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Red Wings sign D Trevor Daley to 3 year, 3.166m/yr contract, includes NTC/Modified NTC.

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3 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Blah blah blah they know what they're doing even though the team is stuck in neutral... blah blah blah don' question Dear Leader... blah blah blah your opinion is worthless....

It is worthless. About the only fact you've actually said in a while. Congrats.

Edited by kickazz

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47 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Why bother discuss the Red Wings? Our opinions mean nothing. Shut down the board...

Well, they don't mean anything. That's the truth. Doesn't mean you need to shut the board down over it. 

Don't need to jump to extreme conclusions over hard truths lol. 

Problem is people delusionally start posting as thought their opinion is fact. 

Edited by kickazz

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20 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Well, they don't mean anything. That's the truth. Doesn't mean you need to shut the board down over it. 

Don't need to jump to extreme conclusions over hard truths lol. 

Problem is people delusionally start posting as thought their opinion is fact. 

Who does this? I sure as hell don't. Pretty much everything I write here is "my opinion" and I state it exactly as that. You disagree with some of my opinions, and try to state YOUR opinion as fact. Daley is a good defenseman that should help out our team now, just not sure it's the best signing for our team in the future. Anyway, I'm done with this discussion.

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On 7/3/2017 at 7:20 PM, krsmith17 said:

Bringing in a veteran like Daley makes no sense to me, unless Kronwall or Ericsson weren't ready to go, which it appears they are now. Not a great signing for this team in my opinion.

 

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I said several times it's a great signing, just not one that we should have made in our position (my opinion). That's me saying I don't think it was the right decision and being critical of that decision.

This is why this conversation keeps going around in circles.

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7 minutes ago, xtrememachine1 said:

This is why this conversation keeps going around in circles.

The key to that first post you quoted was "for this team". The cap hit and term is great, making it a great contract. Not a good contract for this team to sign where we sit right now though in my opinion.

The conversation keeps going around in circles because some don't like differing opinions and try their hardest to change them. Some people think it's a great signing for this team, and they may be right, but I disagree. Difference is, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion on the signing.

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31 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Who does this? I sure as hell don't. Pretty much everything I write here is "my opinion" and I state it exactly as that. You disagree with some of my opinions, and try to state YOUR opinion as fact. Daley is a good defenseman that should help out our team now, just not sure it's the best signing for our team in the future. Anyway, I'm done with this discussion.

No lol. You only revert to "my opinion" when you no longer want to discuss it and the facts are being pointed out as untrue. But until then, you're really trying to convince (someone or yourself) that what you're saying is right. "My opinion" is a great exit strategy in a debate. 

But I'm a savage so I'll go ahead and say your opinion on the Daley signing is:

Wrong.

...Or right?

I can't tell because for a bunch of posts you said the signing isn't a good one for the team. But then a few posts ago you just said it's great for the team lol.

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1 hour ago, kickazz said:

Well, they don't mean anything. That's the truth. Doesn't mean you need to shut the board down over it. 

Don't need to jump to extreme conclusions over hard truths lol. 

Problem is people delusionally start posting as thought their opinion is fact. 

Do you need people to spell it out for you that everything they say is their opinion? Are we not all adult enough to infer that already?

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43 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

You disagree with some of my opinions, and try to state YOUR opinion as fact. 

I sure as hell do, except they aren't opinions, they're facts. But not about something that hasn't even come into fruition. Rasmussen, Daley. Wtf do I know how it will pan out. You and others are already writing it off. Excuse me for trying to be positive about it and trying to see Holland's perspective. 

But yeah your "opinions" on Jurco, Smith, etc. I have vehemently disagreed with them because there's facts proving your "opinion" wrong about them. Same thing about my rants about Jonathan Toews. Opinion from TSN and homer fans are that he is a top 100 NHL player. But he's not, factually, statistically, visually blah blah blah. He isn't. 

 

Edited by kickazz

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9 minutes ago, kickazz said:

No lol. You only revert to "my opinion" when you no longer want to discuss it and the facts are being pointed out as untrue. But until then, you're really trying to convince (someone or yourself) that what you're saying is right. "My opinion" is a great exit strategy in a debate. 

But I'm a savage so I'll go ahead and say your opinion on the Daley signing is:

Wrong.

...Or right?

I can't tell because for a bunch of posts you said the signing isn't a good one for the team. But then a few posts ago you just said it's great for the team lol.

Never once said the signing was great for the team... 

5 minutes ago, kickazz said:

I sure as hell do, except they aren't opinions, they're facts. But not about something that hasn't even come into fruition. Rasmussen, Daley. Wtf do I know how it will pan out. You and others are already writing it off. Excuse me for trying to be positive about it and trying to see Holland's perspective. 

But yeah your "opinions" on Jurco, Smith, etc. I have vehemently disagreed with them because there's facts proving your "opinion" wrong about them. Same thing about my rants about Jonathan Toews. Opinion from TSN and homer fans are that he is a top 100 NHL player. But he's not, factually, statistically, visually blah blah blah. He isn't. 

Yeah, kind of the way you're stating Sproul not being an offensive defenseman as fact.

Also, regarding Smith and Jurco. I always said Smith will develop into a top 4 defenseman. He has. Fact. I stand by the fact that I believe Jurco was mishandled in Detroit. Maybe he'd be a different player today if his development was handled differently. Maybe not. At this point, I could care less. I never once stated any of those opinions as fact, but whatever. 

Hey kickazz, grass is green.

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In my opinion, I don't think the signing really does much to move the team forward.  I don't think it hurts any forward progression, but I don't think it helps either.  He'll make the team better this year, but I don't think that should really be the focus, the team won't be good enough to compete for the Cup in the next few years, so making the team better right away won't really do much because you can't make the team that much better.

Just my opinion and I could be totally wrong....you never know, sometimes teams ramp up very, very quickly and then fall really quickly because they can't keep the team together.

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2 minutes ago, toby91_ca said:

In my opinion, I don't think the signing really does much to move the team forward.  I don't think it hurts any forward progression, but I don't think it helps either.  He'll make the team better this year, but I don't think that should really be the focus, the team won't be good enough to compete for the Cup in the next few years, so making the team better right away won't really do much because you can't make the team that much better.

Just my opinion and I could be totally wrong....you never know, sometimes teams ramp up very, very quickly and then fall really quickly because they can't keep the team together.

Good thing you made that part clear... But yeah, I totally agree. Daley is still a very good defenseman, but not the direction I would have gone. Let's just hope it all works out. I'm not going to wish injury on anyone, but it wouldn't be the worst thing if one of Kronwall / Ericsson miss some time...

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6 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Blah blah blah they know what they're doing even though the team is stuck in neutral... blah blah blah don' question Dear Leader... blah blah blah your opinion is worthless....

The point I was trying to make is that fans like to give their opinions from a far, but in reality they don't know every variable at play as much as they think they might. There is nothing wrong with giving your opinion, but when fans start to confuse their personal opinion with facts, that is where I begin to lose respect of a person's post. I'm not even really directing this at you, I think you tend to post in a very cynical tone (though it's kind of your gimmick), at times hyperbolic, and sometimes a bit childish (ie. Trashill, the post above) but you don't tend to post in a way where you make firm assumptions based on nothing.

 

4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

There's not a doubt in my mind that Ken Holland knows more about managing a hockey team than myself or anyone else here. That doesn't mean he doesn't make mistakes, some so obvious, even to mere mortals... I'm not even saying that the Daley signing is one of those. I said several times it's a great signing, just not one that we should have made in our position (my opinion). That's me saying I don't think it was the right decision and being critical of that decision. Some here don't like that though. "Don't ever question the Holland"... "You're just a fan"... "You don't know s***"...

I'm not saying we should not make the playoffs, I'm saying that should not be the number one priority for this season (and maybe not the next). The priority should be building this team back into a Cup contender, instead of a playoff contender. Playing young guys instead of signing stop-gap vets, doesn't take too much away from this year, and could potentially make us much better in future years. Again, my opinion.

No one is really saying that Rasmussen sucks or will never become an NHL player. What people are saying is that there were better players still on the board at 9. Those same people that evaluate hockey prospects for a living, that had him ranked in the top half of the draft, also had him behind Vilardi and Tippett. I think it was the wrong selection, only time will tell. Regardless, he is a Red Wing now, and I'll be rooting him on every step of the way, hoping he becomes a legit number one center in the mold of a Getzlaf.

For the record, my comment was not directed towards you at all, my comment was in response to the poster who was going on about Holland being an idiot for even discussing the idea of Larkin playing on this team. I think there is nothing wrong with questioning Holland.

I admit you are not, but some others have been ripping into this kid. Off the top of my head, I can already remember Lefty creating some some nickname  (like errection, errorson, francine etc.) in the draft thread.

 

 

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4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

There's not a doubt in my mind that Ken Holland knows more about managing a hockey team than myself or anyone else here. That doesn't mean he doesn't make mistakes, some so obvious, even to mere mortals... I'm not even saying that the Daley signing is one of those. I said several times it's a great signing, just not one that we should have made in our position (my opinion). That's me saying I don't think it was the right decision and being critical of that decision. Some here don't like that though. "Don't ever question the Holland"... "You're just a fan"... "You don't know s***"...

I'm not saying we should not make the playoffs, I'm saying that should not be the number one priority for this season (and maybe not the next). The priority should be building this team back into a Cup contender, instead of a playoff contender. Playing young guys instead of signing stop-gap vets, doesn't take too much away from this year, and could potentially make us much better in future years. Again, my opinion....

You're still creating a false dilemma here. Building for the future and trying to make the playoffs are not mutually exclusive. I'm pretty sure you have made that exact argument in the past. But now when Daley is threatening one of your pet prospects, you're going the other way. Furthermore, Daley isn't even necessarily taking anything away from Sproul or any other kid. We could just as easily give up on Sproul without Daley, or he could play every game with him. And finally, even if Daley does for sure take a spot away from a kid, and that kid will eventually turn into a decent top 4, it is still a gross exaggeration to suggest that it would have any serious impact on our future.

You're inventing arguments based on emotion rather than really thinking about anything. You want to see Sproul play. Fine. You don't need to justify that opinion. But if you want to say Holland is dumb for maybe not sharing it, you should come up with something more than a pile of logical fallacies.

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For the record, my comment was not directed towards you at all, my comment was in response to the poster who was going on about Holland being an idiot for even discussing the idea of Larkin playing on this team. I think there is nothing wrong with questioning Holland.
I admit you are not, but some others have been ripping into this kid. Off the top of my head, I can already remember Lefty creating some some nickname  (like errection, errorson, francine etc.) in the draft thread.
 
 

I have a cynical tone because that's how I feel about the direction of the team lately, including keeping Blashill. I had hopes for him, but the team has regressed farther than the talent level suggests it should be. As I've said before, they're in Lions territory now, be just good enough to keep fans spending money. It pisses me off.

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20 minutes ago, Buppy said:

You're still creating a false dilemma here. Building for the future and trying to make the playoffs are not mutually exclusive. I'm pretty sure you have made that exact argument in the past. But now when Daley is threatening one of your pet prospects, you're going the other way. Furthermore, Daley isn't even necessarily taking anything away from Sproul or any other kid. We could just as easily give up on Sproul without Daley, or he could play every game with him. And finally, even if Daley does for sure take a spot away from a kid, and that kid will eventually turn into a decent top 4, it is still a gross exaggeration to suggest that it would have any serious impact on our future.

You're inventing arguments based on emotion rather than really thinking about anything. You want to see Sproul play. Fine. You don't need to justify that opinion. But if you want to say Holland is dumb for maybe not sharing it, you should come up with something more than a pile of logical fallacies.

If Sproul was traded it wouldn't bother me a bit, just like it didn't when Jurco was traded. So don't give me that "pet prospect" bulls***. You can say all you want that I'm "creating a false dilemma", but my opinion is that if we're trying to build for the future, we shouldn't have signed more veterans. Signing more players, whether it was Daley or some other vet, does take a spot from one of the kids, directly or indirectly. That is a fact, unless of course Holland makes a trade (not going to happen), or Blashill scratches Ericsson or Kronwall (not going to happen). I'd prefer to develop Sproul into a top 4, power-play quarterback, that can be a part of our future, than sign any vet that won't be part of the future. Again, my opinion. I'm going to cheer just as loudly as the next guy for Daley while he wears the Winged Wheel, but it's just not a signing I would have made. Why does that bother you so much?

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22 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

If Sproul was traded it wouldn't bother me a bit, just like it didn't when Jurco was traded. So don't give me that "pet prospect" bulls***. You can say all you want that I'm "creating a false dilemma", but my opinion is that if we're trying to build for the future, we shouldn't have signed more veterans. Signing more players, whether it was Daley or some other vet, does take a spot from one of the kids, directly or indirectly. That is a fact, unless of course Holland makes a trade (not going to happen), or Blashill scratches Ericsson or Kronwall (not going to happen). I'd prefer to develop Sproul into a top 4, power-play quarterback, that can be a part of our future, than sign any vet that won't be part of the future. Again, my opinion. I'm going to cheer just as loudly as the next guy for Daley while he wears the Winged Wheel, but it's just not a signing I would have made. Why does that bother you so much?

You disliking the Daley signing doesn't bother me at all. 

You suggesting that because of the Daley signing we can't still develop Sproul does, because it's wrong.

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8 minutes ago, Buppy said:

You disliking the Daley signing doesn't bother me at all. 

You suggesting that because of the Daley signing we can't still develop Sproul does, because it's wrong.

So you're saying that adding a defenseman to a roster that already consisted of 7 defensemen, doesn't in any way effect any of the defensemen on the lower end of the totem pole?

We can't develop him in the minors, so where do you suggest we develop him? Unless you're assuming there will be injuries, which I guess is a fair assumption, but certainly no guarantee.

Maybe (hopefully) Holland knows something regarding the health of Kronwall / Ericsson...

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Hopefully kronwall is headed to ltir...I think that we've developed 2 out of our 3 young prospects into full time nhl dmen in Jensen and Ouellette. Sproul does not impress me at all he's softer than Jensen and Ouellette in our zone does not win puck battles as consistently as needed, is a average at best skater and can't consistently get his shot to the net...I wouldn't mind trading/waiving him and prefer daley for 3 yrs while hronek,saajarvi, Hicketts to get their shot. Heck I'd take a responsible shot at signing green back after this year 3yr/3m type money...he's not part of the problem and we're not magically going to land a #1 fa without losing the forward talent we do have...keep drafting d and while they develop keep developing dk, Ouellette, Jensen with the big club and keep the #2-3 range dmen we do have...Jensen has potential to be top pairing guy, dk is top 4...can play top 2 with right partner...Ericson's ntc becomes modified after this yr making easier to possibly unload him. After next yr we could conceivably be free of kronwall, Ericsson, Sproul and have 2-3 openings (depending on green) for guys like Russo, sulak, hronek, saajarvi to fight for while dk, Jensen, daley lead

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3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

So you're saying that adding a defenseman to a roster that already consisted of 7 defensemen, doesn't in any way effect any of the defensemen on the lower end of the totem pole?

We can't develop him in the minors, so where do you suggest we develop him? Unless you're assuming there will be injuries, which I guess is a fair assumption, but certainly no guarantee.

Maybe (hopefully) Holland knows something regarding the health of Kronwall / Ericsson...

Not really what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that the person affected (if anyone) is not necessarily going to be Sproul, or even a kid at all.

I would say that Sproul is the most likely, since he is likely already 8th (or lower) on the depth chart, and I don't have much confidence in his ability to elevate himself above that. Curious that you'd be so high on his potential, but also lack confidence in his ability to pull himself up the ladder. Probably because you believe he's already being mishandled and mistreated, though if that were true I don't see why it would be any different without Daley...

And speaking of "or lower", that is a possibility as well. It's possible Russo and/or others have already moved ahead of Sproul, and he would be done here even without signing Daley.

But assuming that isn't true, and he's currently 8th, I would assume based on recent history that would get ~10 games at the low end, if he's not able to climb up the depth chart. And if he isn't able to pass even one person in our mediocre squad, even with limited game opportunity, then he doesn't deserve anything more and people should start to reconsider their opinions of him. His poor play last year has likely put him in the position of having little margin for error going forward, but the opportunity is there. All he needs to do is play well. Camp, pre-season, practice, and games. The bar he has to get over isn't particularly high; if he's as good as you think it shouldn't be a problem.

And finally, I would say that even if he fails in his opportunities, or even if he doesn't get any opportunity at all this year; if he's a healthy scratch all 82 games; it still wouldn't totally preclude the possibility of him developing into something in the future. 

So I reiterate: Sign Daley .vs develop Sproul is a false dilemma.

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