2017 Stanley Cup Finals: Nashville Predators vs. Pittsburgh Penguins

[amato 3,210]

 

Don't know if this was mentioned around last game or not but wow. Gotta be in conn smythe consideration if they win, right?  

[joesuffP 1,746]

Frank has already admitted he barely watches hockey and bases his opinion on hot takes from ESPN or much worse, twitter bloggers. I'm sorry but I'm pretty tired of seeing the same conversation over and over. Toews is a good 2 way 40 point player that the media granted with intangibles (being Canadian and having no personality basically)

[Echolalia 2,961]

3 minutes ago, joesuffP said:

Frank has already admitted he barely watches hockey and bases his opinion on hot takes from ESPN or much worse, twitter bloggers. I'm sorry but I'm pretty tired of seeing the same conversation over and over. Toews is a good 2 way 40 point player that the media granted with intangibles (being Canadian and having no personality basically)

Sounds like Draper.  Except Draper has more Cups.

[Buppy 1,720]

49 minutes ago, joesuffP said:

... Toews is a good 2 way 40 point player ...

I assume that's supposed to be a joke...

[joesuffP 1,746]

9 minutes ago, Buppy said:

I assume that's supposed to be a joke...

40-60 sorry... Might seem like I hate Toews I think he's a great player but he's not on the level of Crosby, Ovechkin etc... and the way the media hypes him up some people actually think that

[BadgerBob 297]

6 hours ago, amato said:

 

Don't know if this was mentioned around last game or not but wow. Gotta be in conn smythe consideration if they win, right?  

Maybe if he changes his name to Crosby and number to 87. I'd be surprised if it went to anyone else, just because. Murray should have won it last time.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Frank has already admitted he barely watches hockey and bases his opinion on hot takes from ESPN or much worse, twitter bloggers. I'm sorry but I'm pretty tired of seeing the same conversation over and over. Toews is a good 2 way 40 point player that the media granted with intangibles (being Canadian and having no personality basically)

Says a guy who is mentioning espn and hockey in the same sentence...

[amato 3,210]

25 minutes ago, BadgerBob said:

Maybe if he changes his name to Crosby and number to 87. I'd be surprised if it went to anyone else, just because. Murray should have won it last time.

Yeah you're most likely correct. And I agree about last time.. Murray got robbed. 

[xtrememachine1 795]

1 hour ago, joesuffP said:

40-60 sorry... Might seem like I hate Toews I think he's a great player but he's not on the level of Crosby, Ovechkin etc... and the way the media hypes him up some people actually think that

Its funny you say that because this is the same argument made years ago with Lemieux, Gretzky and Yzerman.  People were reluctant to put Yzerman in the same category as those two, but its his two way ability that prevented him from putting up higher numbers.  Mario and Wayne didn't play defense at all, meanwhile Yzerman is getting serious consideration for the Selke trophy.  Simply put, you're not going to be a two way player and put up the same kind of numbers as the elite forwards that do not.  Toews is young, has won 3 Cups, plays a solid two way game and plays like a monster in the playoffs.  He's on the same level as Ovechkin and Crosby, but in a different, less flashy way.

[joesuffP 1,746]

9 minutes ago, xtrememachine1 said:

Its funny you say that because this is the same argument made years ago with Lemieux, Gretzky and Yzerman.  People were reluctant to put Yzerman in the same category as those two, but its his two way ability that prevented him from putting up higher numbers.  Mario and Wayne didn't play defense at all, meanwhile Yzerman is getting serious consideration for the Selke trophy.  Simply put, you're not going to be a two way player and put up the same kind of numbers as the elite forwards that do not.  Toews is young, has won 3 Cups, plays a solid two way game and plays like a monster in the playoffs.  He's on the same level as Ovechkin and Crosby, but in a different, less flashy way.

This may sound blasphemous but Yzerman isn't in the same category as Gretzky and Lemieux imo

[LeftWinger 4,951]

1 hour ago, joesuffP said:

This may sound blasphemous but Yzerman isn't in the same category as Gretzky and Lemieux imo

For a few years he was. Late 80's, he was considered the 3rd best in the NHL behind those two.

https://www.si.com/vault/1989/03/20/119567/no-3-with-a-bullet-motowns-steve-yzerman-the-nhls-third-brightest-star-could-climb-even-higher-on-the-charts

 

[kliq 3,755]

2 hours ago, xtrememachine1 said:

Its funny you say that because this is the same argument made years ago with Lemieux, Gretzky and Yzerman.  People were reluctant to put Yzerman in the same category as those two, but its his two way ability that prevented him from putting up higher numbers.  Mario and Wayne didn't play defense at all, meanwhile Yzerman is getting serious consideration for the Selke trophy.  Simply put, you're not going to be a two way player and put up the same kind of numbers as the elite forwards that do not.  Toews is young, has won 3 Cups, plays a solid two way game and plays like a monster in the playoffs.  He's on the same level as Ovechkin and Crosby, but in a different, less flashy way.

Do you consider Bergeron and Kopitar on the same level as Ovie and Crosby? Because those are the best comparables to Toews just without the media jamming them down our throats.

[kickazz 5,459]

 

4 hours ago, xtrememachine1 said:

Its funny you say that because this is the same argument made years ago with Lemieux, Gretzky and Yzerman.  People were reluctant to put Yzerman in the same category as those two, but its his two way ability that prevented him from putting up higher numbers.  Mario and Wayne didn't play defense at all, meanwhile Yzerman is getting serious consideration for the Selke trophy.  Simply put, you're not going to be a two way player and put up the same kind of numbers as the elite forwards that do not.  Toews is young, has won 3 Cups, plays a solid two way game and plays like a monster in the playoffs.  He's on the same level as Ovechkin and Crosby, but in a different, less flashy way.

Yzerman was a top 5 point league scorer for like 4-5 different seasons. Has Toews EVER been a top scorer in the league? 

In fact, Anze Kopitar consistently scores more points than Toews (except this past season) and has won the Selke, two Stanley cups. Yet for some reason he isn't on your list with Toews, Ovie, Crosby. Your own post shows just how overrated Toews is when players comparable to him (Bergeron, Kopitar) aren't even named! 

I'll take it another step. Bergeron has MORE Selkes than Toews, scores at about the same rate (slightly lower), best face off guy in the league, won the stanley cup. Yet... he's not listed amongst this supposed Crosby, Ovie, Toews level..?

Btw both Bergeron and Kopitar have been "beasts" in the Stanley cup finals scoring, Kopitar finished a post season with 26 points, Bergeron with 20 points in the 2011 cup run. 

Toews is not at Ovie or Crosby's level. Toews is at the level of Bergeron and Kopitar. And that's as far as that goes. Bergeron is better defensively than Toews and Kopitar is better offensively than Toews. But overall, the three of them are in the same category. 

I would even say that prime Datsyuk and Zetterberg are better than all three Bergeron, Toews, Kopitar and slightly under Crosby and Ovie. My point is I don't even think those 3 (Bergeron, Toews, Kopitar) are a tier below Crosby or Ovie I think they're about a tier and a half below. 

And my final point is. You talk about how being a two way player prevents putting up high numbers. I say bulls***. Sergie Fedorov is a living example of a guy who won Selke, Hart, Pearson and was a top league scorer all within the same season in 1994. 

Another more recent example is Pavel Datsyuk in 2008 who scored 97 points (4th highest in the league) and won a Selke the same year. Datsyuk did it but Toews never could finish top 5 in scoring.

The fact of the matter is, a 2 way player CAN be a top league scorer and there are plenty of players who have done it. Just not Jonathan Toews because Jonathan Toews was never good enough to do it. 

Believe me even I didn't realize half the crap I'm saying until I actually looked the stats up. Because that's how the TSN and rest of Canadian sports media brain washes you. When you actually go look it up, you realize Toews has never even finished top 10 in scoring let alone top 5 or top 3 or 4 like other 2-way players have in this sport have over the years.

Fedorov 1994 - won Selke and finished 2nd highest in scoring after Gretzky

Fedorov 1996 - won Selke and finished top 10 in scoring 

Yzerman in 2000 - won Selke and finished top 10 in scoring

Datsyuk 2008 - won Selke and finished 4th in league scoring 

Zetterberg 2008 - didn't win Selke but finished 3rd, finished 6th in league scoring 

So what's Toews' excuse?

 

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by kickazz

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Tayes is the second greatest captain ever according to NHL Network.  Only behind that John Belivoo guy, and ahead of guys like Messier, Yzerman, Sakic, Stevens, Clarke and Gretzky.  

[kliq 3,755]

20 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Tayes is the second greatest captain ever according to NHL Network.  Only behind that John Belivoo guy, and ahead of guys like Messier, Yzerman, Sakic, Stevens, Clarke and Gretzky.  

If this isn't proof of Towes being overrated, I am not sure what else is. If Toews was on almost any other team or was European, nobody would talk about him in this manner.

The NHL has decided to create a narrative to sell it's product, and so many people fall for it, its crazy.

Toews is a very very good player. But to say he's at the same level as Crosby/Ovie AND that he's the 2nd best leader in the history of the sport is just not true.

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, kliq said:

If this isn't proof of Towes being overrated, I am not sure what else is. If Toews was on almost any other team or was European, nobody would talk about him in this manner.

The NHL has decided to create a narrative to sell it's product, and so many people fall for it, its crazy.

Toews is a very very good player. But to say he's at the same level as Crosby/Ovie AND that he's the 2nd best leader in the history of the sport is just not true.

And this is why Sidney Crosby and Evgeny Malkin need to win 1-2 more Stanley cups. To deter this bulls*** narrative that's pretty out of control. And it honestly got even more out of control when they (the NHL) put him on the top 100 players list this year. 

I was really hoping the LA Kings and Kopitar would win their 3rd cup as well. Kopitar finally won that Selke trophy last year (should have won it years ago); a third cup for them would also have helped deter this dumb narrative. 

I wonder what people will think of Toews 10-15 years from now after he's retired. Will people look back and still think he's that good? Or will they realize how stupidly overrated he was. I'm assuming the latter because hindsight really is 20/20 and in this case, hindsight would actually be a good thing to use in your argument. 

People used to drool over Danny Heatley, Vincent Lecavelier, Marty Turco back in the mid 2000s. And now those same names are associated with "dam he got washed up", "wow he was overrated", and "holy s*** did people actually think he was that good?" 

Edited June 3, 2017 by kickazz

[shocky2002 36]

Toews over Malkin is still the funniest thing I've ever stumbled upon. Oh NHL

[BinMucker94 302]

9 hours ago, kickazz said:

And this is why Sidney Crosby and Evgeny Malkin need to win 1-2 more Stanley cups. To deter this bulls*** narrative that's pretty out of control. And it honestly got even more out of control when they (the NHL) put him on the top 100 players list this year. 

I was really hoping the LA Kings and Kopitar would win their 3rd cup as well. Kopitar finally won that Selke trophy last year (should have won it years ago); a third cup for them would also have helped deter this dumb narrative. 

I wonder what people will think of Toews 10-15 years from now after he's retired. Will people look back and still think he's that good? Or will they realize how stupidly overrated he was. I'm assuming the latter because hindsight really is 20/20 and in this case, hindsight would actually be a good thing to use in your argument. 

People used to drool over Danny Heatley, Vincent Lecavelier, Marty Turco back in the mid 2000s. And now those same names are associated with "dam he got washed up", "wow he was overrated", and "holy s*** did people actually think he was that good?" 

50 in 07 

[kickazz 5,459]

2 hours ago, BinMucker94 said:

50 in 07 

Heatley actually earned the NHL stardom because he did put up numbers but that same fan base that helped him rise up chewed him out when he declined and got exposed in a changing NHL. Looking back now, the guy is considered one of the most overrated by people. I personally am not sure if I agree, I think he was great but the majority of fans no longer do. 

Toews has it worse imo because he doesn't actually have any individual numbers to prove his individual legacy. No 40 goal seasons, no 100 point seasons, only one Selke trophy in an era where Bergeron won 3 (possibly 4th this year) Not even a ppg player and he's not even 30 years old yet..

No one is going to remember the "intangibles" bulls*** 30 years from now. They'll simply be looking at numbers and individual trophies and comparing them the players in his era, where he isn't even top 5 in a single category. 

Edited June 3, 2017 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

For a few years he was. Late 80's, he was considered the 3rd best in the NHL behind those two.
https://www.si.com/vault/1989/03/20/119567/no-3-with-a-bullet-motowns-steve-yzerman-the-nhls-third-brightest-star-could-climb-even-higher-on-the-charts
 

Yzerman didn't play 2 way hockey when he was putting up those numbers. But back then your best offensive players weren't expected to defend much either.

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk

Toews is the most over rates player some Glenn Anderson

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk

[Echolalia 2,961]

4 hours ago, kickazz said:

Heatley actually earned the NHL stardom because he did put up numbers but that same fan base that helped him rise up chewed him out when he declined and got exposed in a changing NHL. Looking back now, the guy is considered one of the most overrated by people. I personally am not sure if I agree, I think he was great but the majority of fans no longer do. 

Toews has it worse imo because he doesn't actually have any individual numbers to prove his individual legacy. No 40 goal seasons, no 100 point seasons, only one Selke trophy in an era where Bergeron won 3 (possibly 4th this year) Not even a ppg player and he's not even 30 years old yet..

No one is going to remember the "intangibles" bulls*** 30 years from now. They'll simply be looking at numbers and individual trophies and comparing them the players in his era, where he isn't even top 5 in a single category. 

Playing his whole career on a stacked team, to boot

[shocky2002 36]

Fleury and Murray should share the Conn Smythe

[shocky2002 36]

Pittsburgh just has better goaltending, coaching, offensive depth, special teams, basically everything except for D-men.

[shocky2002 36]

PLEASE Preds, need you guys to take it to 6 games so I can cash in on some money.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

That'll do nicely preds.