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Athanasiou Rumor

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12 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Look at what players who had a similar year to AA got.  It was in the $2.2 mil range.  "Oh," the apologists will say, " most of those players were drafted higher or have played another year in the NHL."  Doesn't matter.  If anything, the fact that he put up those numbers at a younger age than they did suggest he cold be better.

The other argument is "well, what will they have to pay Mantha and Larkin if AA gets $2.5?"  The answer is market value, and it wouldn't be an issue if not for all of the bad contracts, which is why I got so pissed that every UFA signed by Holland lately got " just $500k or so too much."  Kissazz and the rest of the Holland slappy crew said it wasn't a big deal  when anyone who understood basic math could figure out that $500k too much for each of 6 or 7 players adds up to a lot of money.  Nielsen was an absolute stupid signing, even though in a vacuum it' isn't "horrible."  They got an aging guy who has never been more than a 2nd line center and who is declining into solidly 3C ability to help make up for losing one of the best Wings players in the last 40 years, and he helped lead them to their worst season in decades.  Glad we had him so they could finish next to last in the conference instead of last, that would have been REALLY embarrassing!  :eh: If we're REALLY lucky, maybe the team will a;; miraculously rebound and they'll get the 8th seed this year and get swept, losing any shot of a top 3 pick in the draft.

Don't sign Nielsen to that deal, everyone has plenty of room to sign.  Don't give GLendening double what he's worth, AA can sign.  Don't pay grinders approaching their 30th birthday too much, AA can sign and they won't have to be concerned about Mantha and Larkin's next deals.

My earlier response was done quickly from the game. Now that I am paying more attention to what you actually wrote I will address each part as its much more pissy then I realized.

"Oh," the apologists will say, " most of those players were drafted higher or have played another year in the NHL."  Doesn't matter.  If anything, the fact that he put up those numbers at a younger age than they did suggest he cold be better.

As far as the draft part goes, who made this argument? I don't give a crap where someone was drafted, its about their production. As far as how many years a player has played, that does matter as its simple statistics and you don't need a PhD to understand this. The smaller the sample size, the less likely you are at getting an accurate picture of what a player can do. If AA put up those numbers 2 years in a row, you're damn right it matters, just because it doesnt matter to you means nothing.

The other argument is "well, what will they have to pay Mantha and Larkin if AA gets $2.5?"  The answer is market value, and it wouldn't be an issue if not for all of the bad contracts, which is why I got so pissed that every UFA signed by Holland lately got " just $500k or so too much."  Kissazz and the rest of the Holland slappy crew said it wasn't a big deal  when anyone who understood basic math could figure out that $500k too much for each of 6 or 7 players adds up to a lot of money.

Again, why are you so pissy? You're trying to create this false narrative that everyone is pro Holland and you are attempting to twist any logical point people make into a "You're just a Holland slappy" narrative in a failed attempt to dismiss their point. I have said it before, and I will say it again, I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of the points you try to make, I don't think you are a dumb poster, what I argue is your over the top nature and the extreme's you go to when making the points. Secondly, it's not the 500K extra a few players on this team are being paid that is hurting this team, check other payrolls, that is just the NHL and a product of unrestricted free agency. What is hurting this team is the amount of contracts given out to mid range players. Take away say Helm, Glendening, and E's contracts, and we are not in anymore cap trouble. 

Nielsen was an absolute stupid signing, even though in a vacuum it' isn't "horrible."  They got an aging guy who has never been more than a 2nd line center and who is declining into solidly 3C ability to help make up for losing one of the best Wings players in the last 40 years, and he helped lead them to their worst season in decades.  Glad we had him so they could finish next to last in the conference instead of last, that would have been REALLY embarrassing!  :eh: If we're REALLY lucky, maybe the team will a;; miraculously rebound and they'll get the 8th seed this year and get swept, losing any shot of a top 3 pick in the draft.

I have said many many many times on here that I didn't like the Nielsen signing, not sure why you are using this in a point towards me. The only thing I ever said about him to you, was when you were ranting about how he was not a 2C, I showed stats proving he was a low end 2C, high end 3C. This does not mean I liked the signing, or that I disagreed with the main aspect of your point.

Don't sign Nielsen to that deal, everyone has plenty of room to sign.  Don't give GLendening double what he's worth, AA can sign.  Don't pay grinders approaching their 30th birthday too much, AA can sign and they won't have to be concerned about Mantha and Larkin's next deals.

I don't disagree with most of this, and I dont think others do either. Not sure why you insist on ranting about this in every other post. The only thing I would counter here, is that I believe Holland is playing hardball  with AA because precedents set in RFA negotiations are different then one's set in UFA negotiations. Does that mean that by thinking this I like all the UFA signings? No. 

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On 9/24/2017 at 2:40 AM, kipwinger said:

Straw man.  I've never said Holland was an idiot, nor anything like it.  I said he was lowballing AA to bail himself out of the cap trouble that he put himself in, but that's about it.  If you want to respond to the people who call Holland an idiot, do so.  But you responded to me, and are now insinuating that I'm in that same camp because I think Holland should sign the kid to a contract that you seem alright with.  Your criticism of the "Holland sucks" crowd is appropriate, but it's got nothing to do with me.  My only argument has been that maybe in a team as bad offensively as ours is, our GM should probably think about offering one of his better goal scorers more than he's paying Luke Glendening.

And if you don't think this has anything to do with the cap, I'd point to the relative ease with which Holland signed any number of unproven or unproductive players when he had the money to do so.  I notice he never held Glendening, or Helm, or Abby, or Sheahan, or Ericsson over the coals for a couple hundred thousand dollars, but suddenly he draws a hard line on AA.  Hmmm...I wonder what changed?

Fair enough, sorry if I overstated the level of your Holland criticism. (Though in my defense, I meant that part as more of a generalization about the board as a whole.) 

I still say you're wrong about the lowballing/insulting offer. At worst, he's maybe slightly toward the low end of the fair range, but nothing that should warrant criticism. Again, it's a negotiation. You are making a big assumption with this idea that Holland has just given everyone else whatever they were asking for. That it's all just Holland being more obstinate than usual. 

When Helm was coming off a 24 point season (and also being a good defensive center and PK leader), why are we so sure he wasn't asking for a little more than the ~$912K he got? Or Sheahan more than $950K after scoring 24 in 42 games. Or Dekeyser after scoring 23 in 65 as a defenseman and playing 20+ minutes a night maybe wanted a little more than ~$2.2M. Maybe it's AA being more stubborn than most players. 

When Glendening was coming off his ELC, he signed for 3 years @ ~$630K. That he (and others) have been treated well after paying their dues should, if anything, give AA confidence that he too will be treated well when his time comes. The same argument you are making could be used to say AA should get more than Helm or Abdelkader, or a similar deal to Nyquist, Tatar, and Nielsen. But no one (not even AA) thinks that because everyone knows he's not in the same situation. So he shouldn't be compared to Glendening either. 

And maybe you're right that having more free cap space would make Holland more amenable to paying more. But the reason I don't believe that is the main issue is the math I mentioned earlier. Upping our offer to ~$2.3M really changes nothing in terms of what we would have to do to become compliant. There isn't really any urgency here, so it's somewhat more plausible that Holland is just waiting it out to see if we can avoid trading Sheahan. (And that might make sense depending on what, if any, offer we have for him.) Maybe we're thinking of waiving Ouellet, and expecting he'd clear, which would then give us just a hair under $2M, but that would surprise me given Sproul's injury. And even if we did want to say it's all just the cap situation, it doesn't really change anything. Being angry about past decisions doesn't give us extra cap space.

Edited by Buppy

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