Tatar, Athanasiou, and XO's new deals

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

1) He may have meant if they don't feel I'm worth a longer deal they probably don't feel I'm worth keeping.
2) He has proven he's a good goal scorer and is in his last year of rfa status. Generally those guys get similar deals to what a ufa would get.
3) Abdelkader was in the same situation and the deal got done quick.
4) The idea that these guys owe the team something and they should keep their mouths shut publicly if they're unhappy is ridiculous. You don't think every other player in the NHL tells their GM they want X contract or they walk? Just because Tatar did it in a paper in Europe doesn't make him a bad guy or greedy or whatever problem you have with him over it. It makes him honest. I'd rather have some guys who speak up than have everyone give the same bland cliche answers every time.

Sent by my minions via telepathy
 

Again, I don't have a problem with what he's doing, but how he's doing it.

"if I don't get the term I want, I'm going to walk next year" Comes off as entitled and generally uncaring of the team he plays for.

"I love playing in Detroit and want a multi-year deal that keeps me here" Comes off like a guy truly committed to the future success of the organization.

Maybe it's a cultural difference as a previous poster noted. Either way, his choice of words rubs me the wrong way.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Again, I don't have a problem with what he's doing, but how he's doing it.
"if I don't get the term I want, I'm going to walk next year" Comes off as entitled and generally uncaring of the team he plays for.
"I love playing in Detroit and want a multi-year deal that keeps me here" Comes off like a guy truly committed to the future success of the organization.
Maybe it's a cultural difference as a previous poster noted. Either way, his choice of words rubs me the wrong way.

You have things skin.



Sent by my minions via telepathy

So would you pay him $6 million? You said he's worth $5 million. 

No. If he took 2 or 3 years I'd do $5.5. longer term $5.

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[kickazz 5,459]

12 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

No. If he took 2 or 3 years I'd do $5.5. longer term $5.

Sent by my minions via telepathy
 

Right. I would agree with this (reluctantly since we don't know how he will be post-surgery). It's not far off from Nyquist money if long term. It looks like they offered him a multi year deal worth $5 million a year and he didn't take it. But a non-Detroit source said he's looking for $5 million and didn't get it. So who knows. 

Edited July 10, 2017 by kickazz

[SwedeLundin77 460]

There it is!  Tyler Johnson just signed for 7 years at 5 million per.  There is your comparable.  Tatar should get no more than $5 million per season.  If he doesn't agree with that, adios, trade him.

[kickazz 5,459]

54 minutes ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

There it is!  Tyler Johnson just signed for 7 years at 5 million per.  There is your comparable.  Tatar should get no more than $5 million per season.  If he doesn't agree with that, adios, trade him.

It's not even that accurate of a comparison. Tyler Johnson is better. I'd rather have him on this team than Tatar. And this goes back to my original point. Tatar should technically not get anything more than Nyquist money. But reluctantly $5 million would be "okay". 

Why is Johnson better? Has a much higher PPG (0.68 vs 0.56), the same exact Goals per game ratio (0.28), BUT. Johnson is a Centerman, kills penalties (5 SH goals in his career so far) as well and has a proven playoff track record. 42 points in 47 playoffs games (holy s***). 

Edited July 11, 2017 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Right. I would agree with this (reluctantly since we don't know how he will be post-surgery). It's not far off from Nyquist money if long term. It looks like they offered him a multi year deal worth $5 million a year and he didn't take it. But a non-Detroit source said he's looking for $5 million and didn't get it. So who knows. 

Like I said in the opening day roster thread it depends on what the injury is and what's the risk of reinjury

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[LeftWinger 4,959]

If we're using Johnson as a comp. Then Tatar should get $4.5M.

[kickazz 5,459]

This Johnson deal is definitely going to hurt Tatar and his agent to be honest, and probably help the Red Wings' offer. 

 

Edited July 11, 2017 by kickazz

[kliq 3,755]

2 hours ago, kickazz said:

But is he worth $6 million? That's what he's asking for. 

6 million........yikes, probably not.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

You have things skin.



Sent by my minions via telepathy


No. If he took 2 or 3 years I'd do $5.5. longer term $5.

Sent by my minions via telepathy
 

If you told your boss you're going to leave for a compitetor in one year would he/she be happy? Assuming youre not the zberg of your workplace 

Edited July 11, 2017 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[kiwi wingnut 33]

42 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

If you told your boss you're going to leave for a compitetor in one year would he/she be happy? Assuming youre not the zberg of your workplace 

Well mine would be happy, because like Tatar, I am a contractor and that's the nature of contracting.

But if I said it in a "I semi-resent having to fulfill this year of contracting while I wait for my (perceived) big payday that someone else will give me next year" sort of way, then that would be pretty unprofessional.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

3 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

If we're using Johnson as a comp. Then Tatar should get $4.5M.

While agree with you, kickazz and others that this helps Holland's side of negotiations, the Johnson deal 5 X 7 years. They're almost definitely not talking about a deal that long so you can't make a straight comparison for cap-hits. A long deal like that is equivalent to offers of less years and a higher cap hit.

Hopefully that gets his agent away from that supposed 6 mill mark, though.

Edited July 11, 2017 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

13 minutes ago, kiwi wingnut said:

Well mine would be happy, because like Tatar, I am a contractor and that's the nature of contracting.

But if I said it in a "I semi-resent having to fulfill this year of contracting while I wait for my (perceived) big payday that someone else will give me next year" sort of way, then that would be pretty unprofessional.

I think of the Red Wings like a company that just fell drastically short of their annual goals. Sales went down the crapper and a few middle of the pack salesmen had to be let go (Smith, Vanek, Ott). Now theres a corporate reshuffle going on, and management has some young, fresh out of college, go-getters (Larkin, AA, Mantha) theyre going to lean on to bring a fresh/new direction. And in the middle of this coporate restructuring, one of the middle of the pack salesmen, that didnt get cut in the first round of cuts, just demaded a huge pay increase on significant term, and is threatening to bolt to a competitor if he doesnt get it. That employee just topped my list of 2nd round cuts. I can replace his sales numbers for the coming year with a quick message to Thomas Vanek on linkedin.

[SwedeLundin77 460]

1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

https://www.nhl.com/news/tyler-johnson-signs-seven-year-contract-with-lightning/c-290351960?tid=281072352

 

I actually would be happy if Tatar signed this exact contract.  I like the guy.  We only have 3 guys who act like they knew they were going to score and get excited about it after it happens.  The defenseman act like they cant believe it went in and half the forwards act like it's still not in.  Let Tatar play with the Mike the Muss and Larkin.  He will excel.

I would be extremely uncomfortable signing Tatar to that long of a contract.  He isn't multi-dimensional and there is no telling if he is capped at around 45-55 points per season or if there is more potential there.  It's a hell of a risk to add another long term lucrative contract to a team that already needs to dump a few of those types of deals.  I'm just saying, he is a piece that might be able to be used in a package to get a top 2 d-man.  That only works, though, if he is signed to a shorter term contract at a reasonable price (4.5-5 million).

[kickazz 5,459]

2 hours ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

While agree with you, kickazz and others that this helps Holland's side of negotiations, the Johnson deal 5 X 7 years. They're almost definitely not talking about a deal that long so you can't make a straight comparison for cap-hits. A long deal like that is equivalent to offers of less years and a higher cap hit.

Hopefully that gets his agent away from that supposed 6 mill mark, though.

Depends how you compare Tatar and Johnson. I think Johnson is the better player and brings more to a team; more versatile (he came in 8th place for Selke voting couple years ago). So even with a shorter term contract, Tatar may still be inferior to Johnson in this scenario. So even if lower term, I'm not sure how much more the cap hit would be; certainly shouldn't be close to $6 million mark and I think we both agree on that. 

Edited July 11, 2017 by kickazz

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

18 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Depends how you compare Tatar and Johnson. I think Johnson is the better player and brings more to a team; more versatile (he came in 8th place for Selke voting couple years ago). So even with a shorter term contract, Tatar may still be inferior to Johnson in this scenario. So even if lower term, I'm not sure how much more the cap hit would be; certainly shouldn't be close to $6 million mark and I think we both agree on that. 

I agree that Johnson is the better player and more versatile, etc. I'm more saying that players take less per year if it's a really long deal like 7 years. And if Holland says "hey, this guy get 5" then the agent says "fine, if we get a 7 year deal." If it's a 4 year deal (just a guess) it's a different beast and the comparison will be skewed a bit. Maybe Johnson would be at 5.5 if it were a 4-5 year deal? But, yeah, Tatar shouldn't be near 6. 

P.S. Tatar's actually has higher goal and point totals the last 2 years. This is due to the fact Johnson's had some injury problems and missed 13,15 games in these years. That won't help.

A good comparable for a shorter deal is the one Galchenyuk signed a few days ago (3 years, 4.9). In their careers Tatar has 99g,194 pts in 345 games, while Galchenyuk has 89g, 202 pts in 336 games - pretty close.

 

[kickazz 5,459]

4 hours ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

A good comparable for a shorter deal is the one Galchenyuk signed a few days ago (3 years, 4.9). In their careers Tatar has 99g,194 pts in 345 games, while Galchenyuk has 89g, 202 pts in 336 games - pretty close.

 

With that comparison, anywhere between 4.75 (Nyquist money, which might now be outdated since that contract was signed a few years ago) and 5.25 million (since the cap is higher now) at most imo for 4 years. 

Edited July 11, 2017 by kickazz

[Juklitz 85]

10 hours ago, kliq said:

I don't live in Slovakia, but all 4 of my grandparents are from there and I have been there multiple times.

Where exactly they are from? West or east part? 

Anyway, I like Johnson´s deal, would like to see Tatar there as well. 

[amato 3,210]

Sign and trade.. same deal as Johnson, trade Tatar for Johnson straight up  

 

Ok really though, I love it. Agree with those that are saying Johnson's deal is good for keeping Tatar's down a little.... now someone just has to convince Tatar of that. 

[kliq 3,755]

7 hours ago, Juklitz said:

Where exactly they are from? West or east part? 

They are from the East, Prešov and Bardejov specifically. 

[SwedeLundin77 460]

I don't really care for Helene, but this right here makes a lot of sense.  Offer him a 1-year deal and see if he picks his play up and improves/becomes more consistent.

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2017/07/11/red-wings-tomas-tatar/467904001/

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

I don't really care for Helene, but this right here makes a lot of sense.  Offer him a 1-year deal and see if he picks his play up and improves/becomes more consistent.

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2017/07/11/red-wings-tomas-tatar/467904001/

My gawd, he wants an AAV of $6 million for 7 years. I would welcome a predatory offer sheet at this point. Take that attitude to Chicago for all I care.

adios, adieu, ciao, auf wiedersehen, sayonara,

[DickieDunn 2,571]

He filed for arbitration, he can't get an offer sheets.

He saw what grinders like Abdelkader and Helm get from Holland and thinks he should get significantly more, or he wants out and is using this to force the Wings' hand. Either way I don't want him for $6 mil per. Let him go.

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[LeftWinger 4,959]

The guy is nuts. You call Detroit and tell them bulls***! Trade him right ******* now!

In all seriousness, get AA signed and then deal with Tatar.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

33 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

My gawd, he wants an AAV of $6 million for 7 years. I would welcome a predatory offer sheet at this point. Take that attitude to Chicago for all I care.

adios, adieu, ciao, auf wiedersehen, sayonara,

It was other past articles said they were asking 6 mill - St. James just says 7 years with no mention of amount. Maybe the previous article was referring to a shorter deal. In the Slovakian interview, Tatar mentioned he was offered 3 deals of differing lengths - they wouldn't be at the same caphit amount and Tat's counter wouldn't be the same yearly amount for the differing deal lengths.