Tatar, Athanasiou, and XO's new deals

[jaymac17 10]

I think the most realistic two sided scenario is either we sign him long term or lose him for nothing after his arbitrary deal. If he gets the 1yr deal on the 20th we have no remaining cards...Tatar has said he will not return if it goes that route...with that knowledge what team is going to offer a deal that Hollands magic 8-ball says is a good one? Also, what is this thread going to look like after the deadline when we send him somewhere for a 3rd and Holland starts talking about how hard trades are and that's the best we could get? We're gonna be trying to talk guys off the ledge! I personally will be pissed. I think there will be news in the next couple days-- 5/little more than 5mil or 6/right around 5mil.

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[kliq 3,755]

2 hours ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

No, you misunderstand.  He said if he goes to arbitration, it's his last deal in Detroit, so if he walks then we lose him for nothing.  If he goes to arbitration, there is a chance that we lose him for nothing, as teams may be reluctant to trade any decent assets for a soon-to-be UFA whos contract demands are pretty well known and unrealistic.  The flip side is Holland overpays him because.... reasons.  So don't overpay or lose him for nada.  The middle ground being that we get him under contract right around 4.5-5.25 for 5 years or we sign him to a show-me contract for 1 year with the understanding that if he produces, we'll be there to sign him long-term for an increase in a year.

Holland offered that, Tatar said no. Not much you can do when the player either wants to be paid big money, or is going to walk. I think Holland should stand pat, and hope Tatar signs a deal like you stated at the last minute. If he does't, so be it. Trade him.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 hours ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

No, you misunderstand.  He said if he goes to arbitration, it's his last deal in Detroit, so if he walks then we lose him for nothing.  If he goes to arbitration, there is a chance that we lose him for nothing, as teams may be reluctant to trade any decent assets for a soon-to-be UFA whos contract demands are pretty well known and unrealistic.  The flip side is Holland overpays him because.... reasons.  So don't overpay or lose him for nada.  The middle ground being that we get him under contract right around 4.5-5.25 for 5 years or we sign him to a show-me contract for 1 year with the understanding that if he produces, we'll be there to sign him long-term for an increase in a year.

I think a trade after arbitration is doable

[krsmith17 7,191]

According to Elliotte Friedman, Tatar is asking for $5.3M and the Red Wings are offering $4.1M... Not sure what kind of term was attached to that offer...

If true, I don't blame Tatar for not accepting, regardless of term. He shouldn't be asked to sign for over a million less than Nielsen, and less than Abdelkader and Ericsson among others.

I don't think Tatar's ask is astronomically high, but I'd still prefer a sign and trade. Or sign Tatar long term and trade Nyquist. Something needs to be done to shake things up with this team...

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Turned out to be a very solid player but the Wings need picks so I'd rather trade him maybe for a lesser return than lose the guy for nothing.

[chaps80 1,591]

Holland offered that, Tatar said no. Not much you can do when the player either wants to be paid big money, or is going to walk. I think Holland should stand pat, and hope Tatar signs a deal like you stated at the last minute. If he does't, so be it. Trade him.

He's asking for $5.3 million at his arbitration today. Holland offered $4.1 million. So they are pretty far apart.


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According to Elliotte Friedman, Tatar is asking for $5.3M and the Red Wings are offering $4.1M... Not sure what kind of term was attached to that offer...
If true, I don't blame Tatar for not accepting, regardless of term. He shouldn't be asked to sign for over a million less than Nielsen, and less than Abdelkader and Ericsson among others.
I don't think Tatar's ask is astronomically high, but I'd still prefer a sign and trade. Or sign Tatar long term and trade Nyquist. Something needs to be done to shake things up with this team...

If Holland already offered him over $5 million, why go in with a $4.1 million offer? It is arbitration, but he's not going to sign for less money than Abby makes ffs Holland. Lol


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Guess Holland was "skiing" over the weekend. Still feelin it.


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[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

They may be far apart in the arbitration offers, but Tatar asking for 5.3 isn't far from that 5X5 offer. That gives me hope that a deal will get done.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

According to Elliotte Friedman, Tatar is asking for $5.3M and the Red Wings are offering $4.1M... Not sure what kind of term was attached to that offer...

If true, I don't blame Tatar for not accepting, regardless of term. He shouldn't be asked to sign for over a million less than Nielsen, and less than Abdelkader and Ericsson among others.

I don't think Tatar's ask is astronomically high, but I'd still prefer a sign and trade. Or sign Tatar long term and trade Nyquist. Something needs to be done to shake things up with this team...

Holland can't offer him that much without making another move, which he won't because of all the bloated deals he handed out.  If Tatar really only wants $5.3, it should be a no brainer to sign him.

Of course, if that's the arbitration offer Holland is throwing out, it's probably lower than what he offered as the contract, at least I would hope.  

[Euro_Twins 4,475]

1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:

Holland can't offer him that much without making another move, which he won't because of all the bloated deals he handed out.  If Tatar really only wants $5.3, it should be a no brainer to sign him.

Of course, if that's the arbitration offer Holland is throwing out, it's probably lower than what he offered as the contract, at least I would hope.  

Honestly 5.3 is a bit high. I wouldn't want him for more than 5. 

[DickieDunn 2,571]

look at the comparable scorers from the last 2 years, $5.3 is pretty close to the mid point

[Euro_Twins 4,475]

3 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

look at the comparable scorers from the last 2 years, $5.3 is pretty close to the mid point

45 points isn't worth $5.3 million imo 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Palat got $5.3 x 5 and consistently hovers around 50 - 60 pts per season.

Tatar hovers around 40 - 50 pts per season but scores more goals, whereas Palat notches more assists.

I think $4.5 to $5 is fair. So basically Nyquist. 

[shocky2002 36]

I love these people ITT who think they can use unadjusted points to determine a player's value. Tomas Tatar is a far better puck possession player than Nyquist. There is no way he should be getting 1m less than DEKEYSER. 

I hope Tatar leaves and lights it up for another team to shove it in Ken Holland's face.

[Euro_Twins 4,475]

3 minutes ago, shocky2002 said:

I love these people ITT who think they can use unadjusted points to determine a player's value. Tomas Tatar is a far better puck possession player than Nyquist. There is no way he should be getting 1m less than DEKEYSER. 

I hope Tatar leaves and lights it up for another team to shove it in Ken Holland's face.

Dekeyser is a defenceman. Tatar is a winger. One is a dime a dozen, one isn't. 

[shocky2002 36]

Tomas Tatar- career +13.9% 5v5 corsi RELATIVE TO THE TEAM. 13.9%!!!!! Pavel Datsyuk's career high was 16.6. NYQUIST is 2.4%!!! When he's on the ice, the Red Wings are far better than when he's off the ice. 

12 minutes ago, Euro_Twins said:

Dekeyser is a defenceman. Tatar is a winger. One is a dime a dozen, one isn't. 

It doesn't matter when Dekeyser's value to the team is far lower than that of Tatar's, regardless of position. I would not pay Carey Price more than Nicklas Backstrom. Keep using the 45 points argument. Use +/- too while you're at it.

Edited July 18, 2017 by shocky2002

[shocky2002 36]

Andrei Burakovsy had 44.84 points / 82 games this year. Andrei Burakovsy is actually extremely good and should be getting more money than TJ Oshie. The points don't show it.

Vincent Trochek- 54 points in 82 games. His on-ice impact was massive relative to the rest of the team. Again, IMO, a better player than TJ Oshie. The elementary stats don't show it, of course.

 

I'm not saying Tatar is a superstar elite player, but he's the best player on this team. He should be getting the most money. He's better than Mantha.

Edited July 18, 2017 by shocky2002

[shocky2002 36]

I'm guessing Euro_Twins thinks 2008 Nick Lidstrom is worth more than 2008 Pavel Datsyuk too. them forwardz are so a dime a dozen, my defensemenz are the keepers! Even though, of course, Pavel Datsyuk at his peak was worth more to the team than a Nick Lidstrom past his prime.

Edited July 18, 2017 by shocky2002

[kliq 3,755]

And this is what you get when a person takes possession metrics to an extreme. Not even worth debating.

[krsmith17 7,191]

23 minutes ago, shocky2002 said:

I'm not saying Tatar is a superstar elite player, but he's the best player on this team. He should be getting the most money. He's better than Mantha.

No he's not. Zetterberg is the best player on this team.

No he's not. Mantha is better so far in his young career, and will be much better going forward.

Tatar is a good complimentary winger. If we can keep him at a good price, great. If we can trade him in a package for a top 2 defenseman, even better.

[SwedeLundin77 460]

16 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

No he's not. Zetterberg is the best player on this team.

No he's not. Mantha is better so far in his young career, and will be much better going forward.

Tatar is a good complimentary winger. If we can keep him at a good price, great. If we can trade him in a package for a top 2 defenseman, even better.

Hahaha.... the best player on this team scored 46 points last season and most of his goals came after we were obviously eliminated.  Zetterberg and Mantha are the best players currently.  If Larkin can bounce back, he'll be better than Tatar as well.  Tatar does not deserve to make nearly as much as Zetterberg.  Tatar should be making between 4.5 and 5 million.  If that 5x5 offer was real and he turned it down, he's an idiot.

[chaps80 1,591]

Well, losing a great drafted player (if it comes to that) that puts up the numbers he does on this current roster due to money concerns is simply very poor roster management. Kenny pulls the trigger on Nielson last year, now Daley, when he should have been planning for one of his best scorers upcoming RFA status. Typical. Spend the cash and worry later, right Kenny? His problem is he thinks his young homegrown players aren't worth the amounts veteran free agents are, or if he thinks they are, he'll still try to save money when making his offer, like he is with Tatar. But Nielson, no problem. He can have what he wants.

Guy is sooo stuck in 2002 era dreamland it's stupid. How many years has he had to adjust to the cap? And he still doesn't get it.


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[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

Shocky is a troll. Do yourself a favor and put him on your ignore list.

Side Note: I would not pay Tatar 5.5 million.

Edited July 19, 2017 by DatsyukianDekes

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Arbitration looks at recent deals for comparable players at the same position. I'd be shocked if Tatar got less than $5 mil and I will expect closer to $5.5, which will put the team in a bad spot thanks to Holland handing out bad contracts

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[MileHighWingsGuy 178]

22 hours ago, jaymac17 said:

I think the most realistic two sided scenario is either we sign him long term or lose him for nothing after his arbitrary deal. If he gets the 1yr deal on the 20th we have no remaining cards...Tatar has said he will not return if it goes that route...with that knowledge what team is going to offer a deal that Hollands magic 8-ball says is a good one? Also, what is this thread going to look like after the deadline when we send him somewhere for a 3rd and Holland starts talking about how hard trades are and that's the best we could get? We're gonna be trying to talk guys off the ledge! I personally will be pissed. I think there will be news in the next couple days-- 5/little more than 5mil or 6/right around 5mil.

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I still think $5-$6 Mill for Tatar is ridiculous. Giving out bad contracts because trades are difficult is just horrible management both from a personnel and cap perspective. We really need a direction and a game plan for the team as a whole, every decision seems to be made in a vacuum with no coherency.

Question to those with knowledge. If the arbitrator finds Tatar is worth something stupid like $6Million do the Wings have any options left? Or can they trade him at that point? Guess I need and education in arbitration.

[jaymac17 10]

I still think $5-$6 Mill for Tatar is ridiculous. Giving out bad contracts because trades are difficult is just horrible management both from a personnel and cap perspective. We really need a direction and a game plan for the team as a whole, every decision seems to be made in a vacuum with no coherency.
Question to those with knowledge. If the arbitrator finds Tatar is worth something stupid like $6Million do the Wings have any options left? Or can they trade him at that point? Guess I need and education in arbitration.

If they award him something ridiculous the team can reject the decision essentially releasing the player's rights and allowing them to immediately become ufa...also not a good outcome for us.

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