Red Wings Expansion Draft Protected List

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

8 minutes ago, barabbas16 said:

Well, there is also the bit where the GM (inexplicably to pretty much everyone) protected Howard instead of Mrazek... which is what all of the speculation is founded on.... because the goaltender protection decision doesn't make any sense without something like the Mrazek attitude problem theory.

I guess the other side is the Holland is complete garbage argument... but I'm not sure that I've seen anything from the Red Wings organization stating that either.

You're right that it's speculation, but it seems only natural to try to make sense of the decision.  And, that theory seems at least somewhat plausible.

That and you have the walk out on practice incident. The playing Coreau over Mrazek. Pretty reputable sources backing up the attitude narrative. Guys like Malik saying he is a very cocky person. And now yes Holland favoring Howard over him.

[krsmith17 7,191]

40 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I think about it like this...

Say, due to the expansion draft, Holland could only get max a 2nd for Mrazek, and pulls the trigger on the trade.

Mrazek gone + Vegas selects XO = We gain a 2nd

If the trade doesn't happen...

Vegas selects Mrazek = We gain nothing

The bottom line here is: Is XO worth more to Holland than that 2nd? I'm betting he is. If that's the case, the 2nd scenario is more appropriate.

I'm guessing you would have rather seen Vegas selects XO = We gain nothing. But it seems like perhaps Kenny's young D-men are more valuable to him than Mrazek at this point.

A potential elite (at worst decent) goaltender should be worth more to a team than a potential 2nd pair (at worst 3rd pair) defenseman. Holland could have protected Mrazek and Vegas wouldn't have touched Howard. We would have had a great duo for another season, and make a decision next summer...

11 minutes ago, barabbas16 said:

Well, there is also the bit where the GM (inexplicably to pretty much everyone) protected Howard instead of Mrazek... which is what all of the speculation is founded on.... because the goaltender protection decision doesn't make any sense without something like the Mrazek attitude problem theory.

I guess the other side is the Holland is complete garbage argument... but I'm not sure that I've seen anything from the Red Wings organization stating that either.

You're right that it's speculation, but it seems only natural to try to make sense of the decision.  And, that theory seems at least somewhat plausible.

You're absolutely right. The decision to leave Mrazek exposed, doesn't make any sense. As I've said, I don't buy the attitude problem bulls***. Is it possible that Holland may have lost it? Is it possible that he's not the same GM he was 10+ years ago? That's my assumption. He's made a lot of bad (horrible) decisions over the past few years, and they seem to be getting progressively worse. IF Mrazek is taken in the expansion draft, I do hope that Chris Ilitch strongly considers the future of this team, and who should be managing it going forward... I don't think it should be Holland.

[joesuffP 1,746]

Exposing a player that the organization doesn't like is not the same as losing your touch as a GM. Management doesn't like Mrazek and doesn't see a future here for him and they respect Howard as an inspiring leader for the younger players and the culture going forward. That's the decision made. You have to at least wait to see if he's claimed or how his career plays out or you've gotten yourself all bent out of shape for nothing. This could end up looking like Holland letting Bruner walk and how he was such an idiot for that. I highly doubt he's claimed first of all, secondly if he's claimed 4M of salary lost and we keep Sheahan or Ouellette. I'm personally okay with letting a struggling goalie with attitude leave and just moving on. He's created a lot of problems and hasn't played well for a year and a half. If Vegas flips him for a pick or something oh well

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

23 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

A potential elite (at worst decent) goaltender should be worth more to a team than a potential 2nd pair (at worst 3rd pair) defenseman. Holland could have protected Mrazek and Vegas wouldn't have touched Howard. We would have had a great duo for another season, and make a decision next summer...

You're absolutely right. The decision to leave Mrazek exposed, doesn't make any sense. As I've said, I don't buy the attitude problem bulls***. Is it possible that Holland may have lost it? Is it possible that he's not the same GM he was 10+ years ago? That's my assumption. He's made a lot of bad (horrible) decisions over the past few years, and they seem to be getting progressively worse. IF Mrazek is taken in the expansion draft, I do hope that Chris Ilitch strongly considers the future of this team, and who should be managing it going forward... I don't think it should be Holland.

Then why wasn't Mrazek traded? If the basis of your argument is "Holland is an idiot" that's pretty weak ground to stand on.

[krsmith17 7,191]

11 minutes ago, joesuffP said:

Exposing a player that the organization doesn't like is not the same as losing your touch as a GM. Management doesn't like Mrazek and doesn't see a future here for him and they respect Howard as an inspiring leader for the younger players and the culture going forward. That's the decision made. You have to at least wait to see if he's claimed or how his career plays out or you've gotten yourself all bent out of shape for nothing. This could end up looking like Holland letting Bruner walk and how he was such an idiot for that. I highly doubt he's claimed first of all, secondly if he's claimed 4M of salary lost and we keep Sheahan or Ouellette. I'm personally okay with letting a struggling goalie with attitude leave and just moving on. He's created a lot of problems and hasn't played well for a year and a half. If Vegas flips him for a pick or something oh well

I didn't say this one move is the reason I believe he has lost touch as a GM, in fact I said the opposite. It's a build up of all the bad decisions over the past 5+ years. This is just the icing on the cake for me. I understand that the selection hasn't been made yet, and there is an off chance that Mrazek doesn't get picked, but the fact that the option is there is my issue. Mrazek should never have been available, unless like I've said, there is some sort of deal in place that no one else is aware of. Anyway, difference of opinion. I think Mrazek is much more crucial to the success of this team going forward than anyone else exposed. Others disagree, and that's fine.

6 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Then why wasn't Mrazek traded? If the basis of your argument is "Holland is an idiot" that's pretty weak ground to stand on.

We already went over this... Either teams weren't shopping for a goaltender or Holland wasn't actively shopping Mrazek. The market wasn't there before, but it most definitely will be after the expansion draft...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

13 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I didn't say this one move is the reason I believe he has lost touch as a GM, in fact I said the opposite. It's a build up of all the bad decisions over the past 5+ years. This is just the icing on the cake for me. I understand that the selection hasn't been made yet, and there is an off chance that Mrazek doesn't get picked, but the fact that the option is there is my issue. Mrazek should never have been available, unless like I've said, there is some sort of deal in place that no one else is aware of. Anyway, difference of opinion. I think Mrazek is much more crucial to the success of this team going forward than anyone else exposed. Others disagree, and that's fine.

We already went over this... Either teams weren't shopping for a goaltender or Holland wasn't actively shopping Mrazek. The market wasn't there before, but it most definitely will be after the expansion draft...

You're just giving me the impression that you think there's no rhyme or reason to what Holland is doing, which I'm sure is far from the case.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

2 hours ago, ShanahanMan said:

Hasn't been mentioned much, but I also think exposing Nosek was a dumb move as well. This guy has some real solid potential. 

Nosek might be as good as Sheahan some day.  There's no way Vegas takes a guy like that unless they want him for their AHL team.

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

A potential elite (at worst decent) goaltender should be worth more to a team than a potential 2nd pair (at worst 3rd pair) defenseman. Holland could have protected Mrazek and Vegas wouldn't have touched Howard. We would have had a great duo for another season, and make a decision next summer...

 

His numbers were near the bottom of the league for goaltenders for over a year now.  That's not decent, and it certainly doesn't suggest he can be elite.  

1 hour ago, e_prime said:

All of which has been overhyped by placing it under a microscope, over-analyzed, and repeated.

Until I read a statement from his teammates, coaches, or Ken Holland that Mrazek has a bad attitude, is a problem in the locker room, or is uncoachable, the it all remains speculation from writers amplified by fan bias. 

St. Lame is a mouth piece.  If she writes it, it's what Holland wants her to write.  I 100% believe Mrazek's attitude was a major issue.

[derblaueClaus 1,668]

Well, that piece got me thinking.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/down-goes-brown-five-best-goalies-to-be-exposed-in-expansion-drafts

 

Quote

Dominik Hasek (1993)

Yes, this really did happen.

Hasek's unexpected rise from eccentric but ineffective backup to The Dominator has been well-documented. But what's often forgotten is that he could have been a Panther or a Mighty Duck.

By 1993, Hasek had been in the league for three years, but hadn't secured a starting job and boasted a career save percentage of under .900. At 28 years old, there was little indication of what may be to come.

So when the Sabres had to choose between Hasek and the future Hall of Famer they'd just traded a 50-goal scorer and a first-round pick for, they went the obvious route and protected Grant Fuhr. With plenty of goalies available – the NHL had changed the rules to limit teams to protecting just one goaltender after allowing two in 1992 – they didn't even bother cutting any side deals to make sure Hasek stayed safe.

It paid off, as neither Florida or Anaheim picked him. The next year, he took over after Fuhr was hurt and dominated the league, winning the Vezina in his first season as starter. He won six of the next eight in all, mixing in two Hart Trophies along the way, establishing himself as one of the best to ever play the position.

How does history change if the Ducks or Panthers gamble on Hasek instead of playing it safe with, say, Glenn Healey or Mark Fitzpatrick? We'll never know, and it's probably not a thought that many Sabres fans want to even contemplate. (For what it's worth, Ducks' GM Jack Ferreira later said that Hasek wasn't even on their radar.)

Let's hope that history repeats itself.

[joesuffP 1,746]

Mrazek's comments, leaving practice early, and every writer covering him has mentioned his attitude problems. That's enough for me. Add that to him not playing well for a year and a half, being overpaid, and getting benched at the Worlds, I guess I don't have much faith in him. If he stays and performs well than I'll be happy, I don't hold grudges on players but I'm not counting on it

Edited June 21, 2017 by joesuffP

[amato 3,210]

huh....

 

[chaps80 1,591]

Even if he has another season with a GAA over 3 and a save % barely over .900?

Nope, if he stinks up his last year of his deal, let him go. One bad season can be forgiven with a young developing goalie, but two in a row, move on. Maybe a change of teams will help him.

That being said, nearly the whole team had a s*** season. Coreau had worse numbers and Howard only played 26 games because of two injuries. Could he have kept up his solid numbers for longer? Who knows. It's a small sample size to justify protecting him, just like Mrazek's attitude is a poor excuse to expose him, but it is what it is.


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[derblaueClaus 1,668]

1 minute ago, amato said:

huh....

 

Was about to post this. Odd choice if true.

[ShanahanMan 473]

1 minute ago, derblaueClaus said:

Was about to post this. Odd choice if true.

Called it.

[HockeytownRules19 902]

 

[amato 3,210]

6 minutes ago, derblaueClaus said:

Was about to post this. Odd choice if true.

Hopefully it's true and then mrazek pulls a hasek like you posted earlier  

[derblaueClaus 1,668]

8 minutes ago, amato said:

Hopefully it's true and then mrazek pulls a hasek like you posted earlier  

Amen to that.

It probably is true btw.

 

That is why it's leaked.

Edited June 21, 2017 by derblaueClaus

[SwedeLundin77 460]

Great.... still saddled with bad contracts, including Mrazek's.  Holland better work his arse off to trade for what this team needs.  If true, we'll be losing a solid 3rd/4th liner that is still growing.

[ShanahanMan 473]

Not odd choice at all. Only player besides Mrazek actually worth anything. The rest of our players are garbage.

[Jacksoni 418]

I don't like losing Nosek but I prefer him over Mrazek. Yes, he has been a bum this season. But if he gets his s*** together he can win us playoff series. For me if he stays it's a make or break season next.

Draft coming up soon enough. Wish us luck.

[BinMucker94 302]

If it's Nosek we get no cap relief plus after watching the AHL playoffs I kinda like the way Nosek plays. Not a star by any means but could've been an upgrade to our 3rd/4th line down the road.

[derblaueClaus 1,668]

The Isles seem to have done this :

If true, they robbed Vegas.

[amato 3,210]

1 minute ago, derblaueClaus said:

The Isles seem to have done this :

If true, they robbed Vegas.

 

15th overall pick is a pretty decent haul for Vegas.. I don't know about robbed. Now the question is, what do the isles give up for duchene and/or eberle? 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

If Vegas selects Nosek, that should stand as a testament to how overvalued Mrazek is around here. 

[e_prime 1,936]

 So beat writers are the mouthpiece for Ken Holland?  Great.  Nothing like direct communication and transparency when you have the beat writers to do your work for you.  Especially when your handpicked mouthpiece says that our Nosek being picked over the more experienced NHL talent we have is an indictment of the team and talent... but whatever... maybe it IS time for Ken Holland to go.

I'm still not sure this is the way that you go about "dealing with it."

We now have a goaltender who, in all likelihood, will be playing well enough to raise his trade value and get out of town.  Yay!  Guess that complete rebuild will be happening sooner than later!

[derblaueClaus 1,668]

2 minutes ago, amato said:

 

15th overall pick is a pretty decent haul for Vegas.. I don't know about robbed. Now the question is, what do the isles give up for duchene and/or eberle? 

  They get Grabovski off the books and make Vegas essentially waste their pick on Berube. Robbed may be hyperbole, but that's a pretty decent return for a late first rounder.