Tatar, Athanasiou, and XO's new deals

[kickazz 5,459]

Perfect way to dump Sheahan. One of the most overrated players on our roster. 

[DickieDunn 2,571]

CapFriendly.com Armchair-GM User-Generated Roster

FORWARDS (12)
Right wing: G. Nyquist ($4,750,000) - A. Mantha ($863,333) - D. Larkin ($925,000) - M. Frk ($650,000)
Centre: F. Nielsen ($5,250,000) - D. Helm ($3,850,000) - L. Glendening ($1,800,000) - A. Holmström ($686,667)
Left wing: H. Zetterberg ($6,083,333) - T. Tatar ($5,300,000) - J. Abdelkader ($4,250,000) - L. Witkowski ($750,000)

DEFENSE (7)
Right: M. Green ($6,000,000) - N. Kronwall ($4,750,000) - T. Daley ($3,166,667) - N. Jensen ($812,500)
Left: D. DeKeyser ($5,000,000) - J. Ericsson ($4,250,000) - X. Ouellet ($1,250,000)

GOALTENDER (2)
J. Howard ($5,291,667) - P. Mrazek ($4,000,000)

BUYOUTS
S. Weiss ($2,566,667)

DETAILS
Roster Size: 21
NHL Salary Cap: $75,000,000
Bonus Overages: $457,500
Cap Hit: $72,703,334
Cap Space: $2,296,666

 

That's without AA signed.  If he gets offered $3 mil and they match, they need to clear $703,334 to get compliant with a 22 man roster, and leaves them no room if someone gets hurt.  Who the hell would take Ericsson, even at half his salary?  Trade Glendening and you're going to need to retain salary probably, unless Babcock has a hard on for him and insists on it, which I don't see happening, so that doesn't help much if at all.  Holland won't trade Kronwall because "loyalty!"  He won't trade Green or anyone else who might actually be tradeable because PLAYOFFS BABY!!!!!"  Maybe they can move Mrazek as long as they don't expect anything in return, but that's probably a mistake. Even if they COULD move someone Holland was willing to trade, the other GM would know that Holland is backed into a corner and would have little choice but to take whatever was offered, and any GM with an ounce of functioning brain cells would give him next to nothing.

And that's IF he moves Sheahan for a pick or a lower tiered prospect, which he has shown zero indication that he will do.

so yes, if someone offers AA $3 mil, Holland is screwed, and it's his own fault.

[kickazz 5,459]

52 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

CapFriendly.com Armchair-GM User-Generated Roster

FORWARDS (12)
Right wing: G. Nyquist ($4,750,000) - A. Mantha ($863,333) - D. Larkin ($925,000) - M. Frk ($650,000)
Centre: F. Nielsen ($5,250,000) - D. Helm ($3,850,000) - L. Glendening ($1,800,000) - A. Holmström ($686,667)
Left wing: H. Zetterberg ($6,083,333) - T. Tatar ($5,300,000) - J. Abdelkader ($4,250,000) - L. Witkowski ($750,000)

DEFENSE (7)
Right: M. Green ($6,000,000) - N. Kronwall ($4,750,000) - T. Daley ($3,166,667) - N. Jensen ($812,500)
Left: D. DeKeyser ($5,000,000) - J. Ericsson ($4,250,000) - X. Ouellet ($1,250,000)

GOALTENDER (2)
J. Howard ($5,291,667) - P. Mrazek ($4,000,000)

BUYOUTS
S. Weiss ($2,566,667)

DETAILS
Roster Size: 21
NHL Salary Cap: $75,000,000
Bonus Overages: $457,500
Cap Hit: $72,703,334
Cap Space: $2,296,666

 

That's without AA signed.  If he gets offered $3 mil and they match, they need to clear $703,334 to get compliant with a 22 man roster, and leaves them no room if someone gets hurt.  Who the hell would take Ericsson, even at half his salary?  Trade Glendening and you're going to need to retain salary probably, unless Babcock has a hard on for him and insists on it, which I don't see happening, so that doesn't help much if at all.  Holland won't trade Kronwall because "loyalty!"  He won't trade Green or anyone else who might actually be tradeable because PLAYOFFS BABY!!!!!"  Maybe they can move Mrazek as long as they don't expect anything in return, but that's probably a mistake. Even if they COULD move someone Holland was willing to trade, the other GM would know that Holland is backed into a corner and would have little choice but to take whatever was offered, and any GM with an ounce of functioning brain cells would give him next to nothing.

And that's IF he moves Sheahan for a pick or a lower tiered prospect, which he has shown zero indication that he will do.

so yes, if someone offers AA $3 mil, Holland is screwed, and it's his own fault.

Lol. This entire summer the amount of freak out you have given has been entertaining.

Calm down and wait. 

While you're coming up with scenarios in your head about how "we're screwed and going to lose AA and Holland screwed us over", apparently report just came out that we're still in the running for the FA defenseman Will Butcher.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2017/08/14/red-wings-among-suitors-fa-defenseman-butcher/104608544/

Edited August 16, 2017 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

4 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

CapFriendly.com Armchair-GM User-Generated Roster

FORWARDS (12)
Right wing: G. Nyquist ($4,750,000) - A. Mantha ($863,333) - D. Larkin ($925,000) - M. Frk ($650,000)
Centre: F. Nielsen ($5,250,000) - D. Helm ($3,850,000) - L. Glendening ($1,800,000) - A. Holmström ($686,667)
Left wing: H. Zetterberg ($6,083,333) - T. Tatar ($5,300,000) - J. Abdelkader ($4,250,000) - L. Witkowski ($750,000)

DEFENSE (7)
Right: M. Green ($6,000,000) - N. Kronwall ($4,750,000) - T. Daley ($3,166,667) - N. Jensen ($812,500)
Left: D. DeKeyser ($5,000,000) - J. Ericsson ($4,250,000) - X. Ouellet ($1,250,000)

GOALTENDER (2)
J. Howard ($5,291,667) - P. Mrazek ($4,000,000)

BUYOUTS
S. Weiss ($2,566,667)

DETAILS
Roster Size: 21
NHL Salary Cap: $75,000,000
Bonus Overages: $457,500
Cap Hit: $72,703,334
Cap Space: $2,296,666

 

That's without AA signed.  If he gets offered $3 mil and they match, they need to clear $703,334 to get compliant with a 22 man roster, and leaves them no room if someone gets hurt.  Who the hell would take Ericsson, even at half his salary?  Trade Glendening and you're going to need to retain salary probably, unless Babcock has a hard on for him and insists on it, which I don't see happening, so that doesn't help much if at all.  Holland won't trade Kronwall because "loyalty!"  He won't trade Green or anyone else who might actually be tradeable because PLAYOFFS BABY!!!!!"  Maybe they can move Mrazek as long as they don't expect anything in return, but that's probably a mistake. Even if they COULD move someone Holland was willing to trade, the other GM would know that Holland is backed into a corner and would have little choice but to take whatever was offered, and any GM with an ounce of functioning brain cells would give him next to nothing.

And that's IF he moves Sheahan for a pick or a lower tiered prospect, which he has shown zero indication that he will do.

so yes, if someone offers AA $3 mil, Holland is screwed, and it's his own fault.

Regarding the bolded... a lot of teams would take Ericsson at $2.125M. As long as he can stay healthy, he is a solid 3rd pairing defenseman, and that's a very reasonable cap hit for such a defenseman. Again, ANY player CAN be traded... Now, of course we're talking about Holland here, so I don't have the most confidence in him pulling off a trade either. But until we lose Athanasiou to an offer sheet (not going to happen), or he's forced to sit half the season (very unlikely), I'm not going to get too bent out of shape about it. Like I've said numerous times now, maybe, just maybe, Holland does know something we don't (crazy, I know) about one or two players being unlikely to start the season, despite what he has told media.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

7 hours ago, kickazz said:

Lol. This entire summer the amount of freak out you have given has been entertaining.

Calm down and wait. 

While you're coming up with scenarios in your head about how "we're screwed and going to lose AA and Holland screwed us over", apparently report just came out that we're still in the running for the FA defenseman Will Butcher.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2017/08/14/red-wings-among-suitors-fa-defenseman-butcher/104608544/

Yippee, another free agent kid to overhype and be lucky to get a decent 2nd pair d out of.  Because we don't have any of those.

And sure, maybe AA doesn't get an offer sheet because most GMs seem to have a gentleman's agreement not to give players an offer sheet unless it's for a star, but it's a possibility.  But even if it doesn't happen, Holland is keeping a player in limbo because of his poor cap management.  He has said he doesn't anticipate making any moves so he can see if the mess fixes itself via LTIR, which means AA probably is going to miss most, if not all of camp, which means he isn't going to be fully ready to go once he doesn't finally get signed.  That hurts the team.

I suppose someone COULD take Ericsson, but it's probably going to be a deal where Detroit retains half the salary and gets nothing in return or even has to give them something as an incentive, adding another $2 mil+ in dead money to what they're still paying Weiss.

Holland needs to go ASAP

[krsmith17 7,191]

23 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

Yippee, another free agent kid to overhype and be lucky to get a decent 2nd pair d out of.  Because we don't have any of those.

And sure, maybe AA doesn't get an offer sheet because most GMs seem to have a gentleman's agreement not to give players an offer sheet unless it's for a star, but it's a possibility.  But even if it doesn't happen, Holland is keeping a player in limbo because of his poor cap management.  He has said he doesn't anticipate making any moves so he can see if the mess fixes itself via LTIR, which means AA probably is going to miss most, if not all of camp, which means he isn't going to be fully ready to go once he doesn't finally get signed.  That hurts the team.

I suppose someone COULD take Ericsson, but it's probably going to be a deal where Detroit retains half the salary and gets nothing in return or even has to give them something as an incentive, adding another $2 mil+ in dead money to what they're still paying Weiss.

Holland needs to go ASAP

I agree on Butcher. We don't need him, and I personally don't want him.

There's no question Holland has been awful at cap management, and I agree that he should be gone ASAP, which will likely (hopefully) be after this season. The fact that he's waiting it out, hoping things will work out via LTIR again is absurd.

I haven't really thought about the possibility of Athanasiou missing camp, mostly because I still believe a deal will be made before then, but it is a good point. I'll be pissed along with every other Wings fan if that were to happen, but until it does, I'm not going to get too worked up.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Holland flat out said he's waiting until the end of camp to make a decision, and he won't be able to sign AA until that happens unless he takes a deal for the $1.4 mil the Wings have left.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

46 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

Holland flat out said he's waiting until the end of camp to make a decision, and he won't be able to sign AA until that happens unless he takes a deal for the $1.4 mil the Wings have left.

Teams are allowed to go as much as 10% over the cap in the offseason. That's 7.5 million this year so there's nothing stopping us from signing AA and there's no reason to believe that he'll miss training camp unless he's holding out for larger demands than what we're offering. The deadline to be cap compliant is the first game not training camp.

[kickazz 5,459]

14 minutes ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

Teams are allowed to go as much as 10% over the cap in the offseason. That's 7.5 million this year so there's nothing stopping us from signing AA ....

I've stated this fact in literally 4 posts already. And people still didn't understand or read so I gave up.

Now I'm just an audience member of the meltdown.

Anyways, I wonder if Holland is trying to make a trade happen with AA in the package.

Edited August 16, 2017 by kickazz

[LeftWinger 4,949]

Hoperfully AA isn't hardballing Holland either.  Maybe he doesn't want to play here with Blashill as coach? Not sure what goes on behind the scenes. But honestly, if push comes to shove, offer him the 1 year $1.4M that we have left over and then next season, with a new GM and coaching Staff, he can get a nice deal that he deserves. OR just dump Sheahan for a pick, its that simple. If we have $1.4 to the cap, then that's $3.4M roughly, enough to sign AA for $2.25M bridge and a million for the 13th forward.

regarding Butcher, sign him, he says he isn't against playing in the A for a season if it means having a team get going in the right direction.  Next season he'll make the club with plenty of capo open after Green is dealt and maybe even Mrazek not re-signed if he falls flat again. I don't think Larkin and Mantha should cost us more than $5M combined (unless the somehow score 60-90 points each.) Plus, he'd be worth waiving Sproul or trading XO.

But honestly, if not this year, then for sure next, Kronwall and Ericcson need to be dealt with. K needs to retire and E needs to be dealt for futures or bought out. Neither are on any of those "cap" circumventing contracts (like Franzen and Z) so there shouldn't be any penalty assessed if they retire of get bought out. Trevor Daley and Nick Jensen are going to be (I predict) our best two defensemen this year, and they make less than Green, DD, K and E.

Lets us not forget us acquire that #1 D guy. I read an article somewhere that Winnipeg and Trouba are still at odds and they will have trouble re-signing him after the season, so that's going to be talked about a ton here as well. I love AA, but if he really isn't too keen on playing under Blash, maybe a deal can be struck involving Trouba and AA in a package. But I'd rather just get rid of Blashill before AA.

Edited August 16, 2017 by LeftWinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

Hoperfully AA isn't hardballing Holland either.  Maybe he doesn't want to play here with Blashill as coach? Not sure what goes on behind the scenes. But honestly, if push comes to shove, offer him the 1 year $1.4M that we have left over and then next season, with a new GM and coaching Staff, he can get a nice deal that he deserves. OR just dump Sheahan for a pick, its that simple. If we have $1.4 to the cap, then that's $3.4M roughly, enough to sign AA for $2.25M bridge and a million for the 13th forward.

regarding Butcher, sign him, he says he isn't against playing in the A for a season if it means having a team get going in the right direction.  Next season he'll make the club with plenty of capo open after Green is dealt and maybe even Mrazek not re-signed if he falls flat again. I don't think Larkin and Mantha should cost us more than $5M combined (unless the somehow score 60-90 points each.) Plus, he'd be worth waiving Sproul or trading XO.

But honestly, if not this year, then for sure next, Kronwall and Ericcson need to be dealt with. K needs to retire and E needs to be dealt for futures or bought out. Neither are on any of those "cap" circumventing contracts (like Franzen and Z) so there shouldn't be any penalty assessed if they retire of get bought out. Trevor Daley and Nick Jensen are going to be (I predict) our best two defensemen this year, and they make less than Green, DD, K and E.

Lets us not forget us acquire that #1 D guy. I read an article somewhere that Winnipeg and Trouba are still at odds and they will have trouble re-signing him after the season, so that's going to be talked about a ton here as well. I love AA, but if he really isn't too keen on playing under Blash, maybe a deal can be struck involving Trouba and AA in a package. But I'd rather just get rid of Blashill before AA.

So we sign Butcher, and send him down to the AHL. Then what? He takes valuable minutes away from Hicketts, Hronek and Saarijarvi. No thanks. Again, we have more than enough depth at defense, we need high end talent, and that's not going to come from a college free agent signing or UFA signing. We need to acquire that coveted top end defenseman through the draft or via trade. What makes you think that Butcher is better than Ouellet or Sproul? He may be, but I doubt it and certainly wouldn't bank on it.

Do you have a link to that article on Trouba?

[LeftWinger 4,949]

45 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

So we sign Butcher, and send him down to the AHL. Then what? He takes valuable minutes away from Hicketts, Hronek and Saarijarvi. No thanks. Again, we have more than enough depth at defense, we need high end talent, and that's not going to come from a college free agent signing or UFA signing. We need to acquire that coveted top end defenseman through the draft or via trade. What makes you think that Butcher is better than Ouellet or Sproul? He may be, but I doubt it and certainly wouldn't bank on it.

Do you have a link to that article on Trouba?

https://www.prohockeyrumors.com/winnipeg-jets

 

[LeftWinger 4,949]

All this says Will Butcher is ahead of all of our depth D in GR already:   2015-16 Univ. of Denver  NCAA 39 9 23 32 19 19 |                2016-17 Univ. of Denver  NCAA 43 7 30 37 18 27   2016-2017 NCAA (Championship) All-Tournament Team   NCAA (Championship) Winner   NCAA (NCHC) Best Offensive Defenseman   NCAA (NCHC) First All-Star Team   NCAA (NCHC) Player of the Year   NCAA (NCHC) Reg. Season Champion (Penrose Cup)   NCAA (West) First All-American Team   NCAA Lowes Senior Class All-Americans 2nd Team   NCAA Top Collegiate Player (Hobey Baker Award)   NCAA Top Collegiate Player (Hobey Baker Award) Finalist

Edited August 16, 2017 by LeftWinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

8 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

All this says Will Butcher is ahead of all of our depth D in GR already:   2015-16 Univ. of Denver  NCAA 39 9 23 32 19 19 |                2016-17 Univ. of Denver  NCAA 43 7 30 37 18 27   2016-2017 NCAA (Championship) All-Tournament Team   NCAA (Championship) Winner   NCAA (NCHC) Best Offensive Defenseman   NCAA (NCHC) First All-Star Team   NCAA (NCHC) Player of the Year   NCAA (NCHC) Reg. Season Champion (Penrose Cup)   NCAA (West) First All-American Team   NCAA Lowes Senior Class All-Americans 2nd Team   NCAA Top Collegiate Player (Hobey Baker Award)   NCAA Top Collegiate Player (Hobey Baker Award) Finalist

No it doesn't. We were on the winning end of a college free agent signing two years ago. Exact same situation. Russo was drafted by the Islanders, refused to sign and became a free agent, and signed with us.

Russo put up slightly better numbers (41 points (15 goals, 26 assists) in 40 games vs. 37 points (7 goals, 30 assists) in 43 games) at the same age. He also had a slightly better points per game (0.66 vs. 0.65) during his time in the NCAA. Do you think Butcher is that much better than Russo? Do you think Russo is anything more than a depth defenseman?

Sproul also has a ton of accomplishments over the years, including CHL defenseman of the year, OHL first All-Star team, OHL most points by a defenseman / most goals by a defenseman (back to back years), OHL most outstanding defenseman, AHL all rookie team. And yet most here, including yourself are ready to give up on him at the age of 24, despite not getting much of an opportunity at the NHL level...

There's a ton of hype surrounding Butcher right now because it's the dead of the offseason. I'd be shocked if he develops into anything more than a bottom pair (maybe lower level middle pair) defenseman, and we already have a surplus of those. 

I hope he signs with Minnesota tomorrow, so we can stop hearing all the overhype on this kid...

[LeftWinger 4,949]

Well obviously the organization thinks very highly of him to "do everything they can" to sign him. Maybe they feel he is higher on the scale than Russo. Besides, I don't recall 30 teams all wanting to sign Russo. But 31 say they want Butcher, even Colorado, but he isn't going there obviously. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

43 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Well obviously the organization thinks very highly of him to "do everything they can" to sign him. Maybe they feel he is higher on the scale than Russo. Besides, I don't recall 30 teams all wanting to sign Russo. But 31 say they want Butcher, even Colorado, but he isn't going there obviously. 

There was plenty of interest in Russo across the league, maybe not quite as much as there has been in Butcher, but does that mean he will be that much better? All 31 teams want Butcher? Really? I haven't seen / heard / read that anywhere...

[Buppy 1,720]

6 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

So we sign Butcher, and send him down to the AHL. Then what? He takes valuable minutes away from Hicketts, Hronek and Saarijarvi. No thanks. Again, we have more than enough depth at defense, we need high end talent, and that's not going to come from a college free agent signing or UFA signing. We need to acquire that coveted top end defenseman through the draft or via trade. ...

I don't understand the opposition to Butcher. Why would he take anything away from anyone, unless he's better? And by that same logic, wouldn't everyone else also have to better for one of the kids you mention to lose out? And if he is better than one of our current kids, how is that not a good thing? Even if it doesn't solve our defense problem, better is still better, and it's not like signing him would have any impact on our ability to acquire any high-end talent.

[krsmith17 7,191]

20 minutes ago, Buppy said:

I don't understand the opposition to Butcher. Why would he take anything away from anyone, unless he's better? And by that same logic, wouldn't everyone else also have to better for one of the kids you mention to lose out? And if he is better than one of our current kids, how is that not a good thing? Even if it doesn't solve our defense problem, better is still better, and it's not like signing him would have any impact on our ability to acquire any high-end talent.

Does the better player always win the job with this team though? I know you're going to say yes, but I'd argue no. So, we sign him and he makes the Wings out of camp, Sproul gets waived and claimed. Butcher ends up being a mediocre bottom pairing defenseman, while Sproul ends up being a 2nd pairing, power-play specialist. Not saying that's what would happen, but it would be a possibility. A chance I personally wouldn't want to take. Scenario two, we sign him, and assign him to Grand Rapids. He likely wouldn't take minutes from Lashoff, Renouf, Russo or Hicketts, but he could take minutes and a spot in the lineup from Hronek and / or Saarijarvi because he's "more experienced" (not necessarily the better player). 

This is all my personal opinion, and I just doubt he's anything more than a depth defenseman at the NHL level. I'd prefer to develop the kids we have coming up, over a 22 year old, undersized, former 5th round pick, that put up decent numbers in college. Maybe he ends up developing into another Rafalski type player, but I guess that's a risk I'd take on not pursuing him. I think it's a lot more likely he develops into another Russo type (if that good)...

[LeftWinger 4,949]

I'm tired of not taking risks. We didn't draft Tippett because Holland wanted to play it safe a draft a center, not even the best one available either. We don't take risks of firesaling our aging players because Holland thinks they'll miraculously return to 2008 form. Take a risk and put your deserving kids in the top 6 and demote players that haven't earned a top 6 spot.

Take the risk and sign butcher, if he's better than what we have, great. If he never makes it out of the A, no loss.

[kliq 3,755]

1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

I'm tired of not taking risks. We didn't draft Tippett because Holland wanted to play it safe a draft a center, not even the best one available either. We don't take risks of firesaling our aging players because Holland thinks they'll miraculously return to 2008 form. Take a risk and put your deserving kids in the top 6 and demote players that haven't earned a top 6 spot.

Take the risk and sign butcher, if he's better than what we have, great. If he never makes it out of the A, no loss.

Are you seriously trying to sell that Rasmussen was the "safe pick"? I think 99% of people would agree that the "safe pick" would have been Vilardi. Rasmussen is the epitome of a "risk" being that from all accounts he is no sure thing. I'm not even defending the pick, but it clearly was a risk.

I also don't see how signing Butcher to a minimum contract is a risk. I agree that Holland needs to take more risks, but these are horrible examples.

I think you are equating "risk" to Holland just doing what you want him to do. A risk would be trading AA for a potential top pairing D-man. Would you want this? I'm guessing no.

Edited August 17, 2017 by kliq

[kickazz 5,459]

A handful of GMs around the league think there's something Butcher. Makes you wonder

[Buppy 1,720]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Does the better player always win the job with this team though? I know you're going to say yes, but I'd argue no. So, we sign him and he makes the Wings out of camp, Sproul gets waived and claimed. Butcher ends up being a mediocre bottom pairing defenseman, while Sproul ends up being a 2nd pairing, power-play specialist. Not saying that's what would happen, but it would be a possibility. A chance I personally wouldn't want to take. Scenario two, we sign him, and assign him to Grand Rapids. He likely wouldn't take minutes from Lashoff, Renouf, Russo or Hicketts, but he could take minutes and a spot in the lineup from Hronek and / or Saarijarvi because he's "more experienced" (not necessarily the better player). 

This is all my personal opinion, and I just doubt he's anything more than a depth defenseman at the NHL level. I'd prefer to develop the kids we have coming up, over a 22 year old, undersized, former 5th round pick, that put up decent numbers in college. Maybe he ends up developing into another Rafalski type player, but I guess that's a risk I'd take on not pursuing him. I think it's a lot more likely he develops into another Russo type (if that good)...

But are you arguing that the better player usually doesn't win the job? If not, why are you so threatened by Butcher?

You don't want to take the risk of losing Sproul and seeing him turn out better, but you're perfectly fine with the risk of not going after Butcher and seeing him turn out better. And why would there be any risk of losing Sproul at all, unless Butcher is not just better than Sproul, but also good enough to be a regular starter? We aren't going to waive Sproul just so we can have a likely more expensive and waiver-exempt 8th defenseman. 

And in your second scenario, I would argue that if Hronek or Saarijarvi (or Cholowski for that matter) can't take a spot from someone in GR, despite the "experience", then a year in junior or Toledo would likely benefit them. It's not like our defense sets that high a bar.

[marcaractac 3,962]

8 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

I'm tired of not taking risks. We didn't draft Tippett because Holland wanted to play it safe a draft a center, not even the best one available either. We don't take risks of firesaling our aging players because Holland thinks they'll miraculously return to 2008 form. Take a risk and put your deserving kids in the top 6 and demote players that haven't earned a top 6 spot.

Take the risk and sign butcher, if he's better than what we have, great. If he never makes it out of the A, no loss.

Holland didn't draft Tippett because a winger is not this team's pressing need. A high end dman and center is. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

6 hours ago, kliq said:

Are you seriously trying to sell that Rasmussen was the "safe pick"? I think 99% of people would agree that the "safe pick" would have been Vilardi. Rasmussen is the epitome of a "risk" being that from all accounts he is no sure thing. I'm not even defending the pick, but it clearly was a risk.

I also don't see how signing Butcher to a minimum contract is a risk. I agree that Holland needs to take more risks, but these are horrible examples.

I think you are equating "risk" to Holland just doing what you want him to do. A risk would be trading AA for a potential top pairing D-man. Would you want this? I'm guessing no.

I would. Trade Athanasiou for Jake Bean. Carolina gets much needed help up front, and we get that potential number one defenseman that we so desperately need, while freeing up cap space. I love AA, but we have a few top line potential forwards. I'm not sure if we have a single top pair potential defenseman. Maybe Cholowski develops into one, but we'd still need another.

5 hours ago, Buppy said:

But are you arguing that the better player usually doesn't win the job? If not, why are you so threatened by Butcher?

You don't want to take the risk of losing Sproul and seeing him turn out better, but you're perfectly fine with the risk of not going after Butcher and seeing him turn out better. And why would there be any risk of losing Sproul at all, unless Butcher is not just better than Sproul, but also good enough to be a regular starter? We aren't going to waive Sproul just so we can have a likely more expensive and waiver-exempt 8th defenseman. 

And in your second scenario, I would argue that if Hronek or Saarijarvi (or Cholowski for that matter) can't take a spot from someone in GR, despite the "experience", then a year in junior or Toledo would likely benefit them. It's not like our defense sets that high a bar.

I'm not "threatened by Butcher", I just don't think he will be anything more than a depth defenseman at the NHL level. Regarding the bolded, that's exactly what will happen if we sign Butcher. So why would a team that is up against the cap, can't afford to sign one of their better young forwards, attempt to sign a mediocre, more expensive defenseman, just so they can waive one of their own? I'd be shocked if Butcher is much, if at all better than Sproul, and I'd rather keep the 6'4", 210lbs defenseman that we have developed for the past 5 years and still has a ton of upside, over the 5'10", 190lbs defenseman from the outside that might be as good as a Russo or Hicketts.

I find it hilarious that LeftWinger, of all people, is on board with this signing. He goes off every day about how we can't afford to sign Athanasiou, but he wants to sign a bottom pair defenseman, when we already have 8 that are more than capable of filling out the bottom half of the defense...

If we signed Butcher and traded a Russo, Renouf, McIlrath or Hicketts, whatever, mediocre in, mediocre out. But I do believe that too much depth at one position can be a bad thing, and I also don't agree with developing high end prospects in Toledo. For the most part, players (not goalies) that are developed in the ECHL, never develop into anything more than lower end players. Do you think Hronek and Saarijarvi are lower end prospects?

Detroit - Guaranteed a spot - Daley, Green, DeKeyser, Jensen, Kronwall, Ericsson (6) Fighting for a spot - Ouellet, Sproul (2)

Grand Rapids - Guaranteed a spot - Lashoff, Russo, Renouf, McIlrath, Hicketts (5) / Fighting for a spot - Hronek, Saarijarvi, Sulak (3)

So I ask again, where does Butcher fit in? Detroit? We lose at least one, possibly two of Ouellet and Sproul. Grand Rapids? Both Hronek and Saarijarvi start in Toledo.

[Dabura 12,207]

18 hours ago, F.Michael said:

AA + Green for Matt Duchene

GETTERDUNKEN