• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

kickazz

Ken Holland "We protected our best goaltender"

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Couple of thoughts. 

Mrazek has ZERO VALUE around the league if VGK didn't select him and flip him for assets to a team needing a G. The reports of him being uncoachable after not starting the outdoor game v. Toronto ruined his value. He will get traded for picks and maybe a prospect. 

About bounce back seasons. The best thing that can happen is that 52 & 55 BOUNCE to LTIR next to 93. Give more kids a chance and use the recoverable cap space to wisely add a D and some R shooting forwards. 

Oh and it's ok not to sign TT. He is a tiny little fella who is invisible in the playoffs when the ice gets smaller. He has trade value. 

And lastly can we PLEASE say good riddens to Holland after this year? PLEASE young Ilitch save us! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Buppy said:

Sproul's last year in junior and 1st in GR were the only years he has scored much more than Ouellet. Their last year in GR, they scored at the same rate. Ouellet's 5v5 scoring this year was slightly better than Sproul's. He also had more shots and shot attempts. The team was far better in both possession and goals for with Ouellet (in addition to being better defensively). And Ouellet wasn't nearly as sheltered as Sproul was.

The situation Sproul was in he probably should have had the best numbers on the team, but instead was the worst or near so in pretty much everything. And that after three years in GR where he scored at the same rate as Ericsson, and didn't show any improvement from his first year to his last. Calling him an "offensive defensemen" is like calling our 2022 1st-round pick "Keith". Might be true someday (probably not), but it for sure wasn't true this year.

Based on this year, Sproul couldn't even lift Ouellet's jock strap using a crane made out of Lidstrom's jock straps, which he couldn't even drive anyway.

This makes no sense. Sproul has been an offensive defenseman his entire career. Just because he hasn't put up the numbers yet in his 28 NHL games, doesn't negate that. I think Sproul has the potential to be a 30+ point defenseman. Maybe he gets there, maybe he doesn't. But he needs to be given the opportunity. He's not going to get that opportunity from the bench. Maybe Ouellet was slightly better than Sproul last year, but Sproul was also in and out of the lineup more than anyone. If given the opportunity, I think he would run with it. Hopefully the torn ACL doesn't effect his game too much, and he can get in some consistent games. Sproul's upside far outweighs Ouellet's in my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

Personally I'm not really convinced that Howard is the 'better' of the two.

IMHO both will look bad when you take into consideration the 5 guys that play in front of them.

Howard did last year with the same 5 in front of him as Mrazek. Howard is a great goaltender, just can't stay healthy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/3/2017 at 6:32 PM, kickazz said:

Ken Holland gives his reason as to why he didn't protect Mrazek. Basically saying Jimmy is the better and more consistent goaltender. Still thinks Mrazek has a chance to bounce back this coming year. Wants both Jimmy and Mrazek to succeed this year.

So basically, he doubled down on his goal tending tandem.  Excellent.  Maybe Mrazek just needed a swift kick in the pants.  Hopefully this plays out well.  If not, lets at least hope that Mrazek raises his trade value.

Said it before, will say it again, and going to say it again right now.  Goaltending is the least of our issues even with this little DRAMA playing out.

Edited by e_prime

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, e_prime said:

So basically, he doubled down on his goal tending tandem.  Excellent.  Maybe Mrazek just needed a swift kick in the pants.  Hopefully this plays out well.  If not, lets at least hope that Mrazek raises his trade value.

Said it before, will say it again, and going to say it again right now.  Goaltending is the least of our issues even with this little DRAMA playing out.

He also made a point that Jimmy is not "old". He's not 37 or 38, still has a lot of good years left in him. 

I have to agree, some of Osgoods best goaltending came when he was Mid 30s

Last year Jimmy played lights out in some games as a 32 year old

Edited by kickazz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

This makes no sense. Sproul has been an offensive defenseman his entire career. Just because he hasn't put up the numbers yet in his 28 NHL games, doesn't negate that. I think Sproul has the potential to be a 30+ point defenseman. Maybe he gets there, maybe he doesn't. But he needs to be given the opportunity. He's not going to get that opportunity from the bench. Maybe Ouellet was slightly better than Sproul last year, but Sproul was also in and out of the lineup more than anyone. If given the opportunity, I think he would run with it. Hopefully the torn ACL doesn't effect his game too much, and he can get in some consistent games. Sproul's upside far outweighs Ouellet's in my opinion.

He has been an offensive defenseman in the OHL and the AHL (sort of). That doesn't make him anything in the NHL. Stylistically he might be offensive, but if he's not actually scoring or adding any kind of offense (or actually hurting the offense when he's on the ice) then he isn't really an offensive defensemen. 

It's fine to be optimistic about Sproul's potential, just don't confuse that with what he actually does on the ice. Assuming the team hasn't already given up on him, he will get an opportunity. Won't likely be every game, nor should it be considering how bad he was. If he sucks again, he probably won't get many chances; nor should he. You should be good with that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Buppy said:

He has been an offensive defenseman in the OHL and the AHL (sort of). That doesn't make him anything in the NHL. Stylistically he might be offensive, but if he's not actually scoring or adding any kind of offense (or actually hurting the offense when he's on the ice) then he isn't really an offensive defensemen. 

It's fine to be optimistic about Sproul's potential, just don't confuse that with what he actually does on the ice. Assuming the team hasn't already given up on him, he will get an opportunity. Won't likely be every game, nor should it be considering how bad he was. If he sucks again, he probably won't get many chances; nor should he. You should be good with that. 

How well (or poorly) a player plays doesn't determine his style of play. There are offensive defensemen, defensive defensemen, and two-way defensemen. Sproul IS an offensive defensemen. Whether he ever hacks it as an NHLer or not doesn't change that. I'm okay with him not getting every game, the only thing I ask is he's given a fair shot. Don't bench him for one giveaway (he's going to make mistakes), and don't scratch him for weeks at a time for one off game (especially when other guys don't get the same treatment). If he's given a fair crack at it, and he doesn't pan out, whatever, let him walk at the end of the season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They don't bench anyone for "one giveaway". They tend to bench players over repeated gaffs. They gave him 27 games last year before his injury. He's already off to a good start in terms of opportunity.

I'm already starting to see it. This whole Daley signing is going to be a scapegoat for Sproul. Even though it literally has nothing to do with Sproul or the opportunity he's given overall.

Edited by kickazz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

How well (or poorly) a player plays doesn't determine his style of play. There are offensive defensemen, defensive defensemen, and two-way defensemen. Sproul IS an offensive defensemen. 

That is such a poor way if debating. It makes no sense at all dude. That's like saying "I'm superman" but then not being able to lift even half my body weight. Wtf? Does that sill make me superman?? Just because I gave myself that title?? 

If, as Buppy pointed out, Sproul really isn't producing as an offensive defenseman, or playing like one. Then he's obviously failing to fullfil that title...

Edited by kickazz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, kickazz said:

That is such a poor way if debating. It makes no sense at all dude. That's like saying "I'm superman" but then not being able to lift even half my body weight. Wtf? Does that sill make me superman?? Just because I gave myself that title?? 

Awesome analogy dude... Problem is, Sproul has never given himself the title of offensive defenseman, let alone... superman... You know how he got labeled as an offensive defenseman? By playing like an offensive defenseman, you know, jumping into the rush, providing offense, and putting up points. He hasn't been able to do that quite as much as we'd like in his first 28 NHL games, therefore he is no longer an offensive defenseman... Got it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Awesome analogy dude... Problem is, Sproul has never given himself the title of offensive defenseman, let alone... superman... You know how he got labeled as an offensive defenseman? By playing like an offensive defenseman, you know, jumping into the rush, providing offense, and putting up points. He hasn't been able to do that quite as much as we'd like in his first 28 NHL games, therefore he is no longer an offensive defenseman... Got it...

It was a simple analogy but still an anaology nonetheless and makes the point. And it doesn't matter WHO gives the title; so not sure what the purpose of nitpicking that out is lol. 

Lol I'm going to keep going with the analogy because it's fun. Say that someone is considered superman/superhuman  when they were younger because when they were a kid and teen they were stronger than other kids their age. But say when the kids got older, the other kids in the age group caught up, and surpass the supposed superman kid. Is that kid still considered superman? Or does it mean he was once given a title which turned out to NO LONGER BE TRUE when he got older and hit some real situations?

Yeah. Just because a player was an Offensive defenseman statistically in some  junior and minor league doesn't mean he is one in the major league. The title doesn't just stick with you if you have nothing to show for it. 

Here's a more legit analogy related to hockey. When Zetterberg came into the league he was considered a goal scorer by 2008. Scored, 31, 33, 39, 43 goals (5th highest in the league!). But as time went on, his goal scoring dropped to 20s range and his assists started to pick up. Now tell me, is Zetterberg, who was once considered a goal scorer still considered one? No. He isn't. Nowadays you hear him considered as a "playmaker", a "set up guy". Why? Because statistically he no longer is a goal scorer. In fact, statistically he's actually a playmaker.

Same thing for Nyquist and Tatar. One is starting to be considered a goal scorer while the other is starting to be considered a playmaker. I'll let you guess who is who. 

Titles don't mean a thing unless there's something to show for it. And it certainly isn't a permanent thing. 

Edited by kickazz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 It's time for the Ilitch family to fire Kenny Holland, the GM of the Dead Red Wings!!!  Kenny Holland gave away all those sweetheart contracts to Third Rate players that cannot produce... The Dead Red Wings have no offense no defense no power play and can't play 60 Minutes of quality hockey and constantly giveaways all over the ice... Kenny Holland has screwed the Dead Red Wings for the next 3 to 5 years... The new production line should be Larkin, Tyler Bertuzzi and Matha... The Griffin's play a better quality hockey than the Dead Red Wings... Fire Kenny Holland!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, kickazz said:

It was a simple analogy but still an anaology nonetheless and makes the point. And it doesn't matter WHO gives the title; so not sure what the purpose of nitpicking that out is lol. 

Lol I'm going to keep going with the analogy because it's fun. Say that someone is considered superman/superhuman  when they were younger because when they were a kid and teen they were stronger than other kids their age. But say when the kids got older, the other kids in the age group caught up, and surpass the supposed superman kid. Is that kid still considered superman? Or does it mean he was once given a title which turned out to NO LONGER BE TRUE when he got older and hit some real situations?

Yeah. Just because a player was an Offensive defenseman statistically in some  junior and minor league doesn't mean he is one in the major league. The title doesn't just stick with you if you have nothing to show for it. 

Here's a more legit analogy related to hockey. When Zetterberg came into the league he was considered a goal scorer by 2008. Scored, 33, 39, 43 goals. But as time went on, his goal scoring dropped to 20s range and his assists started to pick up. Now tell me, is Zetterberg, who was once considered a goal scorer still considered one? No. He isn't. Nowadays you head him considered as a "playmaker", a "set up guy"

Re: "...first 28 NHL games, therefore he is no longer an offensive defenseman... Got it..."

Zetterberg evolved into more of a two-way forward. He didn't just all of a sudden forget how to score. He developed his game to be more of a two-way forward.

So if Sproul isn't an offensive defenseman, what is he?

http://forecaster.thehockeynews.com/player/9068

Assets: Excels on offense, but also has very good size and some physicality to his game. Can quarterback a power play and put up very good scoring numbers.

Career Potential: Big offensive defenseman with a little upside.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/ryan_sproul/

Talent Analysis: Sproul boasts tremendous offensive instincts, can quarterback a power play, and no longer is knocked for his skating ability or defensive skills. He has shown vast improvement since being drafted. His defensive game is still developing and he continues to refine the secondary areas of his game.

Future: Sproul continued to hone his overall game in the AHL in 2015-16, spending his third pro season with the Grand Rapids Griffins. A durable defenseman with some offensive ability and prototypical size, he is still working to become more consistent in his positional game. Long-term, Sproul is an intriguing prospect with top-four NHL potential.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't get the semantics here...the guy is an offensive defenseman at this point....period.  The better analogy is to look at highly skilled forwards (offensive guys) who are being seasoned in the AHL.  Until a top 6 spot opens up for them, it doesn't necessarily make sense to call them up to fill in on the 3rd or 4th line as that would not be their role.  You plug them in to the NHL before they are ready, they may produce very little offense....that doesn't mean they are not offensive players.

Doesn't mean he'll always be considered an offensive defenseman, but if he's not, it would mean a shift in his game.  28 games at the NHL level being used to assess someone is absurd.  However, for the sake of looking at stats, which are somewhat meaningless in this small sample size, he had the 3rd highest PPG stat amongst defensemen on the Wings last season (very, very, very close to a tie at #2).

Edited by toby91_ca

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Re: "...first 28 NHL games, therefore he is no longer an offensive defenseman... Got it..."

Zetterberg evolved into more of a two-way forward. He didn't just all of a sudden forget how to score. He developed his game to be more of a two-way forward.

So if Sproul isn't an offensive defenseman, what is he?

http://forecaster.thehockeynews.com/player/9068

Assets: Excels on offense, but also has very good size and some physicality to his game. Can quarterback a power play and put up very good scoring numbers.

Career Potential: Big offensive defenseman with a little upside.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/ryan_sproul/

Talent Analysis: Sproul boasts tremendous offensive instincts, can quarterback a power play, and no longer is knocked for his skating ability or defensive skills. He has shown vast improvement since being drafted. His defensive game is still developing and he continues to refine the secondary areas of his game.

Future: Sproul continued to hone his overall game in the AHL in 2015-16, spending his third pro season with the Grand Rapids Griffins. A durable defenseman with some offensive ability and prototypical size, he is still working to become more consistent in his positional game. Long-term, Sproul is an intriguing prospect with top-four NHL potential.

First, Zetterberg was a two-way forward since his junior career. He started killing penlaties for the Red Wings since his rookie season. In fact he was considered for Selke candidacy well before Datsyuk was in his career (finished 9th in the 2005-06 season, then 7th in 06-07 season, as a comparison Datsyuk didnt even finish top 10 until he actually won it in the 08 season). 

Second, you're just adding to my point. Considered an offensive defenseman in his juniors and minors career. Whether he lives up to it in the NHL is another story.

This is reminding me a lot about Smith. Supposedly an offensive defenseman who can't even put up 20 points and he's played how many NHL games now..? Just checked: 309 NHL games holy s***

Edited by kickazz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, toby91_ca said:

I don't get the semantics here...the guy is an offensive defenseman at this point....period.  The better analogy is to look at highly skilled forwards (offensive guys) who are being seasoned in the AHL.  Until a top 6 spot opens up for them, it doesn't necessarily make sense to call them up to fill in on the 3rd or 4th line as that would not be their role.  You plug them in to the NHL before they are ready, they may produce very little offense....that doesn't mean they are not offensive players.

Doesn't mean he'll always be considered an offensive defenseman, but if he's not, it would mean a shift in his game.  28 games at the NHL level being used to assess someone is absurd.  However, for the sake of looking at stats, which are somewhat meaningless in this small sample size, he have the 3rd highest PPG stat amongst defensemen on the Wings last season (very, very, very close to a tied at #2).

This.

Quite possibly the dumbest conversation I've ever been a part of on here... But you're right kickazz. Hell, you're never wrong. Sproul isn't an offensive defenseman. Not sure what he is, but definitely not an offensive defenseman...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

How well (or poorly) a player plays doesn't determine his style of play. There are offensive defensemen, defensive defensemen, and two-way defensemen. Sproul IS an offensive defensemen. Whether he ever hacks it as an NHLer or not doesn't change that. I'm okay with him not getting every game, the only thing I ask is he's given a fair shot. Don't bench him for one giveaway (he's going to make mistakes), and don't scratch him for weeks at a time for one off game (especially when other guys don't get the same treatment). If he's given a fair crack at it, and he doesn't pan out, whatever, let him walk at the end of the season.

I'm guessing that if Sproul struggles again then whatever shot he's given won't be fair in your mind. The new Jurco.

1 hour ago, toby91_ca said:

I don't get the semantics here...the guy is an offensive defenseman at this point....period.  The better analogy is to look at highly skilled forwards (offensive guys) who are being seasoned in the AHL.  Until a top 6 spot opens up for them, it doesn't necessarily make sense to call them up to fill in on the 3rd or 4th line as that would not be their role.  You plug them in to the NHL before they are ready, they may produce very little offense....that doesn't mean they are not offensive players.

Doesn't mean he'll always be considered an offensive defenseman, but if he's not, it would mean a shift in his game.  28 games at the NHL level being used to assess someone is absurd.  However, for the sake of looking at stats, which are somewhat meaningless in this small sample size, he had the 3rd highest PPG stat amongst defensemen on the Wings last season (very, very, very close to a tie at #2).

The semantics aren't the point. I'm not trying to quibble about labels, I'm pointing out that the labels don't actually mean anything. Being labeled an offensive defenseman doesn't mean he's providing offense. Labels and potential should not form the foundation for an assessment of how a player is playing, or for comparing players at present, or making an argument for giving a player more time. That is what is absurd.

Like I said before, it's fine to be optimistic about his potential, and no one is arguing against giving him another shot. Just that we shouldn't be saying Sproul was as good as Ouellet because we think someday he'll be better. Or that we prefer the "offensive" guy over the "defensive" guy, and criticizing the coach for doing the opposite, when in fact the defensive guy is also providing more offense. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now