Ken Holland contract extension watch

[kliq 3,755]

6 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Even if they went in a new direction, they're more or less stuck with most of the contracts until they expire.  Nobody is going to want them, retaining salary doesn't help much because unless they replace the traded player with someone making close to league minimum, and buyouts just spread the cap hit out to future seasons.  The l;onger they keep Holland around making the decisions, the more bad deals he's going to sign, and the longer it will take to clear them out.

I feel this is a major misconception of moving in a different direction. You don't HAVE to get rid of every big contract in order to re-build. Look at the Leafs, they got rid of Kessel (retained 1.2mil), Pheneuf, and Clarkson plus some no name guys, kept guys like JVR, Bozak, Komarov, Lupol, Kadri etc. bottomed out got Matthews, signed a new coach and are now considered one of the best up and coming teams in the league.

If we were to bottom out this year and get a franchise player like Matthews, get a new coach, trade just a couple contracts (say Nielsen/Helm), trade E and retain salary, trade Green at deadline, and put Kronwall on LTIR (if his knees call for it) and not re-sign him then in 1 to 2 years from now we look like a completely different team.

Not saying this will happen, but its not like we are the Tigers stuck with massive ridiculous contracts.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Zetterberg, Abdelkader, Helm, Nielsen, Ericsson, Kronwall, Dekeyeser, Howard, Mrazek, Franzen, Daley all are on the books for over $3 mil this year.  Weiss is still on the books as a buy out, $2.6 mil this year and $1.667 mil for the next three years.  Glendening is getting double what he should be.

 

I have a hard time crapping on Holland for any of these.  At the time they were signed they were reasonable.

Zetterberg: Great deal when he signed it, the retroactive punishment for violating the spirit of the CBA makes this potentially hurt.

Franzen: Ditto.

Ericsson: Probably would have gotten at least that contract and maybe more on the market.  Injuries and an apparent fear of getting hurt again have turned him from a solid player into a waste of space.

Kronwall: Was a legit #1 D, although not elite.  Very good deal until his knee fell apart.  

Howard:Was paid like an average starting goalie, which he is.  When he's healthy and confident, he's one of the better goalies in the league.  Problem is, half the time he's hurt or is fighting the puck and is terrible.

Mrazek: Looked like he was on track to be a legit #1, until he as named the #1.  Apparent entitled attitude and refusal to listen to coaches about what his weaknesses were combined with the rest of the NHL figuring out said weaknesses led to him being one of the worst goalies in the league last year.  Looks like the team has soured on him and it may take a small miracle for him to stay after this year.

Weiss: They lost Filpulla, needed a #2 center, and the wrist injury he dealt with the year before was healed.  Then he hurt his groin, didn't say anything and made it worse, lost Babcock's confidence, and was a complete disaster.

The rest of these deals were terrible from day 1.

Daley: In a vacuum it's not a bad deal.  Given where the Wings are now, it was dumb.

Abdelkader: Took a grinder who had never scored much until he played with Datsyuk and Zetterberg for a year and rewarded him with a 7 year deal a year before he was set to be a free agent when he was starting to get close to the age players like him start slowing down.  What could go wrong with that?  I said the day he signed it he'd never score 20 goals in a season again, and it looks like I'm going to be right.

Helm: "Best 3rd line center in the league" gets moved to a scoring line, does nothing, still gets a 5 year deal for too much money.  Could have found someone almost as good for a lot less.

Dekeyser: Holland jumped the gun and paid him like was was 100% to continue to improve.  Was exposed when he was forced to play against better competition.

Glendening: Double the $ and term of what he should get.  The ultimate replaceable player who has little talent and gets by on hard work, basically a faster Matt Ellis.  Should have spent his career on a series of one and two year deals for near league minimum.

Nielsen: Aging center who put up the numbers he did because of who he played with as much as because of what he was.  He's only going to continue to decline.  Desperation signing, too long, too much money, and at a time when they should have been going with a youth movement.  Arguable the worst of the bunch, even looking at the others in hind sight.

[kliq 3,755]

1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:

Zetterberg, Abdelkader, Helm, Nielsen, Ericsson, Kronwall, Dekeyeser, Howard, Mrazek, Franzen, Daley all are on the books for over $3 mil this year.  Weiss is still on the books as a buy out, $2.6 mil this year and $1.667 mil for the next three years.  Glendening is getting double what he should be.

 

I have a hard time crapping on Holland for any of these.  At the time they were signed they were reasonable.

Zetterberg: Great deal when he signed it, the retroactive punishment for violating the spirit of the CBA makes this potentially hurt.

Franzen: Ditto.

Ericsson: Probably would have gotten at least that contract and maybe more on the market.  Injuries and an apparent fear of getting hurt again have turned him from a solid player into a waste of space.

Kronwall: Was a legit #1 D, although not elite.  Very good deal until his knee fell apart.  

Howard:Was paid like an average starting goalie, which he is.  When he's healthy and confident, he's one of the better goalies in the league.  Problem is, half the time he's hurt or is fighting the puck and is terrible.

Mrazek: Looked like he was on track to be a legit #1, until he as named the #1.  Apparent entitled attitude and refusal to listen to coaches about what his weaknesses were combined with the rest of the NHL figuring out said weaknesses led to him being one of the worst goalies in the league last year.  Looks like the team has soured on him and it may take a small miracle for him to stay after this year.

Weiss: They lost Filpulla, needed a #2 center, and the wrist injury he dealt with the year before was healed.  Then he hurt his groin, didn't say anything and made it worse, lost Babcock's confidence, and was a complete disaster.

The rest of these deals were terrible from day 1.

Daley: In a vacuum it's not a bad deal.  Given where the Wings are now, it was dumb.

Abdelkader: Took a grinder who had never scored much until he played with Datsyuk and Zetterberg for a year and rewarded him with a 7 year deal a year before he was set to be a free agent when he was starting to get close to the age players like him start slowing down.  What could go wrong with that?  I said the day he signed it he'd never score 20 goals in a season again, and it looks like I'm going to be right.

Helm: "Best 3rd line center in the league" gets moved to a scoring line, does nothing, still gets a 5 year deal for too much money.  Could have found someone almost as good for a lot less.

Dekeyser: Holland jumped the gun and paid him like was was 100% to continue to improve.  Was exposed when he was forced to play against better competition.

Glendening: Double the $ and term of what he should get.  The ultimate replaceable player who has little talent and gets by on hard work, basically a faster Matt Ellis.  Should have spent his career on a series of one and two year deals for near league minimum.

Nielsen: Aging center who put up the numbers he did because of who he played with as much as because of what he was.  He's only going to continue to decline.  Desperation signing, too long, too much money, and at a time when they should have been going with a youth movement.  Arguable the worst of the bunch, even looking at the others in hind sight.

Agree with most of what you said, I think you are too hard on Abby as a player, but I wont defend the 7 years.

Two things I would challenge. First would be the the Helm comment, in that I do agree given our team we should have let him walk, but I do not think we would have found someone almost as good for a lot less. We likely would have found someone not as good for a lot less, unless you are simply evaluating Helm based on his scoring. If you mean solely scoring, then I agree. 

The second is the DD signing. In today's NHL, and on our team especially top 4 D men are very hard to find, and I think we had to lock DD up. I agree his season last year was not the great, but with a solid partner on the second pairing, his 5mil cap hit would be ok (not great, but ok).

[BinMucker94 302]

8 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Zetterberg, Abdelkader, Helm, Nielsen, Ericsson, Kronwall, Dekeyeser, Howard, Mrazek, Franzen, Daley all are on the books for over $3 mil this year.  Weiss is still on the books as a buy out, $2.6 mil this year and $1.667 mil for the next three years.  Glendening is getting double what he should be.

 

I have a hard time crapping on Holland for any of these.  At the time they were signed they were reasonable.

Zetterberg: Great deal when he signed it, the retroactive punishment for violating the spirit of the CBA makes this potentially hurt.

Franzen: Ditto.

Ericsson: Probably would have gotten at least that contract and maybe more on the market.  Injuries and an apparent fear of getting hurt again have turned him from a solid player into a waste of space.

Kronwall: Was a legit #1 D, although not elite.  Very good deal until his knee fell apart.  

Howard:Was paid like an average starting goalie, which he is.  When he's healthy and confident, he's one of the better goalies in the league.  Problem is, half the time he's hurt or is fighting the puck and is terrible.

Mrazek: Looked like he was on track to be a legit #1, until he as named the #1.  Apparent entitled attitude and refusal to listen to coaches about what his weaknesses were combined with the rest of the NHL figuring out said weaknesses led to him being one of the worst goalies in the league last year.  Looks like the team has soured on him and it may take a small miracle for him to stay after this year.

Weiss: They lost Filpulla, needed a #2 center, and the wrist injury he dealt with the year before was healed.  Then he hurt his groin, didn't say anything and made it worse, lost Babcock's confidence, and was a complete disaster.

The rest of these deals were terrible from day 1.

Daley: In a vacuum it's not a bad deal.  Given where the Wings are now, it was dumb.

Abdelkader: Took a grinder who had never scored much until he played with Datsyuk and Zetterberg for a year and rewarded him with a 7 year deal a year before he was set to be a free agent when he was starting to get close to the age players like him start slowing down.  What could go wrong with that?  I said the day he signed it he'd never score 20 goals in a season again, and it looks like I'm going to be right.

Helm: "Best 3rd line center in the league" gets moved to a scoring line, does nothing, still gets a 5 year deal for too much money.  Could have found someone almost as good for a lot less.

Dekeyser: Holland jumped the gun and paid him like was was 100% to continue to improve.  Was exposed when he was forced to play against better competition.

Glendening: Double the $ and term of what he should get.  The ultimate replaceable player who has little talent and gets by on hard work, basically a faster Matt Ellis.  Should have spent his career on a series of one and two year deals for near league minimum.

Nielsen: Aging center who put up the numbers he did because of who he played with as much as because of what he was.  He's only going to continue to decline.  Desperation signing, too long, too much money, and at a time when they should have been going with a youth movement.  Arguable the worst of the bunch, even looking at the others in hind sight.

 

[blgillett 48]

On 6/30/2017 at 1:16 AM, kliq said:

Honestly I think he signs an extension unless the "Yzerman thing" pans out, which I really don't see happening. 

Yes I agree Yzerman is everyone's dream but he isn't going anywhere 

[kliq 3,755]

14 minutes ago, blgillett said:

Yes I agree Yzerman is everyone's dream but he isn't going anywhere 

Why would he? This fan base would just turn on him if he didnt turn it around right away. He is beloved here, no reason to ruin that.

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

Really hope Holland goes. Was a great GM in the non-cap era. Last few years have been a complete disaster.

[MileHighWingsGuy 178]

11 hours ago, blgillett said:

Yes I agree Yzerman is everyone's dream but he isn't going anywhere 

Everyone felt the same way when Elway became the GM of the Broncos...then we realized having a passionate guy that wants your team to be the best forever is the ultimate person to have in that job. Yzerman would take his fame and this team to new levels, mark my words.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

4 hours ago, Never_Retire_Steve said:

Really hope Holland goes. Was a great GM in the non-cap era. Last few years have been a complete disaster.

He was a great GM post cap too, what he did transitioning from no cap to cap was nothing short of genius.  But he stopped trying to adapt and thinks that because rebuilding on the fly worked once it will for sure work again, and he started overvaluing role players.

[Juklitz 85]

3 hours ago, F.Michael said:

I may be crazy, but am I the only one to think Draper might be in line for a 'greater' role within the organization?

I believe both Draper and Fischer should go up somehow...

[krsmith17 7,191]

8 hours ago, F.Michael said:

I may be crazy, but am I the only one to think Draper might be in line for a 'greater' role within the organization?

I think it will be between Martin and Draper when Holland moves up or out. In saying that, I think it would be a poor decision to hire anyone within the organization to become the next GM. This team needs a new look, new approach, and that starts from the top. I think the best thing for this team would be to go outside the organization to find Holland's replacement. Who? I have no idea...

[Learn2LuvIt 245]

7 hours ago, Juklitz said:

I believe both Draper and Fischer should go up somehow...

They might go up, but not into our GM position (hopefully).  Drapes is no where near qualified (yet), and has really no authority as of now.  He needs more experience.  IMO...a good GM is one that has a HUGE rolodex of contacts/relationships within the league, and can basically immediately establish communications with every team on certain items (e.g. trades, who's on our trading block, what the other team thinks of certain players we are interested in, etc.).  That takes a while to establish.  IMO...Stevie likely had an easier path to becoming a GM because...because....he's Steve frickin Yzerman.  As Krsmith17 mentions above, which I completely agree, I'd like to see someone outside the organization that has a proven track record.  I'd be okay with taking a little bit of risk on maybe a younger, up and coming, likely a stud, front office guy, but only to a certain point.

[AtlantaHotWings 984]

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I think it will be between Martin and Draper when Holland moves up or out. In saying that, I think it would be a poor decision to hire anyone within the organization to become the next GM. This team needs a new look, new approach, and that starts from the top. I think the best thing for this team would be to go outside the organization to find Holland's replacement. Who? I have no idea...

Dickie,Lefty, CRL get your resumes ready.....

[DickieDunn 2,571]

1 hour ago, Learn2LuvIt said:

They might go up, but not into our GM position (hopefully).  Drapes is no where near qualified (yet), and has really no authority as of now.  He needs more experience.  IMO...a good GM is one that has a HUGE rolodex of contacts/relationships within the league, and can basically immediately establish communications with every team on certain items (e.g. trades, who's on our trading block, what the other team thinks of certain players we are interested in, etc.).  That takes a while to establish.  IMO...Stevie likely had an easier path to becoming a GM because...because....he's Steve frickin Yzerman.  As Krsmith17 mentions above, which I completely agree, I'd like to see someone outside the organization that has a proven track record.  I'd be okay with taking a little bit of risk on maybe a younger, up and coming, likely a stud, front office guy, but only to a certain point.

I will be surprised if one of them isn't GM and the other gets a promotion as well.  I've said before I expect them to be co-GMs in some form, with Martin handling the numbers and Draper in charge of personnel decisions.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Martin and Draper did reel gud as my assistants and they'll do what I tell them to do for the next few years and you never know what you might get by looking outside so we just promoted from inside because that's reel gud.

[Jacksoni 418]

He'll get the extension.

I do agree new blood is needed. Furthermore I'd like the GM position to be split; times have changed. Analytics combined with various forms of learning systems cannot any longer be ignored, incorporated properly it is a superior tool versus traditional player analysis.

Thus I am suggesting a new approach to the upper structure of the club, 1 traditional GM, 1 analytics GM, and making Chris Ilitch (now a passive owner) in effect the GM, albeit not on paper, more like a quite an active owner. This should improve us long term regardless or short term roster movements. And put Chris closer to how his father managed the hockey club.

An alternative is a triangle-shaped GM structure, head GM (not Ken Holland, need someone with a good understanding of statistical analysis) and two supporting GM's, one traditional, one analytical.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Jacksoni

[kliq 3,755]

I dont really care if it's "new blood" or if its someone from within the organization. What I want IF Holland steps down, is the person most qualified to do the job.

If someone like Draper has the potential to be a great GM, I would hate to lose him because we are scared to hire from within. With that being said, I am not opposed to hiring from the outside either.

2 hours ago, Jacksoni said:

He'll get the extension.

I do agree new blood is needed. Furthermore I'd like the GM position to be split; times have changed. Analytics combined with various forms of learning systems cannot any longer be ignored, incorporated properly it is a superior tool versus traditional player analysis.

Thus I am suggesting a new approach to the upper structure of the club, 1 traditional GM, 1 analytics GM, and making Chris Ilitch (now a passive owner) in effect the GM, albeit not on paper, more like a quite an active owner. This should improve us long term regardless or short term roster movements. And put Chris closer to how his father managed the hockey club.

An alternative is a triangle-shaped GM structure, head GM (not Ken Holland, need someone with a good understanding of statistical analysis) and two supporting GM's, one traditional, one analytical.

Isn't this the same as a GM with 2 assistant GM's? The only difference being you are calling one "head GM" and the other two "GM's"?

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, kliq said:

I dont really care if it's "new blood" or if its someone from within the organization. What I want IF Holland steps down, is the person most qualified to do the job.

If someone like Draper has the potential to be a great GM, I would hate to lose him because we are scared to hire from within. With that being said, I am not opposed to hiring from the outside either.

Isn't this the same as a GM with 2 assistant GM's? The only difference being you are calling one "head GM" and the other two "GM's"?

Draper could be a great GM, but I find it hard to believe that either of the assistants would run things much, if at all different than Holland has. I'm sure both Martin and Draper have a voice as assistants right now, and I doubt either are pushing Holland to do anything any different. I don't think Holland is as terrible as some make him out to be, but there seems to be more flaws in his approach in recent years. His reluctance to make any sort of meaningful trade being the biggest for me. I'm just not sure if Draper were to take over, that he'd be so quick to make this his team, by putting his stamp on it and shaking things up. I don't think this team needs a major shakeup either, just a couple key trades to get them back on the right track toward contention. I know Holland isn't capable of this, and I'm not sure if anyone he has been grooming for the past several years would be either. I will say though that one thing that would scare me about going outside the organization for a replacement, would be a major shakeup, fire sale, a completely different team that is no further ahead, or possibly even worse. I do agree with going with the most qualified, but I'd still prefer that to be someone outside the organization.

[Dabura 12,207]

12 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I think it will be between Martin and Draper when Holland moves up or out. In saying that, I think it would be a poor decision to hire anyone within the organization to become the next GM. This team needs a new look, new approach, and that starts from the top. I think the best thing for this team would be to go outside the organization to find Holland's replacement. Who? I have no idea...

I'm still holding out hope that Chuck Fletcher becomes available. He hasn't won anything with the Wild, but I generally like the way he rolls. I think he could be a reel gud fit.

[mackel 679]

https://www.thescore.com/news/1337009

This is a good if not depressing read.

[kliq 3,755]

5 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Draper could be a great GM, but I find it hard to believe that either of the assistants would run things much, if at all different than Holland has. I'm sure both Martin and Draper have a voice as assistants right now, and I doubt either are pushing Holland to do anything any different. I don't think Holland is as terrible as some make him out to be, but there seems to be more flaws in his approach in recent years. His reluctance to make any sort of meaningful trade being the biggest for me. I'm just not sure if Draper were to take over, that he'd be so quick to make this his team, by putting his stamp on it and shaking things up. I don't think this team needs a major shakeup either, just a couple key trades to get them back on the right track toward contention. I know Holland isn't capable of this, and I'm not sure if anyone he has been grooming for the past several years would be either. I will say though that one thing that would scare me about going outside the organization for a replacement, would be a major shakeup, fire sale, a completely different team that is no further ahead, or possibly even worse. I do agree with going with the most qualified, but I'd still prefer that to be someone outside the organization.

For the record, I pretty much agree with everything you are saying.

The way I look at it, is it's not fair to assume that an assistant is going to be just like his predecessor (not saying you are saying this). If this was the case, Yzerman would be a Holland clone in TB, yet I think we can all agree that Yzerman and Holland have not been similar in their approaches over the past few years. 

I'm not even saying Draper is the best candidate, I have no clue. My point is just that I want Illitch, Holland, JD etc. to hire the best candidate possible (if KH steps down as GM). If that candidate comes from within...cool. If they come from somewhere else.....also cool. I just hate the narrative that is created by some on this board that we CANT hire from within. I think as soon as you start to limit yourself in your selection process, you are asking for problems.

The bold does scare me a bit. I remember when people claimed we "needed" to get rid of Babs to get some fresh blood in Blashill, obviously this was not the case. Grass is not always greener on the other side, and some people want change just for the sake of change. 

 

[Dabura 12,207]

8 hours ago, mackel said:

https://www.thescore.com/news/1337009

This is a good if not depressing read.

We have Luke Witkowski; everything is going to be fine.

[krsmith17 7,191]

5 hours ago, kliq said:

For the record, I pretty much agree with everything you are saying.

The way I look at it, is it's not fair to assume that an assistant is going to be just like his predecessor (not saying you are saying this). If this was the case, Yzerman would be a Holland clone in TB, yet I think we can all agree that Yzerman and Holland have not been similar in their approaches over the past few years. 

I'm not even saying Draper is the best candidate, I have no clue. My point is just that I want Illitch, Holland, JD etc. to hire the best candidate possible (if KH steps down as GM). If that candidate comes from within...cool. If they come from somewhere else.....also cool. I just hate the narrative that is created by some on this board that we CANT hire from within. I think as soon as you start to limit yourself in your selection process, you are asking for problems.

The bold does scare me a bit. I remember when people claimed we "needed" to get rid of Babs to get some fresh blood in Blashill, obviously this was not the case. Grass is not always greener on the other side, and some people want change just for the sake of change. 

I'm not saying I think Draper would do things just like Holland, if he were hired by any of the other 30 NHL teams, but I do think he would do things very similarly if he were hired to take over as GM of the Detroit Red Wings. For the same reason, I don't think Yzerman would be the same aggressive GM if he had stayed here in Detroit. If he came back now, after 7 years with the Lightning, I think because he has established himself as a very good general manager, he would be given a bit of a longer leash, and be able to do things a little more his way, rather than the Red Wings way, based on experience alone. Yzerman stepped into a Tampa organization and was given full control, which I don't think he would have gotten here in Detroit. If Draper were hired, he would still run every decision (trade, free agents, drafting, etc.) by Holland, Devellano, and company, which is why I believe we would see much of the same. Of course, if we were to hire someone from the outside, they would also receive input from the guys above, but I believe to a lesser extent, if they have already established themselves as a successful GM.

I'm not sure if we "needed" to get rid of Babcock, but I do think the message was starting to get stale, if not already. I believe that coaches and GMs have a shelf life with one organization, and it was time for Babcock to move on, and same goes for Holland now. It wasn't just fans that were saying this either. It was being reported that some players, including Zetterberg, didn't have the best relationship with Babs, and they weren't entirely happy with his coaching style. Maybe Blashill wasn't the best choice as his replacement, but I don't think this team would be much further ahead if Babcock were still here either.

[LeftWinger 4,953]

Although I'd rather hire from outside, a good example is Jim Nill. He's an understudy of Holland's and he is way more aggressive than Holland. 

An issue I'd have with someone from within is possibly having loyalty to the same players Holland has. We need a GM, from within or outside, to come and clean house.

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

8 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Although I'd rather hire from outside, a good example is Jim Nill. He's an understudy of Holland's and he is way more aggressive than Holland. 

An issue I'd have with someone from within is possibly having loyalty to the same players Holland has. We need a GM, from within or outside, to come and clean house.

Nill is another example of someone that left the organization to manage another team. Same as with Yzerman, I don't believe he would have shown the same aggressive style if he had taken over for Holland, and Holland stayed within the organization (like he likely would have / will). I think it's a lot easier to take over a team when you've had no previous personal connection with any of the management / players. It's a little more difficult to trade, waive, buyout, players that you've helped draft and develop, and helped your predecessor build. Maybe we would be in a better position right now if Nill had taken over for Holland, but I don't think he would have made as many drastic changes as some would like to believe.

As for the bolded. No we don't need to "clean house", and it would never happen. We need a GM that isn't afraid to make trades, and will make the appropriate changes to get this team back on the right path to contention. Make some "difficult decisions", and trade a bad contract, and trade for a top defender.

Who's more likely to make those changes (eg trade Ericsson)? Someone that has helped draft / develop, and / or been around on a daily basis, knows his family, etc.? Or someone that has never met the guy, and knows him only as the overpaid, bottom pair defenseman that was drafted last overall 15 years ago?