Seattle

[krsmith17 7,191]

32 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

So, as we sit, barring ANY trades, here is how I would do the protection list:

Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, Namestikov, Rasmussen, Timashov

Hronek, Lindstrom, Stecher

Greiss

...which means, I hope Yzerman trades Cholowski so we don't lose him for nothing.

We'll see how the season goes, but as of now, I think I would protect Svechnikov, or maybe even Smith, over Timashov.

I would also protect Cholowski over both Lindstrom and Stecher. But again, see how the season plays out. A lot can change over the course of a season, between development, trades, etc.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

So is it the 4th overall draft position that will automatically go the Seattle? 

[LeftWinger 4,959]

On 10/15/2020 at 10:52 AM, The 91 of Ryans said:

So is it the 4th overall draft position that will automatically go the Seattle? 

from everything I can find, they get the 3rd best odds at the #1OA. I am not sure if they can fall 3 spots though, maybe they can only fall to the 4th?

Here is how the NHL is gonna punish Arizona even more. Even though they forfeited their 1st round pick, the slot is still there, they will just skip over to the next pick like they did this year, for example pick 10, then pick 12. Arizona having pick 11. The punishment will be Arizona will win the 1st OA pick, but being forfeited the #2 team will choose the best player!

[Keep Your Stick On the Ice 67]

Svechnikov to Seattle...I'm so done waiting for him to find his game.

[Scott R Lucidi 450]

I am hoping our whole line up goes to Seattle and we get theirs.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

I am hoping our whole line up goes to Seattle and we get theirs.

Why? Are you trying to set back the rebuild? Seattle won't be another Vegas. Better than historical expansion teams, but what Vegas did won't be repeated.

[krsmith17 7,191]

8 hours ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

I am hoping our whole line up goes to Seattle and we get theirs.

 

6 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Why? Are you trying to set back the rebuild? Seattle won't be another Vegas. Better than historical expansion teams, but what Vegas did won't be repeated.

Yeah, Seattle won't be getting a single player as good / young as Larkin, Mantha or Hronek. Their best player will probably be Bertuzzi or Fabbri tier. Teams aren't going to make trades giving up multiple high end players / prospects again.

[Scott R Lucidi 450]

4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

 

Yeah, Seattle won't be getting a single player as good / young as Larkin, Mantha or Hronek. Their best player will probably be Bertuzzi or Fabbri tier. Teams aren't going to make trades giving up multiple high end players / prospects again.

We will see.  Vegas was instantly good for some reason.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

5 hours ago, Scott R Lucidi said:

We will see.  Vegas was instantly good for some reason.

1.Vegas was able to take advantage of some teams who hadn't prepared for the expansion draft as well as they should have. You won't see that happen again. Teams will be better prepared this time around. 

2. Vegas brought in some guys who played way better than anyone expected when given bigger roles. That's unlikely to happen again.

3. Vegas, as a team, way overachieved. I wouldn't call it "lightning im a bottle", but something close to that. Vegas should not have been that good with that roster. They haven't repeated that measure of success since, which you would expect if they were really that good.

The likelihood that Seattle repeats any of what Vegas was able to do is small. They won't be a 20 win team, but they won't be a playoff team either.

5 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

>Vegas won't be good
>Vegas is good

>Seattle won't be good
>Seattle is...

Trust me guys, this time it will be different. I swear. Just trust me.

Totally. I won the lottery once, therefore I should expect to win everytime I play. That's logic.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

2 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

1. Teams will again go "all in" before the playoffs, as they always do, and be forced to lose good players in the expansion later down the line

2. If Seattle learned anything from Vegas they will target exactly the same types of players who will flourish in larger roles

3. Vegas has gone to the post season each year with deep runs 2/3 years. They're a good team, not at all a fluke.

Bold prediction when you don't even know their roster yet and Vegas proved it can be done.

Not bold at all. Teams will protect their best players. Seattle is still getting 2nd tier players at best. They're not getting top line forwards or top pair D, but still lots of middle 6 F and 2nd/3rd pair D. That's not playoff caliber, but still better than being bottom feeders. I don't think that's a particularly "bold" prediction.

[marcaractac 3,963]

3 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Teams protected their best players against Vegas. Vegas got what at the time was considered 2nd tier players at best. They didn't get top line forwards or top pair D, but still got lots of middle 6 F and 2nd/3rd pair D. That not only was playoff caliber, it was stanley cup finals caliber.

Anaheim traded Theodore to keep Vatanen. Let that sink in. Everyone knew Theodore's potential at the time of that trade. Not only that, they traded Vatanen that same damn season. 

Florida mismanaged their roster so badly that they gave up Smith AND Marchessault. 

Gotta imagine teams will be more aware of this type of s*** when it comes to Seattle.

[marcaractac 3,963]

19 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Classic hindsight is 20/20.

Vatanen at the time was a steady 2-way, 40 pt Dman for the Ducks who was logging big minutes for them every night. They sacrificed future for the now. Had they known Theodore was 100% gonna be a superstar Dman and Vatanen would quickly decline after this... I'm sure they would have acted differently, but they didn't.

Florida had in Marchessault a 5'9" forward with one decent season, and a Reilly Smith coming off a really bad 37 pt season for them. Had they known Marchy was due to become a consistent 65 pt top6 forward, and Smith would return to 50 pts, and even up his game to a 60 pt forward... I'm sure they would have acted differently, bu they didn't know that.

It's all a gamble, and Seattle is certainly going to win some of these gambles that teams make just like Vegas did.

Vatenen has never hit 40 points in his entire NHL career. I mean, he was a 40 point dman in the AHL, so i'll give you that. It was a known bad trade at the time, and it looks even worse now. Especially considering the Ducks were well into their decline at this point and should have been hanging on to their top prospects.  

Marchessault scored 30 in his first full NHL season. He was only flirting with making the NHL full time before that. You make it sound as if he was some useless guy who came out with one banger of a year. Smith had a down year on a bad team. It happens.

It's not the fact that they lost Smith to Vegas. It's not the fact that they lost Marchessault to Vegas. It's that they lost Smith AND Marchessault to Vegas. Florida could have done nothing and just lost one of these guys. They traded Smith to ensure they drafted Marchessault because they were afraid to lose ******* Jason Demers. Who they pretty well immediately traded for Jamie McGinn....

So please, continue to bless us all with your knowledge of how giving up Smith and Marchessault for Jamie McGinn is hindsight. 

Hindsight is William Karlsson coming out scoring the way he did in Vegas. Theodore, Marchessault, and Smith? Not so much. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by marcaractac

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

8 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Teams protected their best players against Vegas. Vegas got what at the time was considered 2nd tier players at best. They didn't get top line forwards or top pair D, but still got lots of middle 6 F and 2nd/3rd pair D. That not only was playoff caliber, it was stanley cup finals caliber.

Yes, but you have to admit that a roster made up of 2nd tier players SHOULD NOT be a playoff team, let alone a Cup finalist. I seriously question why you would think that another franchise built presumably the same way should expect the same result as their predecessor when logic says otherwise.

[Akakabuto 1,750]

You are all correct. Teams will be hesitant to make the same kind of deals they made the last time. Don't forget Vegas also picked up 5 extra - including two 1st - draft picks in the process. But the kind gamble teams made that Sneed talks about will also happen again and Seattle will in some of those cases come out the winner. There is also the fresh start aspect of it. Some players will benefit from a change of enviroment and getting a clean slate/second chance. Can't get a fresher start than a new franchise.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Akakabuto

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

46 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Why not?

Vegas has proved a deep well-coached team lacking superstars can consistently go deep in the playoffs.

What's the logic? It's been shown Vegas wasn't a fluke. They've consistently made the postseason and gone deep 2/3 years. Why wouldn't a similarly built team be able to achieve the same results?

Because a team void of high end talent is typically not very good. We literally have decades of professional sports that prove it.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

On 11/20/2020 at 7:08 PM, Wait&Sneed said:

Okay, so how did Vegas manages to become such a successful team?

If you've ever been to Vegas, you would know that sometimes you hit the jackpot when the odds say you shouldn't.

Vegas had a lot of things fall just right from the beginning. They literally "got lucky". I mentioned several of them already. 

Expecting a 2nd expansion team to be able to repeat what Vegas did is like expecting a team that just won the Cup to repeat that feat the next year. Even the best team needs a little "luck" on their side to win. No one expects things to fall the same way again. 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

7 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Now your argument is Vegas just got lucky?

To some degree....yes. Like it or not, luck plays a part in winning and losing, success and failure. Good drafting, ownership, scouting, development, coaching, and managing increases your odds of success. But you're still only playing the odds. The things you can't control can make or break a season just as much as the things you can. That's "luck". Vegas had things fall overwhelmingly in their favor from the start. You can't credit their success based solely on their coaching, drafting, managing, etc. All of which they did very well. They also benefitted from uncontrollable/unpredictable factors working out for them as well. That is "luck".

Edited November 24, 2020 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[chaps80 1,591]

The fact that Vegas was able to become so competitive so quickly says a lot about the parity in today's NHL after 15 years of the cap. Roster spots are harder to get, everyone contributes. The 4th line, bottom pairing, and backup goaltender on most rosters are all very solid vets or talented rookies now. They used to be lazy/out of shape grinders/enforcers and D you could throw out to give 1-3 and the top pairings a quick rest and serviceable goalies who rode the pine for 60-70 games a year and give the no 1 a night off once in awhile, instead of 50-55 in a clear cut no 1 sitch, or 40 in a 1a/1b sitch. Anything positive they brought was a bonus.

Pick through who the teams leave unprotected again only a few years after Vegas did. Nothings changed...there WILL be some stars and lots of talent available.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Like what?

Like what?

Poor management by other teams that Vegas benefitted from. Players they acquired that they should not have been able to. Secondary players who played way above what anyone expected of them. 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

3 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Like what?

Like whom?

So they seemed to be able compile an entire group of players underappreciated by their current teams? Like Moneyball or something? Probably just coming up aces on every selection though I'm sure...

Really? I'm not going to repeat examples that I know you've already been given. Read the last couple pages.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

7 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

And ive debunked them. Youre speaking in baseless platitudes, and of course theres nothing behind the curtain as soom as i ask for specifics. Go ahead. Bow out. 

 

 

Are you sure? I must have missed that. If you would like to, there are numerous articles available that discuss it. Google "How did the Golden Knights get so good" or something similar to that and you'll find numerous links that discuss it. 

 

Cliff Notes:

1.MAF

 

2. Bad player management by teams like CBJ, FLA, and Anaheim.

 

3. Expansion players playing far better than anyone expected.

 

4. Team gelling way better than expected considering none of the guys had played together before.

 

5. Unexpected flat salary cap in place for the next season that left several teams scrambling.

 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

46 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

I'm truly sorry that your opinions are based on what google spits out at you.

Moving past that...

1. Okay and? MAF proves LV is lucky?

2. You think that suddenly with Seattle all teams will magically have the foresight to manage all their players correctly? Interesting

3. That's good scouting

4. That's good coaching

5. Even more reason why Seattle will get an even better team than LV did

I love that you've back-peddled back into platitudes again btw. You don't often see this. I'd love to talk about exactly why you think LV is so lucky as soon as you can pin it down.

Backpedaling? Where? When? You think that Seattle is going to end up with a 3 time Cup winning goalie and be traded a pick to take them? You think teams won't be better prepared this time around? You think Seattle is going to overachieve at every level (GM, coaching, roster) the same way LV did? Okay. You stick by that. I'll stick with logic and likelihood.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

13 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Perhaps backpedaling was the wrong word. More like talking in circles. You cite loose platitudes, and then when I ask you to cite specific examples you can't. Then you go right back to citing loose platitudes.

I think Seattle is going to get great players just like this.

I think teams will make the same mistakes they always do.This instance isn't special.

I think an entirely fresh slate is more valuable than anyone realizes. I think with parity it's absolutely possible to build a cup contending team from expansion. As displayed by LV.

You can be whomever you want in your head movies I guess.

We'll find out when it happens. In the meantime, I don't expect Seattle to get a goalie with a MAF pedigree. I don't expect Francis, or their coaching staff, to do as good of a job as Vegas did. I also don't expect Seattle to find the number of gems in the expansion draft that Vegas did. I also don't expect Seattle to gel as well as a team as Vegas did. I just think there's too many things that have to happen just right to repeat Vegas' success, and I think Seattle repeating what Vegas did is unlikely, though certainly not impossible.

[bIueadams 776]

Frans Nielsen will be joining Seattles front office in player development.

Kraken had a rough - but as expected - first season. They look poised to take the next step now though. 

Burakovsky - Wright - Eberle

Schwartz - Beniers - Bjorkstrand

Gourde - Wennberg - Donskoi

Tanev - McCann - Geekie

 

Oleksiak - Dunn

Larsson - Schultz

Soucy - Borgen

 

Grubauer

Dreidger

 

This team could do some serious damage this year. Especially in the west. 

 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

4 hours ago, bIueadams said:

Frans Nielsen will be joining Seattles front office in player development.

Kraken had a rough - but as expected - first season. They look poised to take the next step now though. 

Burakovsky - Wright - Eberle

Schwartz - Beniers - Bjorkstrand

Gourde - Wennberg - Donskoi

Tanev - McCann - Geekie

 

Oleksiak - Dunn

Larsson - Schultz

Soucy - Borgen

 

Grubauer

Dreidger

 

This team could do some serious damage this year. Especially in the west. 

 

based Kraken fan