Athanasiou Signed 1 year $1.4 mil

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, Euro_Twins said:

At this point he's doing more harm to his career than if he had just taken the stupid deal lol 

I was trying to say that a few weeks ago. Just take the stupid contract and build your reputation, and NHL stats for a better contract down the road.

 

[kipwinger 8,518]

If your boss offered you a salary, and you thought you were worth more than he offered, would it be your responsibility to take less to prove your worth?  AA obviously feels he's worth more than 1.9 million.  Why should he take less?  You think he's dying to get back on the ice for a coach who doesn't use him much and a team that's going nowhere?  Might as well just trade him at this point.

[Dabura 12,207]

20 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

If your boss offered you a salary, and you thought you were worth more than he offered, would it be your responsibility to take less to prove your worth?  AA obviously feels he's worth more than 1.9 million.  Why should he take less?  You think he's dying to get back on the ice for a coach who doesn't use him much and a team that's going nowhere?  Might as well just trade him at this point.

He should take the offer because it's market value and sitting out is not going to do him any good on any front. Holland will not trade him. No one is going to offer sheet him. If he's smart, he takes the offer and works his ass off to prove he's for real and to earn a big raise when it comes time to negotiate a new contract. If he's sitting out because of Blashill, he needs to get over himself and grow up.

[kipwinger 8,518]

Just now, Dabura said:

He should take the offer because it's market value and sitting out is not going to do him any good on any front. Holland will not trade him. No one is going to offer sheet him. If he's smart, he takes the offer and works his ass off to prove he's for real and to earn a big raise when it comes time to negotiate a new contract. If he's sitting out because of Blashill, he needs to get over himself and grow up.

You saying the offer is market value doesn't make it so.  Market value is determined by supply and demand, not "player comparables".  I will donate $50 dollars to a charity of your choice if you can find a single Ken Holland reference to "comparables" prior to this year.  It's a negotiating tactic.  AA supplies goals.  Ken Holland needs goals.  Hence, Holland has to move toward the upper end of the price range.  So far he's failed to do so, and has alienated a good young talent in the process.  Saying that Holland should offer his young talent what some other GM, who's team is at a totally different point in their lifecycle is offering his, is way off base IMO.  If Holland doesn't want to pay AA 500K more, trade him and be done with it.  

[kliq 3,755]

27 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

If your boss offered you a salary, and you thought you were worth more than he offered, would it be your responsibility to take less to prove your worth?  AA obviously feels he's worth more than 1.9 million.  Why should he take less?  You think he's dying to get back on the ice for a coach who doesn't use him much and a team that's going nowhere?  Might as well just trade him at this point.

If there was a clause in my contract saying that I was not able to leave my job for another job, then yes. 

[kipwinger 8,518]

Just now, kliq said:

If there was a clause in my contract saying that I was not able to leave my job for another job, then yes. 

No such clause exists in his either.  He's not under contract.  He's absolutely allowed to go play in another league.  Literally NOTHING prohibits him from that.  So again, would you take less money than you think you're worth just because your boss says you should?  Or would you go get another job where you get paid accordingly?

[kliq 3,755]

10 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

You saying the offer is market value doesn't make it so.  Market value is determined by supply and demand, not "player comparables".  I will donate $50 dollars to a charity of your choice if you can find a single Ken Holland reference to "comparables" prior to this year.  It's a negotiating tactic.  AA supplies goals.  Ken Holland needs goals.  Hence, Holland has to move toward the upper end of the price range.  So far he's failed to do so, and has alienated a good young talent in the process.  Saying that Holland should offer his young talent what some other GM, who's team is at a totally different point in their lifecycle is offering his, is way off base IMO.  If Holland doesn't want to pay AA 500K more, trade him and be done with it.  

Your argument is very logical, I can't fault your thinking, however it's just not the way GM's do business when it comes to RFA's. Comparables matter, that is how they determine what a player makes when it does go to arbitration. 

UFA's, different story.

6 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

No such clause exists in his either.  He's not under contract.  He's absolutely allowed to go play in another league.  Literally NOTHING prohibits him from that.  So again, would you take less money than you think you're worth just because your boss says you should?  Or would you go get another job where you get paid accordingly?

If the only job I could take was in Russia or a European country, then again....yes.

Edited October 3, 2017 by kliq

[kipwinger 8,518]

2 minutes ago, kliq said:

Your argument is very logical, I can't fault your thinking, however it's just not the way GM's do business when it comes to RFA's. Comparables matter, that is how they determine what a player makes when it does go to arbitration. 

UFA's, different story.

I'm not suggesting that Holland hand the kid a blank check or anything.  But we're talking about 500K here.  500k for a kid who was your second leading goal scorer, a fan favorite (at least up until this), and who is young enough to be a key part of your rebuild.  I'm not sure what IS worth 500k at this point in the Wings' developmental arch if that isn't.  I mean jeez, if Xavier Ouellet is worth 1.3 million then AA is worth 2.3-2.5 easily.

[kliq 3,755]

2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I'm not suggesting that Holland hand the kid a blank check or anything.  But we're talking about 500K here.  500k for a kid who was your second leading goal scorer, a fan favorite (at least up until this), and who is young enough to be a key part of your rebuild.  I'm not sure what IS worth 500k at this point in the Wings' developmental arch if that isn't.  I mean jeez, if Xavier Ouellet is worth 1.3 million then AA is worth 2.3-2.5 easily.

For the record, I dont think your overall logic is wrong, what I'm saying is that in the NHL for good or for worse, comparables are what GM's use when negotiating with RFA's. Maybe Holland has never said this before, but it is a thing and arbitration is the perfect example of this. 

Personally I think Holland should offer AA around 2.3 as 1.9 does seem a bit low for him.

[kipwinger 8,518]

If I were Holland I would offer him 4 years at 2.5 million.  Would put AA in a tough spot.  If he turns it down, it looks like he's being greedy, and if he accepts he'll likely out perform his contract in 3 of the 4 years. 

[brett 1,029]

guy hasnt even played a full NHL season. how can he be making demands

[kickazz 5,459]

41 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

If I were Holland I would offer him 4 years at 2.5 million.  Would put AA in a tough spot.  If he turns it down, it looks like he's being greedy, and if he accepts he'll likely out perform his contract in 3 of the 4 years. 

I mean if this was the corporate world, sure I stand my ground. But with pro-sports and as an up and coming player, if it has gone on this long, I would take the $1.9 million and play some hockey and prove my worth after 1 year or whatever the offer is. Especially because after looking at the franchise track record; they pay their RFAs decently well in their 2nd contracts (Nyquist, Tatar, etc)

Edited October 3, 2017 by kickazz

[kipwinger 8,518]

54 minutes ago, brett said:

guy hasnt even played a full NHL season. how can he be making demands

He's not "making demands".  He's choosing not to play for less money than he believes he's worth it.  Something which is entirely allowed by the collective bargaining agreement. He's not REQUIRED to play in the NHL nor for the Red Wings. And it's not like he's under contract and is just refusing to report to the team.  For comparison's sake, Jacob Trouba and Jonathan Drouin "demanded" trades.  AA did not. 

Edited October 3, 2017 by kipwinger

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

If I were Holland I would offer him 4 years at 2.5 million.  Would put AA in a tough spot.  If he turns it down, it looks like he's being greedy, and if he accepts he'll likely out perform his contract in 3 of the 4 years. 

We don't know if a deal like this was offered. It's entirely possible. In coverage of Tatar's deal and, I think, Abby's I've read that Hollland's approach was given 3 offers of different length. Then again those were UFA deals so maybe he has a different approach to these deals.

Anyway, I doubt AA would consider it since he and his agent know he would almost definitely be giving up money long term just for a longer deal. And I don't think that would be attractive since I doubt he's questioning that he'll be in the NHL for at least the next 4 years. Young players would want to get a shorter bridge deal so they can get at the real money/term.

Edited October 3, 2017 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[kipwinger 8,518]

10 minutes ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

We don't know if a deal like this was offered. It's entirely possible. In coverage of Tatar's deal and, I think, Abby's I've read that Hollland's approach was given 3 offers of different length. Then again those were UFA deals so maybe he has a different approach to these deals.

Anyway, I doubt AA would consider it since he and his agent know he would almost definitely be giving up money long term just for a longer deal. And I don't think that would be attractive since I doubt he's questioning that he'll be in the NHL for at least the next 4 years. Young players would want to get a shorter bridge deal so they can get at the real money/term.

That's precisely my point.  If he's hung up on the AAV, and wants more, then make him pay for it by signing for additional years.  If he rejects the offer then it's clear that the AAV isn't the problem, which is what his agent has said was the sticking point. 

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

2 hours ago, kipwinger said:

You saying the offer is market value doesn't make it so.  Market value is determined by supply and demand, not "player comparables".  I will donate $50 dollars to a charity of your choice if you can find a single Ken Holland reference to "comparables" prior to this year.  It's a negotiating tactic.  AA supplies goals.  Ken Holland needs goals.  Hence, Holland has to move toward the upper end of the price range.  So far he's failed to do so, and has alienated a good young talent in the process.  Saying that Holland should offer his young talent what some other GM, who's team is at a totally different point in their lifecycle is offering his, is way off base IMO.  If Holland doesn't want to pay AA 500K more, trade him and be done with it.  

Google search of "Ken Holland contract talks" and the first link on the Dekeyser negotiation:

"We had a number of productive talks until a couple of weeks ago," Holland told Ansar Khan of MLive, "[but] it's gone quiet the last couple of weeks. It's gotten to a point where it's difficult because there aren't many comparables."

https://www.thescore.com/news/575364

Not sure why you challenged this part. Of course GMs are always looking at comparables for negotiation. That's why we often get deals in waves in the offseason, when the market is set.

Edited October 3, 2017 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[kjw25 104]

This Gravedigger guy sure is an *******. 

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

34 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

That's precisely my point.  If he's hung up on the AAV, and wants more, then make him pay for it by signing for additional years.  If he rejects the offer then it's clear that the AAV isn't the problem, which is what his agent has said was the sticking point. 

Not exactly, though. Under the idea of a 2 year deal they have a demanded amount. If they were talking about a 1 year deal, I'm sure both sides would be arguing about different numbers. And the 4 year deal idea would be another thing as well.

 

Edited October 3, 2017 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[Buppy 1,720]

29 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

That's precisely my point.  If he's hung up on the AAV, and wants more, then make him pay for it by signing for additional years.  If he rejects the offer then it's clear that the AAV isn't the problem, which is what his agent has said was the sticking point. 

So basically, your whole argument about paying AA what he's worth is a bunch of BS, and you just want him signed, even if that means "lowballing" him even more in the long run and hoping he's stupid enough to bite on it.

[kipwinger 8,518]

Name your charity.  I'll make good on it.  Though I'm standing by my original statement, "comparables" mean dick in terms of setting a player's value.  If that were a primary factor in setting value Sidney Crosby would be the highest paid player in the league.  Yet worse players make more money because of economics.

[kipwinger 8,518]

9 minutes ago, Buppy said:

So basically, your whole argument about paying AA what he's worth is a bunch of BS, and you just want him signed, even if that means "lowballing" him even more in the long run and hoping he's stupid enough to bite on it.

Not at all.  It's Ken Holland's job to get AA signed to as team friendly a deal as possible. It's AA's agent's job to get the player the best deal possible.  To date, the agent has been more concerned with the salary than the term.  Seems fair that if Holland caved on the salary he could counter offer with a longer term and both get what they want.  That is, if the salary is the actual sticking point like the agent has suggested.  I think 2.5 is fair for AA.  But given that it's a negotiation why wouldn't I, if I were Holland, try to get another year or two out of him? 

Edit:  Holland's initial offer was 1.25 million for 1 year, and then bumped it to 1.9 for 2 years.  Just for context's sake. 

Edited October 3, 2017 by kipwinger

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Well, If you're serious about the charity, you can donate to the victims of this tragic Vegas shooting. This charity is listed on a couple major news networks as reliable and says 100% goes to the victims.

https://nationalcompassionfund.org/

[kipwinger 8,518]

10 minutes ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

Well, If you're serious about the charity, you can donate to the victims of this tragic Vegas shooting. This charity is listed on a couple major news networks as reliable and says 100% goes to the victims.

https://nationalcompassionfund.org/

Done.  Check your messages for confirmation.

[kliq 3,755]

56 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Name your charity.  I'll make good on it.  Though I'm standing by my original statement, "comparables" mean dick in terms of setting a player's value.  If that were a primary factor in setting value Sidney Crosby would be the highest paid player in the league.  Yet worse players make more money because of economics.

To be fair, as I was the one talking about comparables, comparables are used in RFA negotiations, UFA's/expiring RFA's/elite players are a totally different story.

[Buppy 1,720]

27 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Not at all.  It's Ken Holland's job to get AA signed to as team friendly a deal as possible. It's AA's agent's job to get the player the best deal possible.  To date, the agent has been more concerned with the salary than the term.  Seems fair that if Holland caved on the salary he could counter offer with a longer team and both get what they want.  That is, if the salary is the actual sticking point like the agent has suggested.  I think 2.5 is fair for AA.  But given that it's a negotiation why wouldn't I, if I were Holland, try to get another year or two out of him? 

That's disingenuous. The entire discussion you have been painting Holland as the bad guy for trying to get a "team friendly" deal. Now it's suddenly what he's supposed to do? No doubt if it were to come out that Holland did offer 4@$2.5, but AA was asking for just 2 years you'd flip back to accusing Holland of lowballing. 

Nothing wrong with just wanting AA signed, without any real concern over the specifics (beyond obviously not wanting a deal that hurts the team). That's probably where most of us are at. Just shouldn't be acting like the whole situation is all on Holland. Or all on AA, for anyone taking that position. 

RFA holdouts extending into the season are somewhat uncommon, but hardly unprecedented. I still say people are making this more of an issue than it really is. 

8 minutes ago, kliq said:

To be fair, as I was the one talking about comparables, comparables are used in RFA negotiations, UFA's/expiring RFA's/elite players are a totally different story.

I'm sure comparable players are used in all types of negotiations. That they are not the one and only factor in setting every single cap hit, regardless of term, timing, and situation, is a far cry from meaning "dick" though.