Tatar, Athanasiou, and XO's new deals

[jaymac17 10]

5-6 million is not a ridiculous contract for Tatar. It is the going rate in the league for these types of players. If every other team would also pay it, that is simply market value. If he ends up somewhere else next yr he will definitely be in the high 5/6mil window. If Abby was making the lower 3mil he should be, helm was making the high 2mil he should be (or gone), and Glendening was making the 800k he should be i don't think there 'd be nearly the talking points or debate over signing a established top goal scorer 5.5/6 mil especially considering market value and cost to retain/sign similar players around the league.

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[DickieDunn 2,571]

lets look at it from a Stats view 2016--------Tats 25-21-46 TOI 17.16

Player Goals Assist PTS $$$$$$$ TOI
Nick Foligno - 26 25 51 5.5mil 18.25
Marian Hossa - 26 19 45 5.25mil 16.51
Kyle Palmier - 26 27 53 4.65mil 17.20
Brayden Schenn - 25 27 52 5.125mil 17.48
Logan Couture - 25 27 52 6.0mil 17.36
Justin Williams - 24 24 48 4.5mil 15.28
Brandon Saad - 24 29 53 6.0mil 17.01
 

[SwedeLundin77 460]

33 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

lets look at it from a Stats view 2016--------Tats 25-21-46 TOI 17.16

Player Goals Assist PTS $$$$$$$ TOI
Nick Foligno - 26 25 51 5.5mil 18.25
Marian Hossa - 26 19 45 5.25mil 16.51
Kyle Palmier - 26 27 53 4.65mil 17.20
Brayden Schenn - 25 27 52 5.125mil 17.48
Logan Couture - 25 27 52 6.0mil 17.36
Justin Williams - 24 24 48 4.5mil 15.28
Brandon Saad - 24 29 53 6.0mil 17.01
 

It's too bad that most of those players provide more than just points... unlike Tatar, who is one-dimensional.  Hossa really isn't a fair comparison as he is older and toward the end of this contract.  Also that contract, at the time, was a steal.  4.5-5 million is the sweet spot for Tatar, but I'd rather not have him on the books for more than 4 years.

[SwedeLundin77 460]

10 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Tatar will get over 5 mil per.  I have zero doubt of that.

If he goes to arbitration with the numbers as they were reported, he'll more than likely land around 4.75 million.  That puts him in the league with Palmieri, Williams, Nyquist, Hornqvist, Soderberg, Bozak, Johansson...   Those all seem very appropriate.

[jaymac17 10]

I keep hearing tatar is a one dimensional player. For the sake of conversation can we explain or define what it actually is we're talking about when we throw that phrase out there.

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[SwedeLundin77 460]

50 minutes ago, jaymac17 said:

I keep hearing tatar is a one dimensional player. For the sake of conversation can we explain or define what it actually is we're talking about when we throw that phrase out there.

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Well, I personally use it when a player is really only good at one side of the game.  Tatar is a decent scorer but isn't relied upon for strong defense.  He's not a 2-way forward and isn't put out in all situations.  

[Juklitz 85]

57 minutes ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

He's not a 2-way forward and isn't put out in all situations.  

I can see a mismatch in what you´re calling 2-way fw, actually is doesn´t mean that he must be strong in defense. 

Reality is that Tatar is one of few players, who can drive puck out from the D-zone and then create scoring chance.  He´s far best possesion guy there since the moment Dacjuk left. And it´s not even close, just compare Nyquist who is not able to get around his own blue line. 

Edited July 19, 2017 by Juklitz

[frankgrimes 1,836]

I can see a mismatch in what you´re calling 2-way fw, actually is doesn´t mean that he must be strong in defense. 
Reality is that Tatar is one of few players, who can drive puck out from the D-zone and then create scoring chance.  He´s far best possesion guy there since the moment Dacjuk left. And it´s not even close, just compare Nyquist who is not able to get around his own blue line. 

Fact is by the time the Wings could be able to do some damage again Tatar will be past his prime, so why not get cap space and a pick for him now. Nyquist and Tatar are similar players no need for both

[Juklitz 85]

 

9 minutes ago, frankgrimes said:

will be past his prime

 

There will be always some players past their primes and players who will be signed till past their primes and youngsters coming to their primes and drafts who will join the league in 4-5 years. 

Ok, trade Tatar, get some 2nd rounder. That guy will be nhl player in 2022. Mantha will be 27 years old, so we´re going to trade him then, because why to create damage in the future past his prime? 

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 hours ago, Juklitz said:

There will be always some players past their primes and players who will be signed till past their primes and youngsters coming to their primes and drafts who will join the league in 4-5 years. 

Ok, trade Tatar, get some 2nd rounder. That guy will be nhl player in 2022. Mantha will be 27 years old, so we´re going to trade him then, because why to create damage in the future past his prime? 

I don't think anyone ever suggested trading Tatar for a draft pick. Anyone that has mentioned trading Tatar or Nyquist, have wanted to trade one of them in a package for a potential top pair (high end player / prospect) defenseman. I'd trade either in a heartbeat for a Trouba type player, or a Bean / Fabbro / Sanheim type prospect.

[Juklitz 85]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I'd trade either in a heartbeat for a Trouba type player, or a Bean / Fabbro / Sanheim

Well, let´s see, going to be resolved asap obviously. 

I´m just afraid of situation trading him at tdl with low value. If it must happen. 

3 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

$4.5 seems fair.

Seems fair to our cap hit, not to Tatar though. And he knows he can get a worthy deal elsewhere. 

[Jacksoni 418]

The situation regarding Tatar is complicated, unpredictable and it is hard to foresee the long term outcome, regardless of which direction this debacle take.

Usually when I face something like that I tend to fall back and bolster my position, seeking more information to make an informed decision, at least more informed.

I still stand by offering Tatar a 1 year deal only. I don't think he'll produce well the coming season. It's just one opinion among many though.

[Juklitz 85]

1 minute ago, F.Michael said:

Ericsson/Abby/etc type deal

Well.. these are no match with 75g/3seasons guy, are they? 

6 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

I'm ok with him getting a 1 yr deal from arbitration. 

Then he´s leaving, that´s the deal. 

[DickieDunn 2,571]

If they do a relatively quick turnaround in 3 years he'll be 29. Since when is that past his prime?

Sent by my minions via telepathy

[LeftWinger 4,953]

2 hours ago, F.Michael said:

$4.5 is a bump up from his previous $3.75, and his #'s haven't gone up, and has yet to hit the 30 goal mark.

I know I may come across as picky, but I can see this as another Ericsson/Abby/etc type deal in the making where his performance does not meet his salary demands.

I'm ok with him getting a 1 yr deal from arbitration. 

Well, considering he made $2.75 it would be nearly a $2M increase. But, that contract was a hometown discount, hge signed that after Nyquist got his. Then after he signed it, Abby and Helm got way overpaid. I understand the reasoning behind what he wants, but there just isn't any cap. That's Holland's fault. He needs to trade away some cap. We needed to lose $4M at expansion PLUS trade away about $12M in mediocre cap space. 

One of our goalies, Nyquist, Helm and Ericsson. None of which we'd miss and are all replaceable from within. If Holland would take better care of his house, we wouldn't be in this situation, but he still thinks that these players will get better even though they get older, so he hangs on to them....for far too long.

[chaps80 1,591]

Well, considering he made $2.75 it would be nearly a $2M increase. But, that contract was a hometown discount, hge signed that after Nyquist got his. Then after he signed it, Abby and Helm got way overpaid. I understand the reasoning behind what he wants, but there just isn't any cap. That's Holland's fault. He needs to trade away some cap. We needed to lose $4M at expansion PLUS trade away about $12M in mediocre cap space. 
One of our goalies, Nyquist, Helm and Ericsson. None of which we'd miss and are all replaceable from within. If Holland would take better care of his house, we wouldn't be in this situation, but he still thinks that these players will get better even though they get older, so he hangs on to them....for far too long.

Exactly. Hand out too many overpaid lengthy contracts to players, then every player either at their level or beyond it will expect one when it's their turn. Don't blame Tatar one bit. If I looked at what Abby got for what he brings then get tabled a $4.1 million per offer, I'd laugh in Holland's face.


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[krsmith17 7,191]

@LeftWinger Would you sign Tatar to a $5M X 5 year contract?

[jaymac17 10]

@LeftWinger Would you sign Tatar to a $5M X 5 year contract?

Yes

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[BadgerBob 297]

3 hours ago, Jacksoni said:

I still stand by offering Tatar a 1 year deal only. I don't think he'll produce well the coming season. It's just one opinion among many though.

I honestly don't think anyone will live up to their offensive potential with this horrible system in place. It's the most boring hockey I've ever watched.

[Jacksoni 418]

I am having a hard time comparing Nyquist to Tatar. They are somewhat similar but Nyquist can stand his own in the offensive zone - mostly, albeit with difficulty against them big hoodlums such as Hedman and other towering beasts.

Tatar is worthless in that regard, once he doesn't have the puck in motion he's a deadbeat. Forget the corners. Might as well have him leave the corner for the bench during the scrimmage.

He does have slightly better hands but to me that does not come close to justify a similar salary as Gustav. And Once again, he is recovering from a shoulder injury - universally known as the hardest area to treat and to recover from.

I do have personal experience regarding this. I have ruptured my right achilles, both my MCL's have ruptured and my left upper shoulder tendon got permanently extended due to a heavy hit. Of those I only still feel the shoulder despite militaristic rehab and permanent weight lifting since dinosaurs walked on earth.

[LeftWinger 4,953]

20 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

@LeftWinger Would you sign Tatar to a $5M X 5 year contract?

Id do 5X5, because it gives us $1.2M for AA. But there still has to be trades because that only makes 12 forwards if you include Witkowski. Which gives us 22 players with no cap for the 23rd. We trade a couple to clear cap, bring up 3 from GR or sign Vanek and bring up 2.

Trade Mrazek, Ericsson and Helm, I don't care what the return, that'll free up $12M more. They'll make $18Mish total. $5M to Tatar,  $1.5M to AA, $4M to Vanek, bring up Svech and Smith. That still leaves about $6M in cap for call ups, deadline, or just to save for next year when we need to give Larkin and Mantha big raises.

[Dabura 12,207]

7 minutes ago, Jacksoni said:

I am having a hard time comparing Nyquist to Tatar. They are somewhat similar but Nyquist can stand his own in the offensive zone - mostly, albeit with difficulty against them big hoodlums such as Hedman and other towering beasts.

Tatar is worthless in that regard, once he doesn't have the puck in motion he's a deadbeat. Forget the corners. Might as well have him leave the corner for the bench during the scrimmage.

You people are ridiculous.

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Id do 5X5, because it gives us $1.2M for AA. But there still has to be trades because that only makes 12 forwards if you include Witkowski. Which gives us 22 players with no cap for the 23rd. We trade a couple to clear cap, bring up 3 from GR or sign Vanek and bring up 2.

Trade Mrazek, Ericsson and Helm, I don't care what the return, that'll free up $12M more. They'll make $18Mish total. $5M to Tatar,  $1.5M to AA, $4M to Vanek, bring up Svech and Smith. That still leaves about $6M in cap for call ups, deadline, or just to save for next year when we need to give Larkin and Mantha big raises.

So you'd do $5M X 5 for Tatar who has put up 194 points (99 goals, 95 assists) in 345 games, but yet you constantly complain about Nyquist and his terrible contract ($4.75M X 4) who has put up 206 points (88 goals, 118 assists) in 337 games... Great Logic!

Also, Athanasiou will likely get more than $1.2M. I'm thinking somewhere around $1.75-2M X 2 years. And you don't need to have 23 players on your opening night roster, that's just the max you can have.

Svechnikov needs more time down in Grand Rapids, and Smith is likely at least 2 years away. One more in Guelph and at least one in Grand Rapids...

[Jacksoni 418]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

Also, Athanasiou will likely get more than $1.2M. I'm thinking somewhere around $1.75-2M X 2 years. And you don't need to have 23 players on your opening night roster, that's just the max you can have.

That bold text seems fitting. He'll get it, got the goods for it. Should be even sharper this season.

[LeftWinger 4,953]

Theres just not enough cap for us. There has to be trades. There absolutely has to, or we're screwed. 

I also complain about Helm and Abby's contracts. $5Mish is the going rate now, if Nyquist were to sign today for $4.75M or would be fine, I hope Tatar gets similar, but 3 years ago, $4.75M was too much for his production, he was more near $3M. That was the complaint because they overpaid him and he severely under performed. Now that the market has risen he is right in the mix of it, but we wasted a few million on him for a few years. Can't imagine what he will ask for in 2 years after netting only 40-50 points in each.

Edited July 19, 2017 by LeftWinger