• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Sign in to follow this  
kliq

2017 Opening Day Roster

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:

There's a difference between having expectations that young players behave in a professional manner and elevating grinders to some high status that they don't deserve.  Bowman expected players to work at both ends of the ice, but he still allowed his skilled players to be creative and wanted to keep the puck as much as possible.  Blashill seems to be content to try to win games 2-1 and get out shot by a wide margin most games, as long as they don't get blown out and look competitive.  Hard work is great, but when a player doesn't have the talent to go with it, he shouldn't be looked at like he's some key contributor.    

But your critique of Blashill's approach has little to take down the idea that dedication to a 'process" (aka good habits of training, practice, self-care) is a good thing in sports (or when trying to achieve anything in life, actually). And pretty much everybody says it whether in the same words or not. Just don't get why that phrase keeps getting mocked.

Or are you interpreting the word process as the system?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He's elevated "process" to something more than it should be.  It's like Marinelli's "pound the rock" BS.He'd rather play guys with no real skill 14 or 15 minutes and maybe win 2-1 than give younger players who still need to grow defensively like AA and Mantha that time and win 4-3.  Beyond that, he thinks every forward needs to be some kind of defensive whiz, and that's not true.

Player A is responsible for 60 goals for, either scoring them, setting them up, or by doing something where he doesn't get a point but his actions lead to the goal (causing a turnover with a forecheck, screening the goalie etc).  He's not very good defensively, and he is responsible for 35 goals against from defensive lapses.

Player B is a defensive ace with limited offensive ability.  He is responsible for 20 goals for and 15 goals against.

Both players average 14 minutes a game.

With player A, your team is +25 goals over the course of the year.  With Player B, +5.  Other than certain situations like last minute of a game where you're leading, or the PK, Player A is the better overall player.  Blashill would rather have a team full of guys like Player B.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

He's elevated "process" to something more than it should be.  It's like Marinelli's "pound the rock" BS.He'd rather play guys with no real skill 14 or 15 minutes and maybe win 2-1 than give younger players who still need to grow defensively like AA and Mantha that time and win 4-3.  Beyond that, he thinks every forward needs to be some kind of defensive whiz, and that's not true.

Player A is responsible for 60 goals for, either scoring them, setting them up, or by doing something where he doesn't get a point but his actions lead to the goal (causing a turnover with a forecheck, screening the goalie etc).  He's not very good defensively, and he is responsible for 35 goals against from defensive lapses.

Player B is a defensive ace with limited offensive ability.  He is responsible for 20 goals for and 15 goals against.

Both players average 14 minutes a game.

With player A, your team is +25 goals over the course of the year.  With Player B, +5.  Other than certain situations like last minute of a game where you're leading, or the PK, Player A is the better overall player.  Blashill would rather have a team full of guys like Player B.

Uhhh Mantha actually played 16 minutes a night this past season... The only grinding type that got more ice time than him was Abdelakder. And Abby only saw on average about 1-2 more shifts per game which translates to about 45 seconds... And Abdelkader played both the PP and PK, whereas Mantha only played the PP, boosting Abby's minutes from special teams

AA averaged 13 and half minutes a game, not too far shy from your 14 minute mark. And only Helm, Sheahan, and Abby got more minutes. Ott, Miller, and Glendening all played less. AA was also used on the PP, and prior mentioned players all played the PK. Isn't that how you'd play them?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, BinMucker94 said:

Gross

That seems excessive. A little more tact is preferred. How rude.

However, you are very much correct. It will certainly be the worst defensive lineup this team has presented in 2 decades at the least. You might as well waive the last pairing and put Hicketts - random AHL complimentary defender there. Things are grim. And we'll see it live soon enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Jacksoni said:

That seems excessive. A little more tact is preferred. How rude.

However, you are very much correct. It will certainly be the worst defensive lineup this team has presented in 2 decades at the least. You might as well waive the last pairing and put Hicketts - random AHL complimentary defender there. Things are grim. And we'll see it live soon enough.

Yea that last pairing is basically two pylons with hockey sticks attached. At least Hicketts can get up and down the ice. If I was running things I'd go with

Daley-Green

DK-Jensen

XO-Sproul/McIlrath/Russo 

Its not much better tho.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, BinMucker94 said:

Yea that last pairing is basically two pylons with hockey sticks attached. At least Hicketts can get up and down the ice. If I was running things I'd go with

Daley-Green

DK-Jensen

XO-Sproul

/McIlrath/Russo 

Its not much better tho.

Exactly what I do like to see as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Jacksoni said:

That seems excessive. A little more tact is preferred. How rude.

However, you are very much correct. It will certainly be the worst defensive lineup this team has presented in 2 decades at the least. You might as well waive the last pairing and put Hicketts - random AHL complimentary defender there. Things are grim. And we'll see it live soon enough.

Though it's not a very good group, it should be slightly better than last year. Compared to the beginning of last year, we have Jensen instead of Marchenko and added Daley.

And maybe Ericsson's wrist surgery gets him back to playing a bit better. he was cleary bother by some issue this past year.

As for lineups with Sproul - I've seen in recent articles on our cap situation that he's questionable to be ready for the beginning of the year

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/10/2017 at 0:31 PM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Uhhh Mantha actually played 16 minutes a night this past season... The only grinding type that got more ice time than him was Abdelakder. And Abby only saw on average about 1-2 more shifts per game which translates to about 45 seconds... And Abdelkader played both the PP and PK, whereas Mantha only played the PP, boosting Abby's minutes from special teams

AA averaged 13 and half minutes a game, not too far shy from your 14 minute mark. And only Helm, Sheahan, and Abby got more minutes. Ott, Miller, and Glendening all played less. AA was also used on the PP, and prior mentioned players all played the PK. Isn't that how you'd play them?

 

One, I wasn't talking about specific players necessarily.  Two, 14 minutes was just a number I threw out.  Three, a forward who doesn't score a single goal until the very last game of the year averaging anywhere close to 14 minutes a night, and Sheahan was at 13:58, and getting a second of PP time means your coach has gone full retard.  By then end of the year he should have been a regular healthy scratch, if not waived, regardless of the "good things" he did.  A forward's primary job is to score.  If you're not scoring much you damn well be hitting everything that moves, especially if you're a relatively big guy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

One, I wasn't talking about specific players necessarily.  Two, 14 minutes was just a number I threw out.  Three, a forward who doesn't score a single goal until the very last game of the year averaging anywhere close to 14 minutes a night, and Sheahan was at 13:58, and getting a second of PP time means your coach has gone full retard.  By then end of the year he should have been a regular healthy scratch, if not waived, regardless of the "good things" he did.  A forward's primary job is to score.  If you're not scoring much you damn well be hitting everything that moves, especially if you're a relatively big guy.

That's what this organization is about though, things players "did." Holland holds on to these players because they had a good season or two asnd that player just might show up again if he keeps them and they keep playing, re. playoff Franzen, 2008 Franzen, player X coming off LTIR is our deadline acquisition . This organization has lost all touch with reality, and that is squarely on Holland's shoulders. I honesty don't know how he's had a job the last two seasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

That's what this organization is about though, things players "did." Holland holds on to these players because they had a good season or two asnd that player just might show up again if he keeps them and they keep playing, re. playoff Franzen, 2008 Franzen, player X coming off LTIR is our deadline acquisition . This organization has lost all touch with reality, and that is squarely on Holland's shoulders. I honesty don't know how he's had a job the last two seasons.

I agree to a certain extent. I think Holland is sometimes loyal to a fault, especially when it comes to mediocre bottom six forwards / bottom four defensemen. And he certainly looks after the Michigan boys. I like Abby, but there's no way he should have gotten the contract he did. Slightly overpaid in salary, and massively overpaid in term. Glendening is probably the worst contract on the team. Massively overpaid in both salary and term. DeKeyser is a solid middle six defenseman, but again, probably a little overpaid. I get that you sometimes have overpay to keep players, but these were three players that played their entire careers in Michigan, from college to Grand Rapids to Detroit, and likely would have taken a bit of a discount to continue playing in their home state. 

But moreso than the loyalty, my frustration with the organization is their desire for every single player to be a defensive stalwart, and value hard work over high skill. They want to turn every pure goal scorer into a defensive specialist, because defense wins championships... just ask Pittsburgh. Sure, we need players to be defensively responsible, but not every player needs to be a Selke candidate. I'd rather have a 30+ goal, 60+ point producer that is decent defensively, than a 15 goal, 30 point producer that is an ace defensively. Management seems to prefer the latter though, and have the former improve his defense at the expense of his offense...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

I agree to a certain extent. I think Holland is sometimes loyal to a fault, especially when it comes to mediocre bottom six forwards / bottom four defensemen. And he certainly looks after the Michigan boys. I like Abby, but there's no way he should have gotten the contract he did. Slightly overpaid in salary, and massively overpaid in term. Glendening is probably the worst contract on the team. Massively overpaid in both salary and term. DeKeyser is a solid middle six defenseman, but again, probably a little overpaid. I get that you sometimes have overpay to keep players, but these were three players that played their entire careers in Michigan, from college to Grand Rapids to Detroit, and likely would have taken a bit of a discount to continue playing in their home state. 

But moreso than the loyalty, my frustration with the organization is their desire for every single player to be a defensive stalwart, and value hard work over high skill. They want to turn every pure goal scorer into a defensive specialist, because defense wins championships... just ask Pittsburgh. Sure, we need players to be defensively responsible, but not every player needs to be a Selke candidate. I'd rather have a 30+ goal, 60+ point producer that is decent defensively, than a 15 goal, 30 point producer that is an ace defensively. Management seems to prefer the latter though, and have the former improve his defense at the expense of his offense...

EXACTLY

tenor.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I agree to a certain extent. I think Holland is sometimes loyal to a fault, especially when it comes to mediocre bottom six forwards / bottom four defensemen. And he certainly looks after the Michigan boys. I like Abby, but there's no way he should have gotten the contract he did. Slightly overpaid in salary, and massively overpaid in term. Glendening is probably the worst contract on the team. Massively overpaid in both salary and term. DeKeyser is a solid middle six defenseman, but again, probably a little overpaid. I get that you sometimes have overpay to keep players, but these were three players that played their entire careers in Michigan, from college to Grand Rapids to Detroit, and likely would have taken a bit of a discount to continue playing in their home state. 

But moreso than the loyalty, my frustration with the organization is their desire for every single player to be a defensive stalwart, and value hard work over high skill. They want to turn every pure goal scorer into a defensive specialist, because defense wins championships... just ask Pittsburgh. Sure, we need players to be defensively responsible, but not every player needs to be a Selke candidate. I'd rather have a 30+ goal, 60+ point producer that is decent defensively, than a 15 goal, 30 point producer that is an ace defensively. Management seems to prefer the latter though, and have the former improve his defense at the expense of his offense...

Agreed, very good points. I think Holland has always been this way, but when there was no salary cap and it was high end players, it was considered genius

I think all of us talking logically can agree that Hollands strengths as a GM are the ability to establish a great culture within the organization, the ability to retain players and for the most part acquire the UFA's he wants. I know some like to say we can't acquire UFA's because of Suter and Niskanen, but when you look at the last 20 years he almost always get the players he wants. 

Loyalty to a fault I can agree with, Lefty's over the top rants about Loyalty being such a bad thing and the motive for everything he does, I call BS on (ie. Tatar was re-signed only because of "loyalty").

When we were an elite team, and the players he kept were elite, everybody loved him. Now that we haven't been able to acquire an elite player in a very long time, he is doing the same thing, but it's with mediocre/good players and he appears to be clueless in understanding the salary cap ramifications. But the bigger problem is he appears to be scared to take ANY risks, hence his over reliance on vets.

I dont think this team is screwed like some believe, and luckily to this point we haven't lost anyone of note because of these contracts (sorry, but I dont count Ferrero, Frk, Nesty, and Pulk as players of note) and if Holland could make just a few trades and dump just a few contracts I think we would be just fine. Trade away E, Howard, and Nielsen and our cap situation changes considerably. That would be about 15mil not even counting Green's 6mil coming off in the off season. The problem is I don't think he see's it as a problem. I know people will say you can't trade those players, but I think you can trade at least some of them. NOBODY though Shanny could trade a healthy Clarkson, and he did. Just need to be creative. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Holland used to move on if he needed to.  He let Lapointe walk when he got a big offer from Boston.  He traded for Hasek even though we had Osgood, and Osgood and Holland are really close.  Now, if he had a chance to get an elite level player at the cost of someone on the roster who was "home grown" and he was close to, I don't think he'd pull the trigger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I agree to a certain extent. I think Holland is sometimes loyal to a fault, especially when it comes to mediocre bottom six forwards / bottom four defensemen. And he certainly looks after the Michigan boys. I like Abby, but there's no way he should have gotten the contract he did. Slightly overpaid in salary, and massively overpaid in term. Glendening is probably the worst contract on the team. Massively overpaid in both salary and term. DeKeyser is a solid middle six defenseman, but again, probably a little overpaid. I get that you sometimes have overpay to keep players, but these were three players that played their entire careers in Michigan, from college to Grand Rapids to Detroit, and likely would have taken a bit of a discount to continue playing in their home state. 

But moreso than the loyalty, my frustration with the organization is their desire for every single player to be a defensive stalwart, and value hard work over high skill. They want to turn every pure goal scorer into a defensive specialist, because defense wins championships... just ask Pittsburgh. Sure, we need players to be defensively responsible, but not every player needs to be a Selke candidate. I'd rather have a 30+ goal, 60+ point producer that is decent defensively, than a 15 goal, 30 point producer that is an ace defensively. Management seems to prefer the latter though, and have the former improve his defense at the expense of his offense...

I very much doubt the Michigan thing being true. Just a coincidence. Helm was similarly well treated.

I think it's obvious that Abby is seen as part of the leadership core. He can play in all situations, and anywhere in the lineup. And he's not even in the top 120 forwards in cap hit. He's paid like a solid secondary player, which is what he had been. Overpaid if he ends up playing 4th line scoring 20 points, sure, but not if he's scoring 40. The term I think is meaningless since I think he's a career Wing anyway. Dekeyser is paid like a low-end top-pair/good 2nd pair. Certainly didn't perform like one this last year, but I'd argue that he did over the previous three years. Glendening, yeah, might be the worst. But it's a fairly low-end contract, and similar to deals given to similar players in the past.

Your second paragraph is just a laughable exaggeration. None of Nyquist, Tatar, Larkin, or Mantha are great defenseively, or expected to be, but were all in our top 7 forwards in ice time. Zetterberg and Nielsen are good defensively, but also two of our best scorers. The other guy in the top 7 was Abby, and he was also one of our top scorers the previous two seasons. 

Even if defense was the sole reason AA's ice time was so low, it'd still be a gross exaggeration. But I don't believe that's the case. Most of the players ahead of him in ice time are, have been, or could be expected to be, good offensively as well. I'm sure that, in a way, the fact that AA (and Vanek) produced well with limited ice time was a factor in keeping the ice time limited. In the "those guys are doing well, don't need to worry about them, let's try to get these other guys going" sense. (Yeah, didn't work, and some criticism is warranted for sticking to that too stubbornly, but would have looked brilliant had Abby and Sheahan had career years in the good sense rather than the bad.) Of course AA would get more time if he was better defensively...as a more versatile and well rounded player should...but I don't think you can conclude that he would get more if he were better defensively and proportionately worse offensively, nor even if it did would your depiction of our philosophy be anywhere close to accurate.

9 hours ago, kliq said:

... he appears to be clueless in understanding the salary cap ramifications. But the bigger problem is he appears to be scared to take ANY risks, hence his over reliance on vets.

I dont think this team is screwed like some believe, and luckily to this point we haven't lost anyone of note because of these contracts (sorry, but I dont count Ferrero, Frk, Nesty, and Pulk as players of note) and if Holland could make just a few trades and dump just a few contracts I think we would be just fine. Trade away E, Howard, and Nielsen and our cap situation changes considerably. That would be about 15mil not even counting Green's 6mil coming off in the off season. The problem is I don't think he see's it as a problem. I know people will say you can't trade those players, but I think you can trade at least some of them. NOBODY though Shanny could trade a healthy Clarkson, and he did. Just need to be creative. 

People make way too big a deal of the cap. As you say we haven't lost anyone of note, and in fact have been able to add UFAs every year. We were in a good spot to got after Suter/Parise, Niskanen, Stamkos had he gone to free agency...wouldn't be at all surprised if we find a way to take a run at Tavares if he's available (though I hope not, but that's another discussion). Holland getting rid of Datsyuk's hit and his ability to leverage LTIR is nothing if not creative. And while I'm sure it would make a lot of people feel better if we were closer to the floor rather than fighting the ceiling, cap space isn't going to make the team better. Free agents just aren't that good, and all the money in the world isn't going to make better players available.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Take late round picks in return and those guys are very tradeable. But Holland over values them and still believes that the 8 year ago versions of them are bound to show up, they just will, trust him.

Why would anyone want a guy like Helm, Ericsson, Glendening, etc. at their current cap hits?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Why would anyone want a guy like Helm, Ericsson, Glendening, etc. at their current cap hits?  

E - No way

Helm - I believe so. His contract on this team is bad, but in a bubble on a team with a lot of room and a need for a player like him, I think he is definitely tradable (not going to get much back, but that wasnt the question)

Glendening - I think so if we retain some salary. I could see TO taking him if we say retained 400K, I think him at 1.4 is better then Moore at 1. You know how Babs feels about him. Players like him may be mocked around here, but coaches like Babs love these guys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Buppy said:

People make way too big a deal of the cap. As you say we haven't lost anyone of note, and in fact have been able to add UFAs every year. We were in a good spot to got after Suter/Parise, Niskanen, Stamkos had he gone to free agency...wouldn't be at all surprised if we find a way to take a run at Tavares if he's available (though I hope not, but that's another discussion). Holland getting rid of Datsyuk's hit and his ability to leverage LTIR is nothing if not creative. And while I'm sure it would make a lot of people feel better if we were closer to the floor rather than fighting the ceiling, cap space isn't going to make the team better. Free agents just aren't that good, and all the money in the world isn't going to make better players available.

In fairness I cant dispute any of this, when it comes to the cap the guy walks the line and we really haven't lost anyone of note, or not been able to sign someone we wanted because of it. This is why I am against buying out E, doing that today would help nothing for this year, and just adds on time with a cap hit. Rather waste it now.

Edited by kliq

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Why would anyone want a guy like Helm, Ericsson, Glendening, etc. at their current cap hits?  

Teams probably wouldn't want those players at their current cap hits, which is why we'd have to retain salary. Again, no player is untradeable. If Holland really wanted to (he doesn't) he could trade Ericsson to a team like New Jersey or Buffalo. Ericsson ($1.5M retained) and a mid round pick (3rd or 4th) for a late round pick (6th or 7th) would likely get a deal done. 

9 hours ago, kliq said:

E - No way

Helm - I believe so. His contract on this team is bad, but in a bubble on a team with a lot of room and a need for a player like him, I think he is definitely tradable (not going to get much back, but that wasnt the question)

Glendening - I think so if we retain some salary. I could see TO taking him if we say retained 400K, I think him at 1.4 is better then Moore at 1. You know how Babs feels about him. Players like him may be mocked around here, but coaches like Babs love these guys.

I agree. But as for the bolded, the same can be said for trading Ericsson as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this