Red Wings sign D Trevor Daley to 3 year, 3.166m/yr contract, includes NTC/Modified NTC.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

6 minutes ago, Never_Retire_Steve said:

I love CRLs optimism. I wish I was on the same side. Let's hope I'm wrong.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

"Just gotta get in...then anything can happen" -Ken...im somewhat joking but I actually don't really disagree with this. Last year in the west we had eventual Champs down 3-1 in 2nd round.

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And still lost

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[jaymac17 10]

And still lost

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Great observation...what I'm saying is that as a 7 seed we played 14 games, beat the 2 seed and gave the hardest series of their playoffs to the cup champions. We were not supposed to do anything but that didn't matter once we were in we finished as one of the top 8 teams in the league

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[Buppy 1,720]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

You (and Buppy) specifically said that Sproul isn't an offensive defenseman. What is he then? Certainly not a defensive defenseman, nor a two-way. Definitely not an enforcer... What the hell is he? At this point in his career he is an offensive defenseman, a great one in junior, a good one in the AHL, and yet to be determined in the NHL. How well a player plays, does not determine his "style" of play. I would consider Ericsson a defensive defenseman. Not a great one, but one nonetheless. ......

Actually what I did was make a somewhat snide joke about you using the term, in order to imply that Sproul's offense in the NHL has sucked thus far, and so he doesn't yet truly deserve the label in reference to him as an NHL player.

What I would say he is at this point in the NHL is nothing. A prospect. Late stage one on the verge of washing out if he doesn't start taking better advantage of his opportunities. 

But the label isn't really the point. It's the implication behind the label. You can call him a Norris trophy winner if you want so long as you acknowledge that he hasn't actually won a Norris trophy. You call him an "offensive defenseman" it implies he's good at offense. Or at least better at offense than a "defensive defenseman". Implies that you believe Sproul is better offensively than Ouellet. That may have been true at some points in their development, and may again become true in the future, but it was not true this year. Really wasn't even true their last two seasons in GR. There's plenty of reason to doubt that it will be true this coming year. Ericsson scored just as well as Sproul in the AHL, and the NHL so far.

So call him whatever you want, just recognize that it doesn't mean anything. Be willing to look past your preconceptions and judge players by how they play rather than the label you've attached to them and/or whatever potential peak you think they might someday reach.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Great observation...what I'm saying is that as a 7 seed we played 14 games, beat the 2 seed and gave the hardest series of their playoffs to the cup champions. We were not supposed to do anything but that didn't matter once we were in we finished as one of the top 8 teams in the league

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That team was far better than the current one and wasn't good enough

Take out the trash and fire Holland and Blash!!!!!!

[kickazz 5,459]

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

It is

Hard to tell isn't it.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Hard to tell isn't it.

Perhaps...

[kickazz 5,459]

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

You (and Buppy) specifically said that Sproul isn't an offensive defenseman. What is he then? Certainly not a defensive defenseman, nor a two-way. Definitely not an enforcer... What the hell is he? At this point in his career he is an offensive defenseman, a great one in junior, a good one in the AHL, and yet to be determined in the NHL. How well a player plays, does not determine his "style" of play. I would consider Ericsson a defensive defenseman. Not a great one, but one nonetheless. The fact that you're still arguing that is absurd. Your superman analogy is too dumb to get into.. By the way, I'm not stating that number as fact... just so you know...

What are you? Donald Trump? Reverting to name calling in a debate lol. 

I gave you that analogy because even normal words weren't getting to you so I had to revert to a troll analogy (hoping maybe that's what it would take). And even with all that, and even with Buppy's last post, you won't get it.  Label Smith, Jurco, Sproul however you want, if they aren't factually performing that way then it doesn't mean anything. It's just your made up opinion that isn't true. Factually. And I think the point that hits it home most is that you call Ericsson a defensive defensmen and Sproul and offensive defenseman yet both their offensive production have been similar (apparently). 

 

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Smith WAS an offensive defenseman coming into the league. He never did develop the way we had hoped (maybe Sproul never will either), so he had to work on his defensive game and mold himself into more of a two-way defenseman. Maybe the same will happen with Sproul, or maybe he'll continue being an offensive defenseman as a career AHLer.

Don't care, he wasn't an offensive defenseman in the NHL. You guys kept calling him one WHILE he was in the NHL. And he isn't one, hasn't been one, and likely will not be one. And that's exactly my point about Sproul. You're doing the same with Sproul as you did with Smith. As whoever said in the earlier post. "Sproul is a nothing". A prospect that MIGHT become something down the road. Obviously the expectation is he becomes an offensive defenseman. That's the hope. But he hasn't proven anything yet. 

Edited July 7, 2017 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

You can predict all you want. If I believe Sproul is being mishandled, I will speak my opinion on that (I know that will bother you...). However, I will never blame Daley for it, just like I never blamed Vanek or anyone else for the way Jurco was handled here.

Alright good. So then we agree that the Daley signing isn't going to affect Sproul's future whatsoever? 

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Like marcaractic said yesterday, "Do you need people to spell it out for you that everything they say is their opinion? Are we not all adult enough to infer that already?" Obviously me saying we won't be contenders in the next 3 years is my opinion. An opinion that most would agree with. Let's ask the most optimistic Red Wings fans if they think we will be Cup contenders in the next 3 years. I bet you'd get 95% say "No"... By the way, I'm not stating that number as fact... just so you know...

Cool. I say your opinion is wrong and we make the playoffs within the next 3 years. And making the playoffs automatically makes us a contender towards the Stanley cup. One of the 16 teams contending for the cup in best of seven series. 

You like to tag the whole "my opinion" thing as if it's going to bail you out. Not really. Opinions can be right and wrong. And what I'm saying is. You're wrong (not about the cup contender thing, but about the Sproul thing). I certainly hope you are right about Sproul down the road though. And I CERTAINLY hope that your opinion is wrong about us not being a contender within the next 3 years. 

Btw if the following (below) is an opinion; it's not much of a Newsflash then lol. It's not news (which generally is supposed to be factual information). It's not flash. It's nothing. Because opinions are meaningless and facts are meaningful. 

"Newsflash. We won't be contenders for the next 3 years (aka duration of Daley's contract)."

 

 

"A judgment is said to be true when it conforms to the external reality" - Aquinas. Ya'll can ponder on that. 

Edited July 7, 2017 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

 

 

1 hour ago, Buppy said:

What I would say he is at this point in the NHL is nothing. A prospect. Late stage one on the verge of washing out if he doesn't start taking better advantage of his opportunities. 

We trade Sproul to Dallas. Nill is asked in a presser, "How would you describe Sproul's game? What can he bring to this team?". "Well I don't know what to tell you. At this point he's nothing but a prospect"... Yeah, probably not... maybe something along the lines of. "He's a big guy, that skates well and can really shoot the puck. Likes to jump up in the rush and make things happen offensively"... Too much? 

49 minutes ago, kickazz said:

What are you? Donald Trump? Reverting to name calling in a debate lol. 

Name calling? I said your analogy was dumb. You said yourself you were "trolling". Funny you mention Trump, because he's exactly who I think of when I read your debates on here...

Tried adding the Trump "Wrong" meme, but can't upload pictures on here for whatever reason...

This is the last time I'll say it. Sproul IS an offensive defenseman. Whether or not he has put up points thus far has not changed that. Smith was also an offensive defenseman, just not a great one, so he evolved into more of a two-way. Maybe Sproul will as well. Again, the fact that you're still arguing this is absurd...

Love the Daley signing. We really needed more veteran leadership. Sproul probably won't amount to anything. There's no chance Daley takes any minutes away from Sproul or any of the other young guys.

Edited July 7, 2017 by krsmith17

[kickazz 5,459]

21 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Name calling? I said your analogy was dumb. 

Oh my bad. Let me call it something more official. Indirect Ad hominem? Lack of a rebuttal? Unsupported statement of opinion? Lack of a fundamental component of a reasoned debate? Emotionally-charged? Ignoratio elenchi? 

Edited July 7, 2017 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

 

26 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Funny you mention Trump, because he's exactly who I think of when I read your debates on here...

Oh please. he's all about presenting opinion to the masses without presenting facts or figures. I'm the complete opposite. I'm surprised you don't know this. But then again, I'm not sure how much the Canadian news media shows him there.

 I'm anti-opinion and pro-fact. I try not to base my judgement without numbers, figures, and substantial data (sometimes I do, not everyone's perfect. But if you really want to know, just ask Dickie how many times I've asked him for sources). And I certainly don't go off hunches (don't confuse that with optimism) or something that happened in the past and equate them to happening in the future (something the billionaire does on a daily basis). If you think my debating style is like Trump, then you must not know the man. He doesn't even debate. He screams. And he's ALL about his opinion.  

26 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

We trade Sproul to Dallas. Nill is asked in a presser, "How would you describe Sproul's game? What can he bring to this team?". "Well I don't know what to tell you. At this point he's nothing but a prospect"... Yeah, probably not... maybe something along the lines of. "He's a big guy, that skates well and can really shoot the puck. Likes to jump up in the rush and TRIES  to make things happen offensively"... Too much? 

 

fixed 

 

Edited July 7, 2017 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

3 hours ago, Never_Retire_Steve said:

I love CRLs optimism.

His optimism is truth. 

3 hours ago, jaymac17 said:

"Just gotta get in...then anything can happen" -Ken...im somewhat joking but I actually don't really disagree with this. Last year in the west we had eventual Champs down 3-1 in 2nd round.
 

Furthest we got in the playoffs since what? 2009? And we did it right after Lidstrom left. Oh the irony. Would be even more ironic if this crap team that needs a rebuild ends up getting past the second round with Daley 

Edited July 7, 2017 by kickazz

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

7 minutes ago, kickazz said:

His optimism is truth. 

[kickazz 5,459]

30 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

 

Watch the ending

Edited July 7, 2017 by kickazz

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

I'm so conflicted. I want this team to win so bad but I think that Holland has really f***ed up, especially over the last 2 seasons and I don't want us to be the new Edmonton Oilers or Buffalo Sabres where we suck every year for an extended period of time. However, if we do really suck, maybe we make some management changes and we decide to make smarter moves.

Sorry to be Debbie Downer but I really think we're going to be bad this upcoming season and likely to be a lottery team.

[Buppy 1,720]

55 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

We trade Sproul to Dallas. Nill is asked in a presser, "How would you describe Sproul's game? What can he bring to this team?". "Well I don't know what to tell you. At this point he's nothing but a prospect"... Yeah, probably not... maybe something along the lines of. "He's a big guy, that skates well and can really shoot the puck. Likes to jump up in the rush and make things happen offensively"... Too much? ...

Context. There is a world of difference between describing your hopes regarding a player and making a realistic and accurate assessment of a player right now.

I have made it abundantly clear that I have not been talking about his potential, but you keep trying to spin in that way because that's all you have. Enjoy your fantasy I guess. Maybe you'll get lucky and some of it will come true. If not I'm sure you'll be able to think of someone else to blame.

NHL stat guy, putting together the game report, comes to Sproul's name. Is he going to write, "Sproul is an offensive defensemen. Scored a bunch in juniors, and OK in the AHL. Maybe he'll be good in the NHL someday!" Yeah, probably not... maybe something along the lines of, "0".

 

[marcaractac 3,963]

7 hours ago, kickazz said:

 

Oh please. he's all about presenting opinion to the masses without presenting facts or figures. I'm the complete opposite. I'm surprised you don't know this. But then again, I'm not sure how much the Canadian news media shows him there.

 I'm anti-opinion and pro-fact. I try not to base my judgement without numbers, figures, and substantial data (sometimes I do, not everyone's perfect. But if you really want to know, just ask Dickie how many times I've asked him for sources). And I certainly don't go off hunches (don't confuse that with optimism) or something that happened in the past and equate them to happening in the future (something the billionaire does on a daily basis). If you think my debating style is like Trump, then you must not know the man. He doesn't even debate. He screams. And he's ALL about his opinion.  

fixed 

 

If you're anti-opinion, why the hell are you on a discussion forum on the internet? Unless you have some sort of complex where you have to try and convince everyone you're always right. Oh, wait...

[Dabura 12,207]

11 hours ago, Never_Retire_Steve said:

I mean, of course it's a reality but there's a lot of "traditional" things that GMs do today including NTCs but that doesn't mean it's smart.

In this case, I think it's magnified because the majority of our D currently has some sort of NTC which makes trading a *****.

I mean, define "smart." If an NTC is the difference between signing Daley and not signing Daley, I'm ok with giving him the NTC and having a top three of Green, Daley, DeKeyser instead of a top three of Green, DeKeyser, Ouellet/Jensen/Ericsson. It won't make moving him impossible, it'll just make it a bit harder.

I think bigger obstacles to trades are, in our case, questionable contracts -- in terms of money and term -- and the fact that Holland just isn't big on trading roster players.

[krsmith17 7,191]

6 hours ago, Buppy said:

Context. There is a world of difference between describing your hopes regarding a player and making a realistic and accurate assessment of a player right now.

I have made it abundantly clear that I have not been talking about his potential, but you keep trying to spin in that way because that's all you have. Enjoy your fantasy I guess. Maybe you'll get lucky and some of it will come true. If not I'm sure you'll be able to think of someone else to blame.

NHL stat guy, putting together the game report, comes to Sproul's name. Is he going to write, "Sproul is an offensive defensemen. Scored a bunch in juniors, and OK in the AHL. Maybe he'll be good in the NHL someday!" Yeah, probably not... maybe something along the lines of, "0".

I'm not describing my hopes for Sproul, and I'm certainly not trying to spin anything. I'm describing Sproul's style of play. The style of play that has made him successful thus far in his hockey career, and the style of play he will continue to "try" to play at the NHL level. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that style of play ≠ quality of play. You're acting like I'm saying he's Erik Karlsson or something. I'm not even saying he's a good offensive defenseman (yet) in the NHL, just that he IS an offensive style defenseman. It's like saying a goaltender that has played a butterfly style his entire career and finally makes the NHL... You say, well he's not a butterfly goalie in the NHL, because he hasn't proven that he can be good at it yet... Maybe some day he will, but right now he's nothing...

Anyway, I'm done with this ridiculous debate...

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, marcaractac said:

If you're anti-opinion, why the hell are you on a discussion forum on the internet? Unless you have some sort of complex where you have to try and convince everyone you're always right. Oh, wait...

Anti-opinion when it comes to trying to confuse them/push them as facts during a debate. Do I need to "spell that out for you" or do you have the ability to interpret that from previous posts? 

Edited July 7, 2017 by kickazz

[marcaractac 3,963]

3 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Anti-opinion when it comes to trying to confuse them with facts. Do I need to "spell that out for you" or do you have the ability to interpret that from previous posts? 

The obvious interpretation is that you can't handle others having different opinions than you, so you throw out the word "facts" whenever you can so you can keep playing up the facade of always being right. While this may be difficult to grasp, the things people say on here is their thoughts and opinions. This also includes, and I hope you're ready to hear this, the very things YOU say. What a concept.

[kickazz 5,459]

12 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

The obvious interpretation is that you can't handle others having different opinions than you, so you throw out the word "facts" whenever you can so you can keep playing up the facade of always being right. While this may be difficult to grasp, the things people say on here is their thoughts and opinions. This also includes, and I hope you're ready to hear this, the very things YOU say. What a concept.

Not really. If one has an opinion, and can back it you with data, then that's good enough for me. But repeatedly spewing out that a player is an "offensive defenseman" when the data says otherwise is going to get picked apart. Nice try on spinning it though.

Apprently I did have to spell it out. Oh well.

Edited July 7, 2017 by kickazz

[marcaractac 3,963]

2 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Not really. If one has an opinion, and can back it you with data, then that's good enough for me. But repeatedly spewing out that a player is an "offensive defenseman" when the data says otherwise is going to get picked apart. 

Apprently I did have to spell it out. Oh well.

No, you certainly did not have to spell it out. I get what you're saying, I just think it's stupid. 

Offensive defenseman can be a defenseman that puts up points regularly as a defensemen. It can also be used as a description of a style of play for a defenseman. Neither are wrong. One term can be used to describe more than one thing. Welcome to the English language. I'm not gonna waste my time backing this up with data for you. There is a website called google.com where many answers can be found. I feel no need to prove myself right to you. But please, continue to tell me and everyone else how wrong we are because of that. 

[kickazz 5,459]

2 hours ago, marcaractac said:

No, you certainly did not have to spell it out. I get what you're saying, I just think it's stupid. 

Offensive defenseman can be a defenseman that puts up points regularly as a defensemen. It can also be used as a description of a style of play for a defenseman. Neither are wrong. One term can be used to describe more than one thing. Welcome to the English language. I'm not gonna waste my time backing this up with data for you. There is a website called google.com where many answers can be found. I feel no need to prove myself right to you. But please, continue to tell me and everyone else how wrong we are because of that. 

Just checked Google.com says you're incorrect, resorting to passive aggressiveness and annoyed 

Look, say whatever you want, you can think the earth us flat for all I care. Doesn't make it true. And that's my point. If that bothers you, or makes you annoyed that someone like me wants substantial evidence and won't agree until that evidence is provided, then get over it. A message board certainly is a place for people to question others and challenge each other. 

I find it hilarious that the same people who give frank etc. crap for his opinions are getting so defensive about their opinions being challenged, and told that it doesn't mean anything.

Edited July 7, 2017 by kickazz