kliq 3,755 Report post Posted July 27, 2017 Now that we are just over a year out, who would you rather have? Please answer based on the defenseman in question, this pole has nothing to do with Datsyuk's contract or the signing of Nielsen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted July 27, 2017 I think you could add Kasper Kotkansalo as well, since we wouldn't have had him without the Vanek trade, and we wouldn't have had Vanek without the Datsyuk trade. I'd still rather Chychrun right now, because I'm not confident any of Cholowski, Hronek or Kotkansalo will ever be better, but if even one of those three develop into anything close to Chychrun, it's a win for us. So yeah, my vote goes to Chychrun right now, but I could easily see it changing in the next couple years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amato 3,210 Report post Posted July 27, 2017 Maybe it's the optimist in me but I have a really good feeling about Cholowski. All the reports of his vision and hockey IQ being good have me pretty excited for his development. It seems like the things he's good at are things that you either have or don't and the knocks on him on draft day (size/strength for example iirc) are things that can be trained. And he's already put on 20+ lbs since being drafted.. I do wish we had Chychrun; I think he'll be a stud sometime soon. But I think Cholowski has similar long term potential and adding Hronek and maybe Kotkansalo pushes me toward picking the side we got in this poll. Hopefully Cholowski gets to start in Grand Rapids and starts making a name for himself.. I'm excited to see how all of our young Griffin D men pan out this year and beyond. 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xault 272 Report post Posted July 28, 2017 Chychrun would of been at the very least our 3rd best Dman last season in my opinion. Not 2-4 seasons from now, like the other 2. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kliq 3,755 Report post Posted July 28, 2017 39 minutes ago, xault said: Chychrun would of been at the very least our 3rd best Dman last season in my opinion. Not 2-4 seasons from now, like the other 2. But who will be better in 2 years? That's what matters. 1 SwedeLundin77 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kickazz 5,459 Report post Posted July 28, 2017 The answer is: I don't know. 1 Jonas Mahonas reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marcaractac 3,963 Report post Posted July 28, 2017 4 hours ago, kliq said: But who will be better in 2 years? That's what matters. I'll let you know when I find my crystal ball 1 F.Michael reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kliq 3,755 Report post Posted July 28, 2017 5 hours ago, marcaractac said: I'll let you know when I find my crystal ball My point is who is better now means nothing, its who would you rather have in 2 years from now. Everything we talk about on this board is either specification or analysis. 1 Keep Your Stick On the Ice reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022 Report post Posted July 28, 2017 It's hard to say because Chychrun was one of the most NHL ready players in that draft, whereas Cholo and Hronek still need more time to develop physically. But Hronek is developing really nice and looks very promising as an offensive D-man/quarterback. Probably most excited about him of all our D prospects. And now Cholo has packed on 25 lbs and everyone says his positioning/stickwork/and ability to read the game are super high level. Of the 3, nobody has busted yet that's for sure. 3 FifeHockeyNut, Dabura and krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kickazz 5,459 Report post Posted July 28, 2017 I think Chychrun is yummier 1 Jonas Mahonas reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted July 28, 2017 ask me in 5 years Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Pred 48 337 Report post Posted July 30, 2017 these two 3 puckbags, F.Michael and Keep Your Stick On the Ice reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted July 30, 2017 Konstantinov would be suspended every other game if he played like he did back then. Wussification of the USA (and Canada) 3 puckbags, F.Michael and Keep Your Stick On the Ice reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kliq 3,755 Report post Posted August 3, 2017 He's young, and it says he will make a full recovery, but this kid has been injured quite a few times now and I remember at the draft this being his biggest negative. The more I think about this trade, the more I think we are going to come out the winners. http://www.tsn.ca/chychrun-out-indefinitely-after-knee-surgery-1.821775 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted August 3, 2017 Came here to post the same thing. Our future top 4 will be... Cholowski - Hronek Kotkansalo - Saarijarvi Chychrun will never recover from knee surgery and will be a complete bust... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kickazz 5,459 Report post Posted August 3, 2017 30 minutes ago, kliq said: He's young, and it says he will make a full recovery, but this kid has been injured quite a few times now and I remember at the draft this being his biggest negative. The more I think about this trade, the more I think we are going to come out the winners. http://www.tsn.ca/chychrun-out-indefinitely-after-knee-surgery-1.821775 Much like back surgeries, you're never truly the same after knee surgeries. 1 Jonas Mahonas reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeftWinger 4,961 Report post Posted August 4, 2017 14 hours ago, krsmith17 said: Came here to post the same thing. Our future top 4 will be... Cholowski - Hronek Kotkansalo - Saarijarvi Chychrun will never recover from knee surgery and will be a complete bust... Don't forget Butcher! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted August 4, 2017 52 minutes ago, LeftWinger said: Don't forget Butcher! I don't think we'll get him, and I don't think he's a top 4. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jacksoni 418 Report post Posted August 4, 2017 On 7/30/2017 at 6:53 PM, Andy Pred 48 said: these two I'll fill every other position with lots of Sheahans if we get these two. Don't get into how to do it practically. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,207 Report post Posted August 4, 2017 23 hours ago, krsmith17 said: Came here to post the same thing. Our future top 4 will be... Cholowski - Hronek Kotkansalo - Saarijarvi Chychrun will never recover from knee surgery and will be a complete bust... I want to believe. Sobering fact: we haven't produced a true high-end NHL defenseman since NIklas Kronwall. Kronwall's breakout season was ten years ago, and now he's in the final stages of his career, so we've basically gone his entire NHL career without producing a single Kronwall-caliber defenseman. (That can't be right. Right? Someone tell me I'm forgetting someone. I genuinely want to be wrong on this. .__.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kliq 3,755 Report post Posted August 4, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Dabura said: I want to believe. Sobering fact: we haven't produced a true high-end NHL defenseman since NIklas Kronwall. Kronwall's breakout season was ten years ago, and now he's in the final stages of his career, so we've basically gone his entire NHL career without producing a single Kronwall-caliber defenseman. (That can't be right. Right? Someone tell me I'm forgetting someone. I genuinely want to be wrong on this. .__.) D drafted since 2001 (Kronwall taken in 2000) not including last 3 drafts since its too early. Looks like Smith & E are the best we drafted since Kronwall. 2011 class/Jensen are still up in the air, but for the most part these guys are pretty much no names. To be fair though, ALOT of these guys are low end picks. Source: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005492.html 2001 - Miroslav Blatak, Dmitry Bykov, Francois Senez 2002 - Johan Berggren, Derek Meech, Pierre-Olivier Beaulieu, Jonathan Ericsson 2003 - Kyle Quincey, 2004 - Sergei Kolosov, Nils Backstrom 2005 - Jakub Kindl, Jeff May, Juho Mielonen, Bretton Stamler 2006 - Logan Pyett 2007 - Brendan Smith, Bryan Rufenach, 2008 - Max Nicastro 2009 - Gleason Fournier, Nick Jensen, Adam Almquist 2010 - Ben Marshall 2011 - Xavier Ouellet, Ryan Sproul, Mattias Backman, Richard Nedomlel, Alexey Marchenko 2012 - Mike McKee, James De Haas 2013 - Mitch Wheaton, Marc McNulty 2014 - None Edited August 5, 2017 by kliq 1 Dabura reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted August 5, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Dabura said: I want to believe. Sobering fact: we haven't produced a true high-end NHL defenseman since NIklas Kronwall. Kronwall's breakout season was ten years ago, and now he's in the final stages of his career, so we've basically gone his entire NHL career without producing a single Kronwall-caliber defenseman. (That can't be right. Right? Someone tell me I'm forgetting someone. I genuinely want to be wrong on this. .__.) Yes. Yes you are. His name is Brendan Smith... Seriously though, the only thing I've gathered from this, is that we're long overdue. I'm still not sure we have a true stud number one, but I think a few have the potential to become top pair defensemen. Most will end up as 2nd pair or lower, and that's fine, but I'm really hoping at least one (Cholowski?) turns out to be a big time player for us. 3 hours ago, kliq said: D drafted since 2001 (Kronwall taken in 2000) not including last 3 drafts since its too early. Looks like Smith & E are the best we drafted since Kronwall. 2011 class/Jensen are still up in the air, but for the most part these guys are pretty much no names. To be fair though, ALOT of these guys are low end picks. Source: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005492.html 2001 - Miroslav Blatak, Dmitry Bykov, Francois Senez 2002 - Johan Berggren, Derek Meech, Pierre-Olivier Beaulieu, Jonathan Ericsson 2003 - Kyle Quincey, 2004 - Sergei Kolosov, Nils Backstrom 2005 - Jakub Kindl, Jeff May, Juho Mielonen, Bretton Stamler 2006 - Logan Pyett 2007 - Brendan Smith, Bryan Rufenach, 2008 - Max Nicastro 2009 - Gleason Fournier, Nick Jensen, Adam Almquist 2010 - Ben Marshall 2011 - Xavier Ouellet, Ryan Sproul, Mattias Backman, Richard Nedomlel, Alexey Marchenko 2012 - Mike McKee, James De Haas 2013 - Mitch Wheaton, Marc McNulty 2014 - None Also since Kronwall, we've drafted our first defenseman in each year at... 2001 - Blatak (129) 2002 - Berggren (131) 2003 - Quincey (132) 2004 - Kolosov (151) 2005 - Kindl (19) 2006 - Pyett (212) 2007 - Smith (27) 2008 - Nicastro (91) 2009 - Fournier (90) 2010 - Marshall (201) 2011 - Ouellet (48) 2012 - McKee (140) 2013 - Wheaton (139) 2014 - N/A 2015 - Saarijarvi (73) 2016 - Cholowski (20) 2017 - Lindstrom (38) In 17 years, only three 1st round picks (Kindl, Smith, Cholowski), four 2nd round picks (Ouellet, Sproul (same year), Hronek (same year as Cholowski), and Lindstrom), and the rest were 3rd round our later. It's no wonder we've never had much luck drafting and developing defensemen when we simply haven't drafted enough, high enough... We seem to be tipping the scale a little in recent years, which is great, and hopefully one or... five of these guys pan out to be very good players for us... Edited August 5, 2017 by krsmith17 2 kliq and Dabura reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kliq 3,755 Report post Posted August 5, 2017 4 hours ago, krsmith17 said: Yes. Yes you are. His name is Brendan Smith... Seriously though, the only thing I've gathered from this, is that we're long overdue. I'm still not sure we have a true stud number one, but I think a few have the potential to become top pair defensemen. Most will end up as 2nd pair or lower, and that's fine, but I'm really hoping at least one (Cholowski?) turns out to be a big time player for us. Also since Kronwall, we've drafted our first defenseman in each year at... 2001 - Blatak (129) 2002 - Berggren (131) 2003 - Quincey (132) 2004 - Kolosov (151) 2005 - Kindl (19) 2006 - Pyett (212) 2007 - Smith (27) 2008 - Nicastro (91) 2009 - Fournier (90) 2010 - Marshall (201) 2011 - Ouellet (48) 2012 - McKee (140) 2013 - Wheaton (139) 2014 - N/A 2015 - Saarijarvi (73) 2016 - Cholowski (20) 2017 - Lindstrom (38) In 17 years, only three 1st round picks (Kindl, Smith, Cholowski), four 2nd round picks (Ouellet, Sproul (same year), Hronek (same year as Cholowski), and Lindstrom), and the rest were 3rd round our later. It's no wonder we've never had much luck drafting and developing defensemen when we simply haven't drafted enough, high enough... We seem to be tipping the scale a little in recent years, which is great, and hopefully one or... five of these guys pan out to be very good players for us... You can tell in 2011 Holland went all in drafting D with the anticipation of Lidstrom's retirement, which obviously was only 1 year away (I have to wonder if Lidstrom gave him the head's up a year out). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted August 5, 2017 4 hours ago, kliq said: You can tell in 2011 Holland went all in drafting D with the anticipation of Lidstrom's retirement, which obviously was only 1 year away (I have to wonder if Lidstrom gave him the head's up a year out). Yes, but if that is the case, that wasn't the best planning by Holland and his staff. I know it was Nicklas Lidstrom, but even the perfect human had to retire at some point, and he was 40 years old. Realistically, they should have been setting themselves up for Lidstrom's retirement much sooner than 2011. I know you should "take the best player available", but at some point you need to draft for team need, and it was clear that defense should have been addressed a lot sooner. 22 of their 74 draft picks (less than 30%) in that time were defensemen, and of those 22 defensemen that were selected, they averaged 178th overall. That's crazy! In saying that, a big reason that number was so high was because they traded away a lot of picks at that time, going on Stanley Cup runs. It's hard to fault them for that, as it proved to be a successful strategy. And it's not even like they selected forwards every year, passing on high end defensemen. For the most part, especially earlier (2001-2006), they picked best player (defenseman) available, even using hindsight. We could have had Subban in 2007, but we did take a defenseman in Smith, who at the time was regarded as a higher potential defenseman, so it's hard to fault them for that. In 2008, they took McCollum, and even back then I hated that pick, mainly because I don't like taking goalies that high in the draft. In hindsight, they could have taken Voynov or Josi with that pick if they were targeting defensemen, which they probably should have at that point. 2009 was a very weak draft for defensemen (outside of the top half of the first round), so it's hard to fault them for the Ferraro pick. In 2010 when they took Sheahan, they could have had Faulk, but that would have been a bit of a reach at the time, and they would have had to get very lucky to pick him out of all the other terrible defensemen that we're selected around him. So I guess, I'm not sure what they could have done to better prepare for Lidstrom's retirement, other than trade up in the top 10-15, but even that would have been a bit of a crap shoot. So I guess more than anything, they were unlucky taking defensemen for quite a few years. Hopefully that is about to change with the high volume of defensemen taken in the past few years. The more I hear about Cholowski, the more excited I'm getting for him. I'm definitely going to pay close attention and watch some of his games this season. 1 kliq reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kliq 3,755 Report post Posted August 5, 2017 3 hours ago, krsmith17 said: So I guess, I'm not sure what they could have done to better prepare for Lidstrom's retirement, other than trade up in the top 10-15, but even that would have been a bit of a crap shoot. So I guess more than anything, they were unlucky taking defensemen for quite a few years. Hopefully that is about to change with the high volume of defensemen taken in the past few years. Ya, the way I look at it Holland had 3 plans. 1) Sign Suter, he came close, but obviously this didnt workout. 2) Draft a ton of kids, hope one breaks out. Again obviously this didnt workout, I remember back then they had high high hopes for Smith. 3) Elevate Kronwall. This is what he did. Tough spot to be in when a franchise D retires, really can't replace that. 1 Keep Your Stick On the Ice reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
