Zetterberg's status in 2 years. MOD WARNING PAGE 6

[FireCaptain 563]

By now you've all read the article where Z basically admits the contract he signed was a sham to circumvent the cap. 

Option A) Of course, if he retires, the Wings get stuck with 2 years of the recapture penalty at around $5.5M/year. 

Option B) If he suffers another back injury, they could 'Pronger' him to LTIR and bury that cap hit like Frazen. I would say this is a BIG "IF" right now since he flat out admitted that everyone involved lied/cheated/stole when it came to fitting this contract in the salary cap. An attempt at LTIR would surely be met with INTENSE scrutiny.

No one mentions Option C) BUY OUT. If he's bought out, the Wings can spread the cap hit over 4 years at 2/3s the cost. 

Disregard this.. As I was researching the content for this post, I learned of the F'd up formula used to calculate the actual buy out payroll and the buy out cap hit.. (Buy out cap hit - explained HERE)

Numbers and stuff:

• Henrik Zetterberg is 38 years old at the date of the buyout
• Salary remaining: $2,000,000
• The buyout ratio is 2/3, which results in a total buyout cost of $1,333,333
• There are 2 years remaining on this contract
• The buyout will be spread out over 4 years
• The annual buyout cost is $333,333
• The buyout cap hit is displayed in the far right column

SEASON	SALARY	INITIAL CAP HIT	ACTUAL COST	SAVINGS	BUYOUT CAP HIT
2019-20	$1,000,000	$6,083,333	$333,333	$666,667	$5,416,666
2020-21	$1,000,000	$6,083,333	$333,333	$666,667	$5,416,666
2021-22	$0	$0	$333,333	-$333,333	$333,333
2022-23	$0	$0	$333,333	-$333,333	$333,333

 

Wait, there's more: How about Option D) He can be loaned to a team in another league. (SEL, anyone?) Completely legal in regards to the cap and saves us minimum salary + $375K against the cap. So, $650,000 (minimum) + $375,000 - $6,083,333 = $5,076,333 as a cap hit. A meager savings, but a savings nonetheless.

OK, feel free to pick this apart and let me know what I may have misinterpreted. 

 

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2017/08/21/report-wings-zetterberg-likely-play-seasons/104808640/

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

LTIR. If Hossa can be allergic to the end of long front-loaded contracts, so can Zetterberg.

[kickazz 5,459]

20 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

LTIR. If Hossa can be allergic to the end of long front-loaded contracts, so can Zetterberg.

Might be a problem since Z called out the contract and wanting to leave 2 years ahead of time. They have evidence on him. 

Also he should at least try to hit 1000 points. I mean I guess he technically could if he put up average of 48 points in the next two seasons... 

Edited August 23, 2017 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

6 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

LTIR. If Hossa can be allergic to the end of long front-loaded contracts, so can Zetterberg.

This would obviously be the best for both sides, as I'm sure Zetterberg wouldn't want to screw over the team he captained for 6 seasons. 

6 hours ago, kickazz said:

Might be a problem since Z called out the contract and wanting to leave 2 years ahead of time. They have evidence on him. 

Also he should at least try to hit 1000 points. I mean I guess he technically could if he put up average of 48 points in the next two seasons... 

I don't see LTIR being an issue in the next two seasons for a player with previous back issues. Even if he told Gary Bettman himself that he wasn't likely to finish out his contract, or that they signed such a long contract to "fool the system" (every team was doing it, which is why the cap recapture penalty was implemented). They wouldn't be able to force him to play, nor would they be able to prove his back is fit enough to go to work every day.

But yeah, if it did come down to it and for whatever reason we couldn't place him on LTIR, the buyout would obviously be the best solution. 1/3 of a $M for 4 seasons is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

I think he'll hit 1000 points in the next two seasons. 55-60 this season and 40-45 the following season.

[kickazz 5,459]

The circumstantial evidence is just highly stacking up against Zetterberg. The doctors cleared him to play years ago (almost 4 years ago). Not to mention Z has only missed like 5 games in the last 3 seasons. I don't see how a doctor would all of a sudden say "no he can't play anymore, we take it back". Doctors face legal ramifications for lying about patients health. And a herniated disc that was fixed a long time ago isn't a reason to not play anymore. 

Hossa and Z may single handedly screw over the next CBA and LTIR rules. But mostly Hossa. 

But maybe that's good because I'm personally sick of the way these long term contracts have been going. 

Edited August 23, 2017 by kickazz

[toby91_ca 620]

I think there is even a bigger issue with the LTIR route.  I could be totally wrong here, but here's what I assume happens.  When a player retires with term left on their contract, they no longer get paid, they've retired.  As everyone is aware, such a situation comes with cap implications for the team (not cash requirements) which are dependent on the specific situation.

Player contracts are insured (nature of which will differ, again depending on specific circumstances).  So, if a player has 2 years left on their contract, but is unable to play due to injury, they'd be put on LTIR and still collect salary (but not from team, from insurance company).  The same points made above are valid in terms of the league being super suspicious here, but there's no way he goes on LTIR and gets paid via insurance unless he's legit unable to play.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

34 minutes ago, kickazz said:

The circumstantial evidence is just highly stacking up against Zetterberg. The doctors cleared him to play years ago (almost 4 years ago). Not to mention Z has only missed like 5 games in the last 3 seasons. I don't see how a doctor would all of a sudden say "no he can't play anymore, we take it back". Doctors face legal ramifications for lying about patients health. And a herniated disc that was fixed a long time ago isn't a reason to not play anymore. 

Hossa and Z may single handedly screw over the next CBA and LTIR rules. But mostly Hossa. 

But maybe that's good because I'm personally sick of the way these long term contracts have been going. 

it wasn't the players, it was the GMs who gave them the deals.  And I would have done the same thing.  Under the rules at the time, it was a legit strategy.  Buttman and the owners who were butthurt about teams doing that forced the retroactive BS penalty.

[krsmith17 7,191]

19 minutes ago, kickazz said:

The circumstantial evidence is just highly stacking up against Zetterberg. The doctors cleared him to play years ago (almost 4 years ago). Not to mention Z has only missed like 5 games in the last 3 seasons. I don't see how a doctor would all of a sudden say "no he can't play anymore, we take it back". Doctors face legal ramifications for lying about patients health. And a herniated disc that was fixed a long time ago isn't a reason to not play anymore. 

Hossa and Z may single handedly screw over the next CBA and LTIR rules. But mostly Hossa. 

But maybe that's good because I'm personally sick of the way these long term contracts have been going. 

Zetterberg has been a warrior these past few seasons and has barely missed any time to injury. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that because he is fully healthy today, he will be two years from now. It's very possibly that his back could flare up again at some point. I'm not really sure what you mean by the doctors saying "no he can't play anymore, we take it back". What would they be taking back? Just because they cleared him to play 3 1/2 years ago, doesn't mean they cleared him to play out the entirety of his contract. I don't think anyone is suggesting the doctors would make something up, although I think they could, but rather that in two years time, at the age of 38, it's possible he could have an issue with his back again or some other unrelated injury by that time.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

If Zetterberg says his back hurts too much and a couple doctors back him up, I don't know how the league can argue it.  Medical experts vs. "we don't believe it?"

[LeftWinger 4,936]

Just retire now.  Sign AA, no problem.

 

IMO if Z retires now, so should Kronner and E. That would open up a ton of cap. Kronner and E are not on one of those weird cap circumvention contracts, $9M saved there.

[kickazz 5,459]

You guys are missing my point. I'm saying assuming he's not actually hurting to the point where he can't play and assuming his back is anatomically no different than it was 3 years ago. Meaning two years from now he's still the same Zetterberg health wise as he is today. 

Of course if something actually happens in 2 years then yeah he legitimately is done. But that's not what I'm getting at. I wouldn't be shocked if the owners went as far as asking doctors what's different now than it was 2-3 years ago. Ultimately Z might get the LTIR but I'm sure it will come with heavy scrutiny and the NHL will probably investigate it before they allow it. 

43 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Just retire now.  Sign AA, no problem.

 

IMO if Z retires now, so should Kronner and E. That would open up a ton of cap. Kronner and E are not on one of those weird cap circumvention contracts, $9M saved there.

Dude it's not happening lets not even get into this. Lets talk about future options. 

Edited August 23, 2017 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

46 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

it wasn't the players, it was the GMs who gave them the deals.  And I would have done the same thing.  Under the rules at the time, it was a legit strategy.  Buttman and the owners who were butthurt about teams doing that forced the retroactive BS penalty.

With the next CBA I assume it will get even more stringent. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

22 minutes ago, kickazz said:

You guys are missing my point. I'm saying assuming he's not actually hurting to the point where he can't play and assuming his back is anatomically no different than it was 3 years ago. Meaning two years from now he's still the same Zetterberg health wise as he is today. 

Of course if something actually happens in 2 years then yeah he legitimately is done. But that's not what I'm getting at. I wouldn't be shocked if the owners went as far as asking doctors what's different now than it was 2-3 years ago. Ultimately Z might get the LTIR but I'm sure it will come with heavy scrutiny and the NHL will probably investigate it before they allow it.. 

A lot can change in 2-3 years to a person's health, even the regular Joe, but even more so to a professional athlete. There's no way the league would say to doctors, "well he was healthy back then, what changed?" It may come with scrutiny, but look at Hossa. If he can develop an allergy to his equipment, I'm sure Z can find something to warrant LTIR. I'm sure the NHL investigates every LTIR case, so there's no difference there.

I'm not too worried.

1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

Just retire now.  Sign AA, no problem.

IMO if Z retires now, so should Kronner and E. That would open up a ton of cap. Kronner and E are not on one of those weird cap circumvention contracts, $9M saved there.

Yeah, let's just hope our best player and captain up and retires so we can sign Athanasiou... Surely there isn't any better way to get under the cap...

[kickazz 5,459]

It is interesting that Z wants to leave as soon as Kronwall's contract is up 

Don't blame him. First losing Datsyuk then losing Kronwall. Losing old teammates does suck. 

Edited August 23, 2017 by kickazz

[LeftWinger 4,936]

Well at the very least, will be rid of a TON of cap in two years...I know others will be making more, but we'll also be rid of the old guard. Z, Kronn, E (buyout) Howard...it will be a wonderful day.

 

although, I do wish Z would honor and complete his contract. The others can go....

But anyhow, again, AA must not be allowed to go. If he goes, Holland MUST be fired! Hey, Kenny, 2008 called, Helm, Kronwall, E, Abby, Howard are not returning to this form of themselves.  Move on.

Holland has overpaid too many mediocre players! When Helm said he had other offers, goodbye! This pisses me off.

I am ashamed of what he turned this team into....the highest paid team in the league and will not make the playoffs again.  He screws up the first top 10 pick in 25 years This reeks of taking Primeau over Jagr. Because we need a sizeable center, not a high scoring elite WInger. It stunk then and it stinks now.

We need to get a petition to Chris Ilitch...fire him or lose your fanbase.

Edited August 23, 2017 by LeftWinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

Hey @LeftWinger, remember that time you made a joke referencing players returning to 2008 form?...

I wasn't a fan of the Rasmussen pick either, but to call it a bust or screw up this early is a bit premature, don't ya think? Regardless, we should have taken Vilardi, not Tippett. I think Vilardi would have been the safest pick, as well as the highest ceiling. Both Rasmussen and Tippett could boom or bust. I'll agree that Tippett may have the higher chance of booming, but the potential he busts is still there.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

8 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

although, I do wish Z would honor and complete his contract. The others can go....

 

The odds of Zetterberg playin the last couple years of that deal were about the same as the odds of Mary Swanson marrying Lloyd Christmas

[kliq 3,755]

1 minute ago, DickieDunn said:

The odds of Zetterberg playin the last couple years of that deal were about the same as the odds of Mary Swanson marrying Lloyd Christmas

So you're saying there is a chance!!!!

[Juklitz 85]

I´d go with ltir if Holland was able to manage reliefs reasonable way, not ´hey, we´ve got space for some crapy UFA!´, same way how Franzen´s relief is working couple last years.

Btw it´s the reason why I´d prefer to trade Franzen first - LTIR isn´t actually off the books, it´s relief-able, but costs that much needed flexibility. We can´t realy trade-up picks with taking some crapy contract.

At the end of the day, I guess it doesn´t even matter. We´re going to suffer the cap hell till the end of 20/21 season when Helm, Glend, Hank and Weiss are going off the books. Maybe we can try to trade his contract during 19/20 post-season, depends on how AA/Larkin/Mantha contracts will be. 

[LeftWinger 4,936]

Sounds like i have a few years to not watch this team and hopefully rediscover my passion for it. I've never felt so jaded about this team in my life and that includes the late 80's early 90's. Then, at least you felt they were building something. Now there's too much hanging on to the past and not enough creativity to better our future. Right now I don't feel any positivity towards the direction Holland has taken and is taking this team. I feel no excitement. When it seems that we are losing one of our only bright spots on the team because of total mismanagment and way overpaid players like Helm, it makes you not even care anymore. 

[PavelDatsyukOD13 3]

Is there any reason to believe Arizona/another budget team would not take on zetterbergs cap hit so he can retire there? This would take up ~5 million towards their cap floor without them having to pay a dollar unless I am missing something. Am I missing something? I feel like I would have saw this suggested so I must be missing something 

I think maybe I'm confusing the cap recapture penalty with the penalty for signing 35+ players who do not fulfill the duration of the contract. They probably give the recapture penalty to Detroit for signing the contract regardless if we trade him prior to retirement. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by PavelDatsyukOD13
Budget team*

[Buppy 1,720]

1 hour ago, PavelDatsyukOD13 said:

Is there any reason to believe Arizona/another budget team would not take on zetterbergs cap hit so he can retire there? This would take up ~5 million towards their cap floor without them having to pay a dollar unless I am missing something. Am I missing something? I feel like I would have saw this suggested so I must be missing something 

I think maybe I'm confusing the cap recapture penalty with the penalty for signing 35+ players who do not fulfill the duration of the contract. They probably give the recapture penalty to Detroit for signing the contract regardless if we trade him prior to retirement. 

Yes, cap recapture penalty is applied to the team or teams that benefited from a lower cap hit, even if the player has since been traded. 

[LeftWinger 4,936]

But then I see stuff like this and hope and pray we get this team going now instead of later! Sign AA, deal with the cap later....come on Holland!

 

 

[joesuffP 1,746]

Some people like their team win or lose. This place has become unbearable with the needless whining about irrelevant stuff just for the sake of complaining. Not everything that enters your brain needs to be shared. I've had to avoid this site altogether because their is absolutely no insightful conversation. Complaining about a cap hit we (likely won't) be stuck with for two years after Holland got great value for 6+ years (with a Stanley cup and Conn Smythe) is just another example of talking for no real reason

Edited August 25, 2017 by joesuffP

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 hours ago, joesuffP said:

Some people like their team win or lose. This place has become unbearable with the needless whining about irrelevant stuff just for the sake of complaining. Not everything that enters your brain needs to be shared. I've had to avoid this site altogether because their is absolutely no insightful conversation. Complaining about a cap hit we (likely won't) be stuck with for two years after Holland got great value for 6+ years (with a Stanley cup and Conn Smythe) is just another example of talking for no real reason

Lets make LGW great again. The constant whiners must go.