 4th. I'd take 4th.


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6 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

 


Hopefully it is. Jimmy D wants it that way, but Holland doesn't seem on board.


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Oh I think Holland's goal is to return to the playoffs next season, definitely. However, it sounds to me like the approach will change. I'm guessing he will try to shed cap to become more flexible, and go with more kids instead of the usual vets.

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4 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

No it's not guaranteed, but it helps. Colorado s*** the bed and got bumped to 4th. I'd take 4th.

Do you think Colorado are in a better position than Detroit going forward? I don't. They're also not guaranteed a better player in this years draft. Whoever they pick 4th could become a bust or 2nd / 3rd line / pair player, while whoever we pick 9th could become a stud number one center / defenseman. The difference between 4th and 9th in this years draft is negligible. Anything after number 2 is basically a crapshoot.

Also, the point I was trying to illustrate that you somehow missed in my last post was that Philly just barely missed the playoffs and are picking 2nd, guaranteed one of the big two, while Colorado were a complete dumpster fire all season, one of the worst seasons in NHL history, and are picking 2 spots below them... Tanking doesn't guarantee s***.

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Oh I think Holland's goal is to return to the playoffs next season, definitely. However, it sounds to me like the approach will change. I'm guessing he will try to shed cap to become more flexible, and go with more kids instead of the usual vets.


Yeah, he needs to get more kids up for sure. I dunno why he's so playoff obsessed. I know we Wings fans are used to winning, but most are aware of the current situation and what needs to be done first to get back in the race properly, and build a solid team again long term, not just band aids from season to season that result in futility.


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When he shed Dats contract, the problem wasn't signing Nielsen, the problem was along with that, he re-signed Helm. Blew the cap space he opened up out of the water. Now he has even less cap to re-sign three players that are due nice raises. I fully expect AA to get $1.5M-$2M and Tatar to top $5M.

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Personally, I didn't mind the Nielsen deal at the time. Not signing a veteran second-line centerman to that contract might've been the smarter play (looking at the bigger picture), but I don't really fault Holland for doing it. The goal was to make the playoffs and compete for the Cup, and we'd just lost Datsyuk, and counting on Larkin to quickly become our 1C or 2C probably wasn't realistic and probably wouldn't have been good for his development, and I don't think many people expected Zetterberg to have the season he had.
We're in a different situation now. We're in uncharted territory. I'm assuming the front office realizes that. I agree that Holland's cap management has been ass, but it's a new reality now. Or, at least, I'm hoping and cautiously trusting that the front office sees it that way and is going to proceed accordingly.

The problem is they had no realistic shot at the Cup with or without Nielsen. It was completely unnecessary.

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2 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

 


Yeah, he needs to get more kids up for sure. I dunno why he's so playoff obsessed. I know we Wings fans are used to winning, but most are aware of the current situation and what needs to be done first to get back in the race properly, and build a solid team again long term, not just band aids from season to season that result in futility.


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Because that's the point of putting a team together

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Not so much a shot at the Cup, but a shot at the playoffs thus keeping the streak alive.

If you ain't first you're last

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Because that's the point of putting a team together

I thought the point was to win the Cup

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Because that's the point of putting a team together


Yes of course. But when you have no realistic shot at anything, work towards improvement first before trying to win, that's all.


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The Preds were/are the 16th seed, and will be in the Finals...Like the Kings from a few years ago - anything can happen.
I think we all knew that Holland felt this team wasn't suited to win it all, but making the playoffs last summer was seemed pretty realistic.


Look at the Preds and Kings rosters. Rinne and Quick in goal. Two great defences. The Kings have scoring power too and are a big team.The Wings are way below them talent wise.


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1 hour ago, chaps80 said:

Lots of posts here are of that nature. His goal was the playoffs. Why? To get bounced in 5 again and pick 16th? Coulda been fine not "replacing" Datsyuk. Might have even resulted in a top 5 pick. But no, The Streak!!

After the season, Holland said at one of the press conferences that they felt they especially owed it to some people to continue the streak. I heard that especially to mean Mr. I. The streak might not mean much to you, but it's a big part of his legacy as an owner. It's one of the numbers that will stick out in the history books.

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4 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

 


Yes of course. But when you have no realistic shot at anything, work towards improvement first before trying to win, that's all.


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No realistic shot? I disagree with that.

1 minute ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

After the season, Holland said at one of the press conferences that they felt they especially owed it to some people to continue the streak. I heard that especially to mean Mr. I. The streak might not mean much to you, but it's a big part of his legacy as an owner. It's one of the numbers that will stick out in the history books.

I think you owe it to Zetterberg as well too to keep this team as competitive as possible. There are a ton of implications to rebuilding that most people don't consider. The Red Wings are selling a brand. To choose to tear down that brand completely is a last resort in most cases.

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When he shed Dats contract, the problem wasn't signing Nielsen, the problem was along with that, he re-signed Helm. Blew the cap space he opened up out of the water. Now he has even less cap to re-sign three players that are due nice raises. I fully expect AA to get $1.5M-$2M and Tatar to top $5M.


Helm deal sucked too. One of Tatar and Nyquist can be moved. Tatar needs a new deal, but would anyone take him with his future cap hit unknown? Might have to be a sign and trade. Nyquist might be the easier to move. His cap hit is just over $4 million with years left. If he wants to clear cap and promote kids, moving one makes sense.


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3 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

I won't disagree - the Wings are certainly a step below the Kings/Preds, but given our history, and the potential of Larkin/Nyquist/Tatar/AA/Sheahan - I'm certain Holland felt the Wings just might extend the streak.

Could anyone of us last summer predict the under performing, the sloppiness, the lack of direction? I honestly felt the Wings were outta the playoff picture after the US Thanksgiving, and many here thought I was crazy.

Nope. This season was a complete and utter mess. Would have been interesting to see what Mike Sullivan would have gotten out of our roster. 

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After the season, Holland said at one of the press conferences that they felt they especially owed it to some people to continue the streak. I heard that especially to mean Mr. I. The streak might not mean much to you, but it's a big part of his legacy as an owner. It's one of the numbers that will stick out in the history books.


It's not that I don't care about it. It was amazing to have a 25 year playoff streak. But at some point you gotta stop worrying about it, especially when you back in and lose in 5 games. Trying to continue it just f***s up the roster more than it is. Good run, time to rebuild.


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Not so much a shot at the Cup, but a shot at the playoffs thus keeping the streak alive.


Which has slowly made the roster full of horrid contracts for overpaid players. Errorsson, Helm, Kronwall, Green, Howard, Abby, DD, etc. Four defensemen have NTCs, and make more than $5 million each, yet the D was a big hole. Once other teams got past the back checking forwards, it was often embarrassingly easy for them to go straight to the net.


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