Mrazek "Maturing, could bounce back like Howard"

[DickieDunn 2,571]

I remember Howard subtly throwing the D under the bus after a bad game a few times, suggesting that maybe they would have won with a few more cleared picks or blocked shots. It wasn't ever anything real overt though

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[chaps80 1,591]

lol "maturing," at 25 years old, like you just turn a switch.
And I don't really remember Howard ever being immature.

No but I remember him being sheltered. First full NHL season wasn't until he was 25, maybe that helped? He was out of AHL options and Babcock said it's time to deliver.


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[chaps80 1,591]

This board flip flops over favouring goaltenders so much. Awhile back it was "Howard sucks, can't stop a beach ball, trade him!" And it got even worse when he got lit up in the first two games of the 2016 playoffs and replaced by Mrazek. Holland tried to trade him, no one was interested, so he was still on the team by default pretty much. Then Mrazek had a bad year and Howard played mostly well in the games he made it into, and now "Mrazek sucks, he's a bust, trade him, Howard is the better goalie", etc. Howard is one good injury away from LTIRetirement, but let's keep him as our only viable option.


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[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

14 hours ago, kliq said:

Jimmy became a full time starting goaltender at 25, that is not that late for a goalie.

Can you provide something to back these claims up?  Based on your "whiny" comment, I am prompted to believe this is an emotional based post opposed to a factual post.

I do remember him running out of options so it was "s*** or get off the pot" for him essentially, which he did finally.

[kliq 3,755]

2 hours ago, Hockeymom1960 said:

I do remember him running out of options so it was "s*** or get off the pot" for him essentially, which he did finally.

Ya that did happen, I remember that as well. But for a goalie that is quite conman as they typically take a bit longer to develop

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

16 hours ago, chaps80 said:

This board flip flops over favouring goaltenders so much. Awhile back it was "Howard sucks, can't stop a beach ball, trade him!" And it got even worse when he got lit up in the first two games of the 2016 playoffs and replaced by Mrazek. Holland tried to trade him, no one was interested, so he was still on the team by default pretty much. Then Mrazek had a bad year and Howard played mostly well in the games he made it into, and now "Mrazek sucks, he's a bust, trade him, Howard is the better goalie", etc. Howard is one good injury away from LTIRetirement, but let's keep him as our only viable option.


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Not really.

This board has been a Mrazek circle-jerk since 2012, and only now are posters starting to warm up to the idea that he isn't the savior. Most still have faith that he can be. I don't think anyone here, besides me, wants to lean heavy on Howard.

It sounds to me like you've been reading too much of my constant Howard drum-beating, and not enough of the rest of the board.

[TheXym 2,606]

7 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Not really.

This board has been a Mrazek circle-jerk since 2012, and only now are posters starting to warm up to the idea that he isn't the savior. Most still have faith that he can be. I don't think anyone here, besides me, wants to lean heavy on Howard.

It sounds to me like you've been reading too much of my constant Howard drum-beating, and not enough of the rest of the board.

Hey, I've been giving Top Jimmy props when called for for years now.  Lots of average saves over the years at key moments.

[gcom007 1,465]

I’ll dig more into older Howard references, but here’s an early one that references his slow development and poor start with the organization. Again, not surprised at all how people have conveniently forgotten how all but written off Howard was when he initially joined the team. 

http://blog.mlive.com/regners-ravings/2010/04/post.html

And to be clear, I’m not saying Howard is “the worst” and I’m not wildly enthused about either goalie really at this point given all that’s gone on. Mrazek has a lot of work to do to prove he can be a big game goalie consistently, though I do believe he has the potential to be great.

But Howard has had a career based on wild ups and downs, and he kicked off his NHL career at an older age than Mrazek is now!

All I’m saying is I think it’s well worth giving Mrazek a bit more benefit of the doubt. We’re not an organization rich in top-notch prospects, and while Mrazek’s fallen from grace, he’s still very young and with the right attitude and choices, he still has potential to turn things around.

Edited July 22, 2017 by gcom007

[gcom007 1,465]

11 hours ago, kliq said:

Ya that did happen, I remember that as well. But for a goalie that is quite conman as they typically take a bit longer to develop

So we’re going to get impatient with Mrazek who’s had higher NHL highs than Howard ever has had at a younger age than Howard was when Howard got his “last chance” and finally got his s*** together?

Makes sense.

I’m not saying Mrazek is the savior and he could disappear to Europe in no time, but he’s a better long term bet than Howard, and we’re not in a position to be gambling. If a brittle 33 year old Howard who’s consistently floundered in the playoffs (when healthy...) is our best shot, you’re in serious trouble.

You bet on youth when you’re prospect-poor and you’ve got a goalie that’s shown extended glimpses of pure elite brilliance. It’s simple as that. 

[kliq 3,755]

3 hours ago, gcom007 said:

So we’re going to get impatient with Mrazek who’s had higher NHL highs than Howard ever has had at a younger age than Howard was when Howard got his “last chance” and finally got his s*** together?

Makes sense.

I’m not saying Mrazek is the savior and he could disappear to Europe in no time, but he’s a better long term bet than Howard, and we’re not in a position to be gambling. If a brittle 33 year old Howard who’s consistently floundered in the playoffs (when healthy...) is our best shot, you’re in serious trouble.

You bet on youth when you’re prospect-poor and you’ve got a goalie that’s shown extended glimpses of pure elite brilliance. It’s simple as that. 

Your first paragraph is directed at me as if I said I wanted to go with Howard over Mrazek.....where did I say that? I have gone on record many times saying I want to trade Howard and go with Mrazek, but not because Howard sucks, but rather he is a middle aged goaltender with an injury history. If we could have Howard as a backup at a 2mi caphit, I would love to have him here. With that being said, I don't think Mrazek is a sure thing by any stretch.

My comments to you were:

"Jimmy became a full time starting goaltender at 25, that is not that late for a goalie.

Can you provide something to back these claims up?  Based on your "whiny" comment, I am prompted to believe this is an emotional based post opposed to a factual post."

If you interpreted that as me saying get rid of Mrazek and stick with Howard then that's on you.

[THATANK911 17]

I like Howard. But understand his days are numbered. Play was good when he wasn't hurt last year. Petr I Hope he has a better season and loses the high and mighty crap. Cause he got destroyed last year. Not counting what our Defense gave up. Just the simple crap he let in. Hope they get him off the mask twitch. Dude could blend paint in his mouth.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

On 7/21/2017 at 8:41 PM, gcom007 said:

I’ll dig more into older Howard references, but here’s an early one that references his slow development and poor start with the organization. Again, not surprised at all how people have conveniently forgotten how all but written off Howard was when he initially joined the team. 

http://blog.mlive.com/regners-ravings/2010/04/post.html

And to be clear, I’m not saying Howard is “the worst” and I’m not wildly enthused about either goalie really at this point given all that’s gone on. Mrazek has a lot of work to do to prove he can be a big game goalie consistently, though I do believe he has the potential to be great.

But Howard has had a career based on wild ups and downs, and he kicked off his NHL career at an older age than Mrazek is now!

All I’m saying is I think it’s well worth giving Mrazek a bit more benefit of the doubt. We’re not an organization rich in top-notch prospects, and while Mrazek’s fallen from grace, he’s still very young and with the right attitude and choices, he still has potential to turn things around.

You said Howard ran his mouth with the media and was generally "negative".

This article says Howard got fat over the summer.

What am I missing?

[chaps80 1,591]

I like Howard. But understand his days are numbered. Play was good when he wasn't hurt last year. Petr I Hope he has a better season and loses the high and mighty crap. Cause he got destroyed last year. Not counting what our Defense gave up. Just the simple crap he let in. Hope they get him off the mask twitch. Dude could blend paint in his mouth.

Why does a mask twitch matter? Lol Goalies all have their own quirks. Dryden leaning on his stick, Roy talking to the goalposts, Kipprusoff lifting his mask up, Lehtonen sitting on top of the net. Tons of that kinda simple stuff that becomes ritual.


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[chaps80 1,591]

Not really.
This board has been a Mrazek circle-jerk since 2012, and only now are posters starting to warm up to the idea that he isn't the savior. Most still have faith that he can be. I don't think anyone here, besides me, wants to lean heavy on Howard.
It sounds to me like you've been reading too much of my constant Howard drum-beating, and not enough of the rest of the board.

Agreed there was a lot of s*** on Howard around here when he started going downhill. But I've noticed a lot of pro-Howard posts since a couple months into the past season. Maybe not as pro-Howard as your posts, but they are there nonetheless. Mrazek's bad season seemed to make Howard's good play in minimal games worth more to people than maybe it should have.


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[chaps80 1,591]

Ya that did happen, I remember that as well. But for a goalie that is quite conman as they typically take a bit longer to develop

They do. So why give up on one the same age with a huge ceiling? I think his first NHL games were in the 2014 season. Played 9. Only been up full time for two full seasons now. But, I think it's hard for any young goalie on any team to come in ( especially in Detroit) and fully replace a veteran who has been in the system since the mid-00's. Howard has been around so long that even when Holland was shopping him, he may not even have been fully dedicated to moving him. Maybe in his mind he hoped he'd be able to keep him, while being able to say "he tried". He does love the s*** out of his veterans. Daley is the latest one to come aboard


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[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

35 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

 

Agreed there was a lot of s*** on Howard around here when he started going downhill. But I've noticed a lot of pro-Howard posts since a couple months into the past season. Maybe not as pro-Howard as your posts, but they are there nonetheless. Mrazek's bad season seemed to make Howard's good play in minimal games worth more to people than maybe it should have.


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Like I said, this board is starting realize that Mrazek isnt the next coming of Hasek and Howard isnt LOLgarbage. The truth, like with most things, lies somewhere in the middle. That middle is we have 2 very average starting goaltenders. Both with value and problems in their own right.

[kliq 3,755]

1 hour ago, chaps80 said:

They do. So why give up on one the same age with a huge ceiling? I think his first NHL games were in the 2014 season. Played 9. Only been up full time for two full seasons now. But, I think it's hard for any young goalie on any team to come in ( especially in Detroit) and fully replace a veteran who has been in the system since the mid-00's. Howard has been around so long that even when Holland was shopping him, he may not even have been fully dedicated to moving him. Maybe in his mind he hoped he'd be able to keep him, while being able to say "he tried". He does love the s*** out of his veterans. Daley is the latest one to come aboard


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I never once said we should give up on Mrazek.

[chaps80 1,591]

Like I said, this board is starting realize that Mrazek isnt the next coming of Hasek and Howard isnt LOLgarbage. The truth, like with most things, lies somewhere in the middle. That middle is we have 2 very average starting goaltenders. Both with value and problems in their own right.

Anyone who thought Mrazek was the next coming of Hasek is pretty damn delusional. He's got skill, but not Hasek skill.


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[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 hours ago, chaps80 said:

 

Anyone who thought Mrazek was the next coming of Hasek is pretty damn delusional. He's got skill, but not Hasek skill.


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based on his most recent season he barely has backup skill

[krsmith17 7,191]

5 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

based on his most recent season he barely has backup skill

Based on Larkin's most recent season, he's barely a 3rd liner... Do you think that's the case?

Virtually every Detroit Red Wing (minus 2-3) had a bad year by their own standards last season. Mrazek had an AWFUL year.

I think most players are better than they played last season. I think Mrazek is MUCH better than he played last season.

[AtlantaHotWings 982]

On 7/22/2017 at 0:41 AM, gcom007 said:

 

All I’m saying is I think it’s well worth giving Mrazek a bit more benefit of the doubt. We’re not an organization rich in top-notch prospects, and while Mrazek’s fallen from grace, he’s still very young and with the right attitude and choices, he still has potential to turn things around.

I think his attitude is the key to working his way out of the hole. What's the old adage "Work beats talent when talent doesn't work" So  translate it to "Jimmy beats Petr when Petr doesn't work" 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Based on Larkin's most recent season, he's barely a 3rd liner... Do you think that's the case?

Virtually every Detroit Red Wing (minus 2-3) had a bad year by their own standards last season. Mrazek had an AWFUL year.

I think most players are better than they played last season. I think Mrazek is MUCH better than he played last season.

I'm definitely not as thrilled with Larkin after last season. You can call it a sophomore slump (I don't really believe that old mythos), but I think his first season came at the benefit of playing with Zetterberg and the muscley protection of Abdelkader. He didn't have that this season and his production dropped off, as well as he became a -28. I don't put a ton of stock into +/- but -28 is alarming.

However, unlike Mrazek, Larkin is still a baby at 20 and no one is questioning his work ethic or attitude. I trust management, and management seems to trust him. That being said, no I don't think he will be the phenom that he seemed like he would be when he first entered the league, but he can probably become a top 6 player for us. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

39 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I'm definitely not as thrilled with Larkin after last season. You can call it a sophomore slump (I don't really believe that old mythos), but I think his first season came at the benefit of playing with Zetterberg and the muscley protection of Abdelkader. He didn't have that this season and his production dropped off, as well as he became a -28. I don't put a ton of stock into +/- but -28 is alarming.

However, unlike Mrazek, Larkin is still a baby at 20 and no one is questioning his work ethic or attitude. I trust management, and management seems to trust him. That being said, no I don't think he will be the phenom that he seemed like he would be when he first entered the league, but he can probably become a top 6 player for us. 

Larkin will be 21 to start this season, which is very young for a forward. Mrazek will be 25 to start this season, which is very young for a goaltender. Larkin has played 160 NHL games, came in hot (made the All-Star team), but struggled this past season. Mrazek has played in 144 NHL games, came in hot (put up Vezina numbers), but struggled this past season. I think Larkin is capable of becoming a good number one / very good number two center, and I think Mrazek is capable of becoming a good / great starter in the NHL.

There's no question Larkin's great rookie season was largely due to Zetterberg, but his sophomore slump was also largely due to playing with Abdelkader and Sheahan. But again, virtually every player had down years, so I'm not too concerned. I'm also not too concerned about Mrazek's work ethic or attitude *yet*. I think it's been somewhat exaggerated around here, and it's something he's been said to be working on. As long as he comes into camp ready to play with a positive mindset, I think he'll be fine.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

Larkin will be 21 to start this season, which is very young for a forward. Mrazek will be 25 to start this season, which is very young for a goaltender. Larkin has played 160 NHL games, came in hot (made the All-Star team), but struggled this past season. Mrazek has played in 144 NHL games, came in hot (put up Vezina numbers), but struggled this past season. I think Larkin is capable of becoming a good number one / very good number two center, and I think Mrazek is capable of becoming a good / great starter in the NHL.

There's no question Larkin's great rookie season was largely due to Zetterberg, but his sophomore slump was also largely due to playing with Abdelkader and Sheahan. But again, virtually every player had down years, so I'm not too concerned. I'm also not too concerned about Mrazek's work ethic or attitude *yet*. I think it's been somewhat exaggerated around here, and it's something he's been said to be working on. As long as he comes into camp ready to play with a positive mindset, I think he'll be fine.

Regardless of when forwards and goalies usually start playing, both entered the league early, but  Mrazek is a grown man at 25 and Larkin is a baby at 21.

I'm not sold on either yet. Larkin and Mrazek both have a longggg way to go and a lot to prove before either are considered a 1C or fulltime starter.

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Regardless of when forwards and goalies usually start playing, both entered the league early, but  Mrazek is a grown man at 25 and Larkin is a baby at 21.

I'm not sold on either yet. Larkin and Mrazek both have a longggg way to go and a lot to prove before either are considered a 1C or fulltime starter.

21 isn't a grown man? My point is that forwards generally have a smoother transition than goalies. It usually takes goaltenders (and defensemen) a little longer to figure things out at the NHL level. Forwards, for the most part, don't have to go through such a learning curve coming from the American League.

The bolded, I completely agree with.