Ken Holland contract extension watch

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Holland moving upstairs will only help if they bring in someone from outside who won't be controlled by Holland's "suggestions."

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

7 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

Holland moving upstairs will only help if they bring in someone from outside who won't be controlled by Holland's "suggestions."

Chris Illitch ---> Jim Devellano ---> Ken Holland

Clearly Holland has been under the control of Devellano's, and therefore Chris Illitch's, "suggestions" this entire time.

[LeftWinger 4,936]

Holland didn't fire Blashill, I'm thinking, because Kenny only has thus year left. Why fire Blashill and search for a new coaching staff just to have the new GM next year have to search for his own coaching staff. 

If it is indeed blashs last year, then If we miss the playoffs, both GM and coaching staff will move on.

Edited July 25, 2017 by LeftWinger

[kliq 3,755]

4 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Holland didn't fire Blashill, I'm thinking, because Kenny only has thus year left. Why fire Blashill and search for a new coaching staff just to have the new GM next year have to search for his own coaching staff. 

If it is indeed blashs last year, then If we miss the playoffs, both GM and coaching staff will move on.

I dont think the playoffs should be the bar, for Blashill it should be what does he get out of his players. If it's a repeat of last year, I think he will not be renewed. As far as Holland goes, I think that's more wishful thinking on your part as I dont see Holland going anywhere regardless of how we finish.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, kliq said:

I dont think the playoffs should be the bar, for Blashill it should be what does he get out of his players. If it's a repeat of last year, I think he will not be renewed. As far as Holland goes, I think that's more wishful thinking on your part as I dont see Holland going anywhere regardless of how we finish.

Yeah it would be one thing if our older players regressed and the young guys stepped up (which was my understanding of why Blash was hired, ability to coach the young players) but everyone regressed besides Zberg and maybe Mantha (who had the benefit of playing with Zberg). And Zberg would probably have the same season even if a drunk chimpanzee was coaching him.

Playoffs ins't the bar for me, it's forward progress from the guys who will be taking over for the old core. We didn't see that, and in fact we saw mostly the opposite. If we miss the playoffs again but see significant improvements from a mix of Mrazek, Larkin, Mantha, AA, XO, Jensen, Sproul, Sheahan, and possibly even Bertuzzi I will be happy with Blash. Another year of downturns and growing pains will be very disappointing. Though it's hard to imagine it could be much worse.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

10 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Chris Illitch ---> Jim Devellano ---> Ken Holland

Clearly Holland has been under the control of Devellano's, and therefore Chris Illitch's, "suggestions" this entire time.

Illitch doesn't seem to pay much attention as long as there's money coming in, and I don't think Jimmy D has had much say in several years.  This seems to be the Ken Holland Show.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

9 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Illitch doesn't seem to pay much attention as long as there's money coming in, and I don't think Jimmy D has had much say in several years.  This seems to be the Ken Holland Show.

Based on what?

[kliq 3,755]

5 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

There's no evidence either way.

That said - I must agree with DickieDunn - Holland has been running the show while the Ilitch family, and Devellano watch from afar. 

Besides - it might be a good idea for ol'Jimmy D to keep his mouth shut (referring to his comments about Mantha, and the lockout a few years ago).

 

I tend to agree with this when it comes to the individual moves, but when it comes to the overall direction ie: "rebuild on the fly", I cant help but feel that is a directive from ownership. If Illitch wanted a tear down, there would be a tear down.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 hours ago, F.Michael said:

There's no evidence either way.

That said - I must agree with DickieDunn - Holland has been running the show while the Ilitch family, and Devellano watch from afar. 

Besides - it might be a good idea for ol'Jimmy D to keep his mouth shut (referring to his comments about Mantha, and the lockout a few years ago).

 

Like you said, there's no evidence of this, so I'm a little confused why your convinced of it?

For all we know Illitch is almost completely hands off but is directing Holland to go for the playoffs each year. For all we know Devellano has a heavy hand in player evaluation and contract negotiations. We just don't know either way.

Regardless, staff (team/coach/scouts/trainers) are a reflection of management, and management is a reflection of ownership. Blame goes all the way to the top.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

4 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Based on what?

Based on CI's comments, the fact that Jimmy hasn't been GM in decades, and that Holland seems to do whatever he feels like.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

20 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

Based on CI's comments, the fact that Jimmy hasn't been GM in decades, and that Holland seems to do whatever he feels like.

Which are what exactly?

20 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

Based on CI's comments, the fact that Jimmy hasn't been GM in decades, and that Holland seems to do whatever he feels like.

He's alternate governor to Chris Illitch, and senior vice president ahead of Ken Holland. He's higher up the chain than Holland and can therefore influence decision making. What makes you think he doesn't?

20 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

Based on CI's comments, the fact that Jimmy hasn't been GM in decades, and that Holland seems to do whatever he feels like.

What makes you think that?

Edited July 26, 2017 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

What exactly is a GM's role in the NHL - to 'run' the team - right?

Granted - many owners/presidents/vice presidents of pro sports franchises have their say, but my impression has been that it's been Holland running the show in Detroit.

Again - no evidence to prove it, but it's just a personal opinion.

I agree Holland is running the show. But to think Chris and Jim just give Ken the keys without any strings or their own input is kind of silly. No organization, sports or not, works that way. I'm sure ownership has demands and goals they ask Holland to meet. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 hour ago, F.Michael said:

I'm certain Ilitch, and Jimmy D do have their say - why wouldn't they?

 

Your original comment was that the Illitch family and Devellano watch from afar. I'm saying I really doubt that that's the case.

[Dabura 12,206]

Everyone knows the Swedish Mafia is running the show.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Dabura

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

15 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

Okay - you're splitting hairs here.

Holland IMHO runs the team as he sees fit, and he's been considered one of the best GM's in the NHL for the past 20 plus years. Are you suggesting that Holland is some sort of 'lackey' - doing the bidding of others? I personally don't see that - especially if you take into consideration that the Wings are up against the cap (as in Holland is spending Ilitch $$$ freely), and Jimmy D seems to be enjoying his time doing whatever he does - which to me it doesn't appear to be much.

Both are kept up with what's going on within the organization, but to me neither seem to be running the show...That's all Holland.

Clear as mud?

 

 

 

 

Clear as mud.

Read back what I wrote. I'm not suggesting Holland is a lackey. I agreed with you that Holland is running the show. 

Holland is the face and voice of management, but that doesn't mean their is one brain behind that face/voice. Holland I'm sure has final say on most executive decisions, but there's other forces guiding his hand. Perhaps Illitch doesn't want him to rebuild, and wants to continue to try for the playoffs now. If that's the case Holland's strategy shifts from inserting young players to signing guys like Nielsen and Daley in order to contend.

I'm pretty sure Devellano isn't retained to do nothing, and surely advises Holland on many decisions. Just because he doesn't speak out publicly much doesn't mean he's an absentee boss. Point being, Holland isn't some lone rogue GM with his bosses watching from afar, he has a team of people below and above him that influence him and guide his decisions.

As along as the team remains profitable, I'm sure Chris is fine with Holland spending his money as he sees fit, per their agreed upon direction of the team.

Edited July 26, 2017 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[RightWinger 5]

I think that Holland is doing a great job and that he has earned a lengthy extension. I can definitely see that he has a clear plan for the future and is working hard to see it through. The future looks bright and im very excited to see what happens next!

[kliq 3,755]

1 hour ago, F.Michael said:

Okay - you're splitting hairs here.

Holland IMHO runs the team as he sees fit, and he's been considered one of the best GM's in the NHL for the past 20 plus years. Are you suggesting that Holland is some sort of 'lackey' - doing the bidding of others? I personally don't see that - especially if you take into consideration that the Wings are up against the cap (as in Holland is spending Ilitch $$$ freely), and Jimmy D seems to be enjoying his time doing whatever he does - which to me it doesn't appear to be much.

Both are kept up with what's going on within the organization, but to me neither seem to be running the show...That's all Holland, and he's been on a 'long leash'  for many years.

Clear as mud?

I think what he is getting at which I agree with, is that most owners give their GM a direction....that direction is typically (win now, tank/win later, re-tool, shed salary, stay competitive etc.). I believe that the direction given to Holland by ownership is stay competitive/re-tool, implying that if the direction was say "tank" Holland's moves would be different.

I dont think CI and JD oversee every literal move KH does, and I think the Abby, Helm, Glendening contracts etc. are Holland's doing. BUT I think that given his direction (ie. stay competitive/re-tool, these are the moves he see's fit doing. If his direction was to tank/complete rebuild, I dont see any of those 3 being re-signed.

I think putting all blame on Holland is wishful thinking by the fans. Fans love to create narratives that sound like "Get rid of blank, and everything will get better". Its alot harder to accept as a fan that ownership is behind something because that is harder to change.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

6 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

I can honestly say that I could see both sides of this discussion, but given Holland's tenure, responsibility, success - I am under the impression that he's the man in charge.

Now that said - with the way things are going in terms of the standings - a new arena - Chris  Ilitch taking over from his father - things could change if they haven't already.

Chris has been in charge for a while now. I don't want to dig for the article but I believe Mike gave him reigns to the team around 2010 -12ish so that he (mike) could focus on the Tigers.

I was hoping there would be a shift in the direction of the team with the bad finish and Mike's passing (I suspected Chris might want to hold off a rebuild for his dad) but I don't think that's happening. I wanted to sign no FA's and insert youth.  But instead we shed no big or bad contracts and added Daley. Seems like business as usual from management. My suspicion is they think last season was so bad and unlucky it can't possibly happen again, and that we may have a chance to squeak into the playoffs again. They might actually be right about that, but it remains to be seen. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

24 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

And this might prove you're right.

As far as I can remember - the Ilitch family is sorta aggressive, passionate, and see themselves as winners.

I too would've rather seen this team go with youth, and yet here again here we are up against the cap considering the signings Holland has made.

Instead of waving the white flag, and go the route of a rebuild that we have seen other franchises commit to - the Wings seem intent on not doing that just yet, and come across as wishing to be as competitive as they can be (yet keep in mind - is this Holland, or Chris Ilitch? Me thinks it could be a form of pride playing it's hand here, and thus maybe the younger Ilitch is calling the shots).

Rumor has it Chris is open to selling the Tigers with the mess their in, but wants the Wings to remain in Illitch possession for sentimental reasons.

[LeftWinger 4,936]

On Wed Jul 26 2017 at 7:08 PM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Rumor has it Chris is open to selling the Tigers with the mess their in, but wants the Wings to remain in Illitch possession for sentimental reasons.

Funny, I heard that same thing from my buddy at work who plays pickup hockey with a Wings trainer, Russ. But I didn't want to say anything about as to avoid any of the old "uncles, neighbor's, dentists, dog sitters, cousin stuff" but it's nice to see others are hearing it too!

[Dabura 12,206]

Kid Rock for GM. Make the Red Wings Great Again.

[Andy Pred 48 337]

The new arena should have had a new GM , New coach, New roster , New direction and a new clearer future. 

Unfortunately we are going to see the same trend that is in steady decline and wasting $s instead of building from within with our higher end prospects sooner rather than the 3-5 year ripening period.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

4 hours ago, Andy Pred 48 said:

The new arena should have had a new GM , New coach, New roster , New direction and a new clearer future. 

Unfortunately we are going to see the same trend that is in steady decline and wasting $s instead of building from within with our higher end prospects sooner rather than the 3-5 year ripening period.

Even if they went in a new direction, they're more or less stuck with most of the contracts until they expire.  Nobody is going to want them, retaining salary doesn't help much because unless they replace the traded player with someone making close to league minimum, and buyouts just spread the cap hit out to future seasons.  The l;onger they keep Holland around making the decisions, the more bad deals he's going to sign, and the longer it will take to clear them out.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

6 hours ago, F.Michael said:

Did I see it right that Kid Rock is gonna have sumthin like 4, or 5 nights at the LCA?

How can this guy be that popular?

That's Senator Rock to you sir

[krsmith17 7,191]

5 hours ago, Andy Pred 48 said:

The new arena should have had a new GM , New coach, New roster , New direction and a new clearer future. 

Unfortunately we are going to see the same trend that is in steady decline and wasting $s instead of building from within with our higher end prospects sooner rather than the 3-5 year ripening period.

No team ever goes through that drastic of a change in one offseason. I'm okay with Holland finishing off his current contract, and moving on after this season (hopefully). I'm also okay with giving Blashill one more season to see if he can figure things out. If Nelson continues to impress down in Grand Rapids though, I wouldn't mind giving him an opportunity in Detroit next season (I love his aggressive approach to the game). The roster shouldn't be completely revamped in one season, but if we could make two trades, one to offload a bad contract (Ericsson), and one to upgrade the defense, I'd consider it a major success. However, nothing else will happen, aside from placing a player (Kronwall / Ericsson) on LTIR. I think we have been going in a new direction. We've brought up a lot of kids earlier than we've been accustomed to in the past, and I think we will continue to do so in the coming years.