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Jonas Mahonas

Smith vs. Daley

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11 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

We can revisit this in one year.  Smith will be +20 next year and Daley will be -26.  Smith will have 6 goals, 16 assists.  Daley will have 7 goals, 21 assists.  Smith will be in the conference finals.  Daley will be golfing.

We will. 

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I'm shocked to see so much love for Smith. When he was here it seemed about 90% hated him (if not more). Quite frankly, I was (and still am) one of them. And almost everyone here liked the return we got when we traded him. 

Smith is an absolute liability defensively. Isn't good offensively. And is a give-away machine. I did like the energy he brought. But there was quite a few times where he couldn't even crack our lineup and was a healthy scratch. That could be partly attributed to us not using him properly. But even if that is the case, it most likely wouldn't have changed this time around. 

His current price tag is way too much for a guy who essentially brings nothing to the table other than some energy and intensity. 

Trevor Daley brings much more to the table on both ends of the ice, has leadership qualities, and has a cheaper price tag. Yes he's older than Smith. But being only 33, he's likely to maintain his level of play throughout his 3-year deal. For me this is a no-brainer.

Daley > Smith

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14 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

We can revisit this in one year.  Smith will be +20 next year and Daley will be -26.  Smith will have 6 goals, 16 assists.  Daley will have 7 goals, 21 assists.  Smith will be in the conference finals.  Daley will be golfing.

Your projected comparisons don't mean anything: First because they are purely your guess as to each player's production; but also because Smith will be on a much better (and deeper) team which will greatly impact his +/- and his points. Even with that you still have more goals and assists from Daley at $1M less.

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7 hours ago, TheDetroitRedWings said:

I'm shocked to see so much love for Smith. When he was here it seemed about 90% hated him (if not more). Quite frankly, I was (and still am) one of them. And almost everyone here liked the return we got when we traded him. 

Smith is an absolute liability defensively. Isn't good offensively. And is a give-away machine. I did like the energy he brought. But there was quite a few times where he couldn't even crack our lineup and was a healthy scratch. That could be partly attributed to us not using him properly. But even if that is the case, it most likely wouldn't have changed this time around. 

His current price tag is way too much for a guy who essentially brings nothing to the table other than some energy and intensity. 

Trevor Daley brings much more to the table on both ends of the ice, has leadership qualities, and has a cheaper price tag. Yes he's older than Smith. But being only 33, he's likely to maintain his level of play throughout his 3-year deal. For me this is a no-brainer.

Daley > Smith

The problem with all your statements is that the statistics he puts up do not support them.  YOU do not like Brendan Smith.  That's ok.  You are not obligated to.  But saying things like "he is a give away machine" and "he is a liability" without facts to back them up isn't right.  

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5 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

The problem with all your statements is that the statistics he puts up do not support them.  YOU do not like Brendan Smith.  That's ok.  You are not obligated to.  But saying things like "he is a give away machine" and "he is a liability" without facts to back them up isn't right.  

It's called watching the games, and watching his give away's.

Oh and watching him be a defensive liability.

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42 minutes ago, TheDetroitRedWings said:

It's called watching the games, and watching his give away's.

Oh and watching him be a defensive liability.

So you admit that these are YOUR opinions and they are not supported by statistics?

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43 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

So you admit that these are YOUR opinions and they are not supported by statistics?

Here, I will solve this debate. Smith had 2.26 giveaways per 60min, Daley had .95.

Note though, #1 in the league was norris winner Brett Burns with 4.5.

All the top D seem to be at the top of the list, so level of competition must be a huge factor. The worst thing you can be is a low level D-man with a lot of giveaway as that means 3rd and 4th line players are taking the puck from you.

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7 minutes ago, kliq said:

Here, I will solve this debate. Smith had 2.26 giveaways per 60min, Daley had .95.

Note though, #1 in the league was norris winner Brett Burns with 4.5.

All the top D seem to be at the top of the list, so level of competition must be a huge factor. The worst thing you can be is a low level D-man with a lot of giveaway as that means 3rd and 4th line players are taking the puck from you.

Level of competition definitely has a lot to do with it, but I'd also add style of defensemen. Generally offensive, puck carrying defensemen have more giveaways than defensive, stay at home defensemen regardless of where they are on the depth chart. Which makes sense since the more you have the puck, the more you're going to lose the puck.

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19 minutes ago, kliq said:

Here, I will solve this debate. Smith had 2.26 giveaways per 60min, Daley had .95.

Note though, #1 in the league was norris winner Brett Burns with 4.5.

All the top D seem to be at the top of the list, so level of competition must be a huge factor. The worst thing you can be is a low level D-man with a lot of giveaway as that means 3rd and 4th line players are taking the puck from you.

AKA - This argument isnt going my way, so I will add another factor in to make it go my way.  Smith wasn't shielded here.  He didn't see the hardest minutes last year (DeKeyser), but he didn't see the easiest either.  Maybe he should have seen the hardest minutes.  Green and DeKeyser bot looked terrible.

20 minutes ago, kliq said:

Here, I will solve this debate. Smith had 2.26 giveaways per 60min, Daley had .95.

Note though, #1 in the league was norris winner Brett Burns with 4.5.

All the top D seem to be at the top of the list.

Ha ha ha ha.

Thanks for solving it, Sherlock Holmes.

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

AKA - This argument isnt going my way, so I will add another factor in to make it go my way.  Smith wasn't shielded here.  He didn't see the hardest minutes last year (DeKeyser), but he didn't see the easiest either.  Maybe he should have seen the hardest minutes.  Green and DeKeyser bot looked terrible.

Ha ha ha ha.

Thanks for solving it, Sherlock Holmes.

lol. My point was actually in your favor, for this debate I think I may be <teamjonas>.

There are no stats that really define a player as a "turnover machine", the closest would be giveaways, but like @krsmith17 said, if you are a puck moving d-man you will naturally have more.

You can argue that Smith has more because he is less talented, you could also argue he has more because he drove play like an offensive d-man should. You could also argue he went up against 2nd/3rd line players......point is, there is no way to prove this.

</teamjonas>

I need a shower.

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1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Level of competition definitely has a lot to do with it, but I'd also add style of defensemen. Generally offensive, puck carrying defensemen have more giveaways than defensive, stay at home defensemen regardless of where they are on the depth chart. Which makes sense since the more you have the puck, the more you're going to lose the puck.

But of the offensive puck carrying defenseman, Smith is one of the worst in giveaways. For the amount of "offense" he produces. 

Edited by kickazz

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If you are an offensive defenseman and can't produce more offense than Smith has in his career, you're not an offensive defenseman.  Daley, as much as I dislike the signing, is better in every conceivable way if you take off the fanboy glasses.

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4 hours ago, kliq said:

lol. My point was actually in your favor, for this debate I think I may be <teamjonas>.

There are no stats that really define a player as a "turnover machine", the closest would be giveaways, but like @krsmith17 said, if you are a puck moving d-man you will naturally have more.

You can argue that Smith has more because he is less talented, you could also argue he has more because he drove play like an offensive d-man should. You could also argue he went up against 2nd/3rd line players......point is, there is no way to prove this.

</teamjonas>

I need a shower.

:-)  Yah, it's hard to tell.  I think the truth is somewhere in between.  Smith has more turnovers because he is making more agressive passes either up the ice after he skates with the puck or because he is making passes with more distance between himself and his teammate.  Turnovers are turnovers, though.  I think Smith's  disappointing ice time and useage are a result of his untidy play.  But I also think it is shortsighted, because he does tilt the ice in favor of his team (Corsi For).  I think we gave up on him right at the wrong time.  But only time will tell.

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On 7/2/2017 at 10:23 PM, Jonas Mahonas said:

We can revisit this in one year.  Smith will be +20 next year and Daley will be -26.  Smith will have 6 goals, 16 assists.  Daley will have 7 goals, 21 assists.  Smith will be in the conference finals.  Daley will be golfing.

bahahahjahahaahjaHahahahahJah

We didn’t even have to wait a year!

haha

ahah

ahahah

This is epic.

Edited by kickazz

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Was it really ever a contest? Daley was clearly an upgrade over Smith.

Daley was a competent 2nd pair D with a Cup pedigree. Smith was an error prone 3rd pair D.

Daley's AAV over this year and the next 2 years is just under 3.2 mil. Smith's AAV over that time frame is 4.35 mil.

Smith's return was a 2nd and a 3rd round pick. Holland gave up nothing to acquire Daley.

So basically, Holland upgraded the defense, acquired 2 good picks and saved money and cap space. Where is the debate here?

Edited by Neomaxizoomdweebie

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8 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Was it really ever a contest? Daley was clearly an upgrade over Smith.

Daley was a competent 2nd pair D with a Cup pedigree. Smith was an error prone 3rd pair D.

Daley's AAV over this year and the next 2 years is just under 3.2 mil. Smith's AAV over that time frame is 4.35 mil.

Smith's return was a 2nd and a 3rd round pick. Holland gave up nothing to acquire Daley.

So basically, Holland upgraded the defense, acquired 2 good picks and saved money and cap space. Where is the debate here?

Believe it or not, that was not accepted fact until recently

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1 minute ago, joesuffP said:

Lol remember when Smith batted the puck from the bench late in the game and cost us a crucial game against Montreal where we scraped into the playoffs?

Lol you read through the thread too. Smith may have been the dumbest Red Wing of all time.

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