Which player(s) would you trade?

[kickazz 5,459]

6 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Ummm what? You think all of Mrazek, Nyquist, Tatar, Green, Athanasiou, Sheahan, Sproul, Jensen and Ouellet suck???

What's wrong with wanting to trade Ericsson and Nielsen?...

Well, I guess compared to the old Wings standard they do. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

10 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Well, I guess compared to the old Wings standard they do. 

Why would anyone have "old Wings standards" with this team?

[Cry_Havoc 5]

So, the problem is you guys are thinking about STARTERS. First let me start by saying that my comments are within the context of the following goals:

1. Signing AA

2. Setting us up for future success

So, who would I unload? I would start by unloading the following PROSPECTS/non-starters to free up space and maybe pickup some later round picks: McCollum, Street, Lashoff, Tangradi

We picked these guys up when we were bulking up on late round picks thinking we could polish em up. They haven't worked out. These 4 drops frees up 2.5 mil, and could win us a few picks that might not even be that far down. That freed up cap space, in conjunction with the yearly LTIR of Franzen allows us to sign AA at a 2 year, 2 mil contract. 2 year because he won't want to sign long term until he's proven his potential, and we won't want to strap him to our back until we're absolutely sure he doesn't have attitude problems.

Guys I give one year to prove themselves; these are the guys on the chopping block because of age: Lorito, Turner, Elson, McIlrath, Russo.

Bottom line: we can sign AA without having to kill ourselves over the NMC/NTCs that are out there.

HOWEVER... if we're really talking about trading a starter, I would trade:

1. Glendening. When you do a depth chart based on balanced lines of: 2 scoring lines, a grind line and a development line... Glendening is the odd-man out, and you can get a decent trade for him right away to any team looking for a 2-way forward with a never-say-die attitude. (CAP HIT: 1.8 mil)

2. Mrazek. Except I wouldn't trade him right away; nobody wants him right now because his play fell off so much. I would let him play, let him prove himself worthy of his contract... and THEN trade him. We could get a first round pick out of him if he started playing at top form again, or even close to it. I think he'll get there, and there's a few teams looking for a goalie. (CAP HIT: 4 mil)

These two releases and the leftover .5 mil from the other trades gives you enough room to not only sign AA this year, but also re-sign Larkin and Mantha next year (Sheahan is RFA next year too, but has proven himself a grinder at best, so his pay would either drop or he would walk... and we have prospects that are ready to replace him).

 

[Cry_Havoc 5]

And to clarify, many of you are calling for the Wings to Trade guys that have NMC/NTCs. This is what we're dealing with this year according to CapFriendly.com:

No Trade Clause with no exceptions or Modifications: Nyquist, Abdelkader, Helm, Green, DeKeyser, Ericsson, Daley.

Modified No Trade Clause (meaning the players can place restrictions on who they get traded to): Kronwall, Nielsen

So, trading guys with an NMC/NTC means we would have to buy them out if they don't waive their rights, which is costly and comes with a Cap hit BEYOND THEIR CONTRACT.

[BinMucker94 302]

34 minutes ago, Cry_Havoc said:

So, the problem is you guys are thinking about STARTERS. First let me start by saying that my comments are within the context of the following goals:

1. Signing AA

2. Setting us up for future success

So, who would I unload? I would start by unloading the following PROSPECTS/non-starters to free up space and maybe pickup some later round picks: McCollum, Street, Lashoff, Tangradi

We picked these guys up when we were bulking up on late round picks thinking we could polish em up. They haven't worked out. These 4 drops frees up 2.5 mil, and could win us a few picks that might not even be that far down. That freed up cap space, in conjunction with the yearly LTIR of Franzen allows us to sign AA at a 2 year, 2 mil contract. 2 year because he won't want to sign long term until he's proven his potential, and we won't want to strap him to our back until we're absolutely sure he doesn't have attitude problems.

Guys I give one year to prove themselves; these are the guys on the chopping block because of age: Lorito, Turner, Elson, McIlrath, Russo.

Bottom line: we can sign AA without having to kill ourselves over the NMC/NTCs that are out there.

HOWEVER... if we're really talking about trading a starter, I would trade:

1. Glendening. When you do a depth chart based on balanced lines of: 2 scoring lines, a grind line and a development line... Glendening is the odd-man out, and you can get a decent trade for him right away to any team looking for a 2-way forward with a never-say-die attitude. (CAP HIT: 1.8 mil)

2. Mrazek. Except I wouldn't trade him right away; nobody wants him right now because his play fell off so much. I would let him play, let him prove himself worthy of his contract... and THEN trade him. We could get a first round pick out of him if he started playing at top form again, or even close to it. I think he'll get there, and there's a few teams looking for a goalie. (CAP HIT: 4 mil)

These two releases and the leftover .5 mil from the other trades gives you enough room to not only sign AA this year, but also re-sign Larkin and Mantha next year (Sheahan is RFA next year too, but has proven himself a grinder at best, so his pay would either drop or he would walk... and we have prospects that are ready to replace him).

 

I might be wrong but I don't think that any of those 9 AHL players you listed in the first 2 paragraphs count against the cap unless they get called up to the NHL. So moving them would do nothing for helping the cap issue.

Plus all those NMC/NTC just show you how horrible management has been over the past few years. Holland has been passing out NMC/NTC like candy on Halloween

Edited August 25, 2017 by BinMucker94

[Cry_Havoc 5]

48 minutes ago, BinMucker94 said:

I might be wrong but I don't think that any of those 9 AHL players you listed in the first 2 paragraphs count against the cap unless they get called up to the NHL. So moving them would do nothing for helping the cap issue.

Plus all those NMC/NTC just show you how horrible management has been over the past few years. Holland has been passing out NMC/NTC like candy on Halloween

Ew, you're right, I'm dumb. I'll keep my Glendening and Mrazek comments though. If they can't move Mrazek right away then they're in the position where they have to move BOTH Sheahan AND Glendening. Which means we have no grind line...

Good lord, we don't lose the Weiss contract buyout until 2021.

[Cry_Havoc 5]

6 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I would trade almost all our players.

Unhelpful comment... is unhelpful.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

10 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Ummm what? You think all of Mrazek, Nyquist, Tatar, Green, Athanasiou, Sheahan, Sproul, Jensen and Ouellet suck???

What's wrong with wanting to trade Ericsson and Nielsen?...

None of them are pillars on this team. Theyre all expendable.

Nielsen and Ericssons contracts have negative value on the open market. You can want to trade them all day, but its not realistic in the slightest.

So a trade thread just becomes a pointless "i dont like those contracts" circle jerk. We should be talking about actual tradeable pieces like the ones I listed

[kliq 3,755]

2 hours ago, Cry_Havoc said:

Ew, you're right, I'm dumb. I'll keep my Glendening and Mrazek comments though. If they can't move Mrazek right away then they're in the position where they have to move BOTH Sheahan AND Glendening. Which means we have no grind line...

Good lord, we don't lose the Weiss contract buyout until 2021.

This is why I hate buy-outs so much. It may help in the short term, but it literally doubles the term of the contract. This is why I would prefer trading a guy like E and retaining cap over buying him out.

[Richdg 267]

No GM is going to trade for Kronwall, E, I doubt nielsson, etc.... Yes we could move a greean at the deadline, but that doesn't help our cap now and help with resigning AA.

Back to Nyquist. he doesn't suck and I never have said that. I said he is a 3rd line winger. Now here is the bigger question with Nyquist, what do we do with him 2 years from now? He will be a UFA. He will be 29 and currently has a 4.75 mil cap hit. By then Larkin, Mantha, Svechnikov, AA, Rasmussen, Tatar, Nielsson, and maybe even a Smith could all be ahead of him. Plus 2 more drafts, trades, UFA's-can always hope, young guys develop. Point is do we keep Nyquist at 5.5-6 mil for a 3rd line winger? Do we let him walk? Do we move him when he has value? We should move him. He has some value and his production is replaceable. He is also trending downward and disappears in the PO's. The last 3 seasons his goals were 27, 17, 12 in order. In his 28 playoff games with the RW's he has 3 goals. That is terrible. Tatar the last 3 years has scored 29, 21, 25. For his career in the PO's tatar has played 17 games and scored 3 goals. Still not very good. But in terms of scoring Tatar is the better player. Their cap hit is .5 million per year difference.

Now carry things through for a minute. We keep Nyquist. AA signs with a KHL team for a year or 2 because we are cap tight. We keep the guy that scored 12 goals, lose the guy that scored 18 goals, and add nothing.

Now lets try it another way. We move Nyquist for a pick. We free up 4.75 mil in cap. We resign AA and add another young F from GR like Svechnikov-who may/may not be ready. But should add 12-15 goals over the course of a full year. AA and Geno should only cost 3 mil or so we have a little cap space left over and we added a 3rd round pick.

Which makes more sense?

[kickazz 5,459]

Except he's not a third line Winger so the rest of your post is pointless to read.

Moving on..

[krsmith17 7,191]

51 minutes ago, Richdg said:

No GM is going to trade for Kronwall, E, I doubt nielsson, etc.... Yes we could move a greean at the deadline, but that doesn't help our cap now and help with resigning AA.

Back to Nyquist. he doesn't suck and I never have said that. I said he is a 3rd line winger. Now here is the bigger question with Nyquist, what do we do with him 2 years from now? He will be a UFA. He will be 29 and currently has a 4.75 mil cap hit. By then Larkin, Mantha, Svechnikov, AA, Rasmussen, Tatar, Nielsson, and maybe even a Smith could all be ahead of him. Plus 2 more drafts, trades, UFA's-can always hope, young guys develop. Point is do we keep Nyquist at 5.5-6 mil for a 3rd line winger? Do we let him walk? Do we move him when he has value? We should move him. He has some value and his production is replaceable. He is also trending downward and disappears in the PO's. The last 3 seasons his goals were 27, 17, 12 in order. In his 28 playoff games with the RW's he has 3 goals. That is terrible. Tatar the last 3 years has scored 29, 21, 25. For his career in the PO's tatar has played 17 games and scored 3 goals. Still not very good. But in terms of scoring Tatar is the better player. Their cap hit is .5 million per year difference.

Now carry things through for a minute. We keep Nyquist. AA signs with a KHL team for a year or 2 because we are cap tight. We keep the guy that scored 12 goals, lose the guy that scored 18 goals, and add nothing.

Now lets try it another way. We move Nyquist for a pick. We free up 4.75 mil in cap. We resign AA and add another young F from GR like Svechnikov-who may/may not be ready. But should add 12-15 goals over the course of a full year. AA and Geno should only cost 3 mil or so we have a little cap space left over and we added a 3rd round pick.

Which makes more sense?

Again, Nyquist is a legit top 6 (borderline top line) winger. Why do you only count goals? Why not points? Because it fuels your argument that Nyquist is a bottom 6 winger. He's not, and only you and LeftWinger would put in such a ridiculous claim.

It's so crazy that people continue to spew the same old s*** about Ericsson and whoever else being untradeable. There are no untradeable players. It doesn't exist.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Untradeable means "we'd have to give up too many assets to convince at team to take the crap deal as well to be worth it," or "his value is so low right now we're better holding on to him in hopes that it increases and trade him later."

Do you really want to send a 2nd or 3rd rounder with Ericsson and get back a 4th rounder just to move him?  I'd rather not.  I'd move Sheahan, sign AA, and do what I can to fill out the roster from there.  If that means sending 2 or 3 guys down and replacing them with guys making $6-700k to clear a little bit at a time, so be it.

 

But I still say if Holland gives Ericsson the option of "retiring" to play in Sweden with his brother or playing in GR, he'll retire.  That saves more than enough cap.

[krsmith17 7,191]

7 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Untradeable means "we'd have to give up too many assets to convince at team to take the crap deal as well to be worth it," or "his value is so low right now we're better holding on to him in hopes that it increases and trade him later."

Do you really want to send a 2nd or 3rd rounder with Ericsson and get back a 4th rounder just to move him?  I'd rather not.  I'd move Sheahan, sign AA, and do what I can to fill out the roster from there.  If that means sending 2 or 3 guys down and replacing them with guys making $6-700k to clear a little bit at a time, so be it.

But I still say if Holland gives Ericsson the option of "retiring" to play in Sweden with his brother or playing in GR, he'll retire.  That saves more than enough cap.

I disagree, but which players are "untradeable" to you?

Again, if David Clarkson ($5.25M with 5 years remaining) can get traded, what makes Jonathan Ericsson ($4.25M (less if we retain salary) with 3 years remaining) untradeable? Or any player on this roster for that matter. There are always deals that can be made, Holland is just incapable of making them...

Yes, I would send a team our 3rd (maybe not 2nd) for their 4th to get rid of Ericsson in a heartbeat. But like I pointed out with the Polak trade, it probably wouldn't take that much if we were willing to retain salary.

[LoveMyRedWings56 73]

16 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I would trade almost all our players.

Larkin and Mantha no way unless we received a #1 D man and that's not happening.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I disagree, but which players are "untradeable" to you?

Again, if David Clarkson ($5.25M with 5 years remaining) can get traded, what makes Jonathan Ericsson ($4.25M (less if we retain salary) with 3 years remaining) untradeable? Or any player on this roster for that matter. There are always deals that can be made, Holland is just incapable of making them...

Yes, I would send a team our 3rd (maybe not 2nd) for their 4th to get rid of Ericsson in a heartbeat. But like I pointed out with the Polak trade, it probably wouldn't take that much if we were willing to retain salary.

Clarkson was traded for a dead contract that the Leafs cold stick on LTIR,clearing some cap space for them, while the BJs, a budget team, would rather overpay a guy and get at least some production instead of paying a guy to not play.  It was the perfect situation to happen.  With Franzen on the books, Detroit can't take on another dead contract like that.

Why pay a team to take the bad contract if it's not necessary?  

[DickieDunn 2,571]

On 8/25/2017 at 3:07 PM, Cry_Havoc said:

And to clarify, many of you are calling for the Wings to Trade guys that have NMC/NTCs. This is what we're dealing with this year according to CapFriendly.com:

No Trade Clause with no exceptions or Modifications: Nyquist, Abdelkader, Helm, Green, DeKeyser, Ericsson, Daley.

Modified No Trade Clause (meaning the players can place restrictions on who they get traded to): Kronwall, Nielsen

So, trading guys with an NMC/NTC means we would have to buy them out if they don't waive their rights, which is costly and comes with a Cap hit BEYOND THEIR CONTRACT.

um, no.  Team asks the player to waive it.  If they do, they get traded.  If not, they don't/  There's no buying them out

[Richdg 267]

Smith again you didn't answer my questions. 1. Do we resign Nyquist in 2 years when it will cost us 5.5 to 6 mil in cap space to do so? If not move him. 2. Why move a bad contract to retain salary? Lets say we move E but have to keep 3 mill of the cap hit. You have to replace him on the roster with a player at the Dman position so at min that .75 mil in cap. That only freed up 1 mil to resign AA, not enough. We didn't gain anything. It will take 2.5 mil + to resign AA. Then next year we have the same problem with the next batch of young players needing new contracts.

Yes Holland screwed up. But we need to find a way out without loosing our good young talent.

As for Nyquist he just isn't that good. Once the league saw is game and it adjusted. He has struggled since. He spends more time lying on the ice than skating on it. Yes he has a role as a secondary scorer on a good line. He is not good enough to carry a line. he is worth a pick and that gives us more assets.

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, Richdg said:

As for Nyquist he just isn't that good. Once the league saw is game and it adjusted. He has struggled since. He spends more time lying on the ice than skating on it. Yes he has a role as a secondary scorer on a good line. He is not good enough to carry a line. he is worth a pick and that gives us more assets.

Scored the second highest points on our team last year after Zetterberg. With only 76 games played unlike Tatar or Neilsen who both played all 82 games. 

If Nyquist isn't "that good" then everyone else below him on that stat sheet is trash. 

1 hour ago, Richdg said:

SOnce the league saw is game and it adjusted. He has struggled since. He spends more time lying on the ice than skating on it.

Talking out of ass to the next level. Nyquist is actually one of our best 5 on 5 players. The reason his "goals" have dipped is because our PP sucks and so does our PP coaching. But even strength wise he's really good. People are dumb enough to actually use his 13/14 season as a benchmark. That season was one of the most flukiest things in NHL and near impossible to achieve for anyone. If you look at a larger sample size excluding that outlier of a season.. 

This was at the midway point of last season: 

"Nyquist has actually increased his 5v5 points/60 from last season and is now a full 0.70 points/60 higher than his 2014-2015 season. Looking at the league leaderboard, Nyquist is 44th in 5v5 points/60, tied with Auston Matthews among all forwards with >250 minutes played at 5v5"

Season	5v5 TOI/GP	5v5 Goals/60	5v5 Assists/60	5v5 Points/60
2014-2015	12:27	0.65	0.82	1.47
2015-2016	11:27	0.51	1.28	1.79
2016-2017	12:51	0.67	1.50	2.17

 

 

"Nyquist is averaging 1.90 5v5 points/60 which is 66th among NHL forwards with >500 minutes played over the past season and a half. That's the best mark of any player on Detroit (>500 minutes played)."

 

Player	Games Played	5v5 Points/60 minutes
Gustav Nyquist	110	1.90
Dylan Larkin	108	1.86
Tomas Tatar	109	1.62
Darren Helm	94	1.40
Henrik Zetterberg	110	1.37
Justin Abdelkader	104	1.35
Pavel Datsyuk	66	1.34
Luke Glendening	109	1.14
Riley Sheahan	109	1.13
Brad Richards	68	0.84

https://www.wingingitinmotown.com/2016/12/12/13911624/defending-gustav-nyquist-again

 

So yeah you keep Nyquist. It would be stupid not to seeing as how he's one of our best producers. 

Edited August 26, 2017 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Nyquist and Tatar aren't even close to the top of the list of problems the Wings have.  I'm not sure why so many people complain about them.  Is it just because people thought they were going to be studs, and now that they're not, people think they suck?  Or is it some misplaced idea that you can get guys who can consistently score in the 45 point range for $3 mil a year?

[kickazz 5,459]

33 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

Nyquist and Tatar aren't even close to the top of the list of problems the Wings have.  I'm not sure why so many people complain about them.  Is it just because people thought they were going to be studs, and now that they're not, people think they suck?  Or is it some misplaced idea that you can get guys who can consistently score in the 45 point range for $3 mil a year?

It's both.

[Buppy 1,720]

5 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Nyquist and Tatar aren't even close to the top of the list of problems the Wings have.  I'm not sure why so many people complain about them.  Is it just because people thought they were going to be studs, and now that they're not, people think they suck?  Or is it some misplaced idea that you can get guys who can consistently score in the 45 point range for $3 mil a year?

Pretty sure it's only Rich and LW. Everyone else is just willing to trade them for a top pair D, not just get rid of them. That said, Rich does kind of have a point. Maybe arrived there on accident for all the wrong reasons, but a point nonetheless. 

Nyquist is one of our better trade assets. Best I think, outside of Larkin, Mantha, and maybe AA. Free up some cap space, plus get a nice return like a high pick or good D prospect...certainly an option worth consideration. Depending on how the rebuild progresses, we may not want him back once his contract is up, or he may want to leave himself. Trade him for Haydn Fluery, sign AA and Vanek @ ~$2.5M each, call up Bertuzzi...Probably no worse short-term, and potentially better long-term.

[kickazz 5,459]

Nyquist at this point could probably get us a top D prospect. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

15 hours ago, Richdg said:

Smith again you didn't answer my questions. 1. Do we resign Nyquist in 2 years when it will cost us 5.5 to 6 mil in cap space to do so? If not move him. 2. Why move a bad contract to retain salary? Lets say we move E but have to keep 3 mill of the cap hit. You have to replace him on the roster with a player at the Dman position so at min that .75 mil in cap. That only freed up 1 mil to resign AA, not enough. We didn't gain anything. It will take 2.5 mil + to resign AA. Then next year we have the same problem with the next batch of young players needing new contracts.

Yes Holland screwed up. But we need to find a way out without loosing our good young talent.

As for Nyquist he just isn't that good. Once the league saw is game and it adjusted. He has struggled since. He spends more time lying on the ice than skating on it. Yes he has a role as a secondary scorer on a good line. He is not good enough to carry a line. he is worth a pick and that gives us more assets.

Yes, we should re-sign Nyquist when his contract is up, unless he's traded for help on the back end. I don't know how many times I have to explain why I'd move a bad contract. We wouldn't retain $3M of Ericsson's contract. The most we could retain is $2.125M (50%), and I don't even think that much would be necessary. We wouldn't be replacing him on the roster because we have 8 defensemen on the roster. Trading Ericsson would free up cap space and free up a roster spot for a younger player.

Keep saying that Nyquist isn't good, or he sucks, or he's a bottom 6 winger, it's not going to make it true. As kickazz and I have proven with stats, he's a very good top 6 winger. Where are the stats that say he's a bottom 6 winger?

[krsmith17 7,191]

5 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

These are good facts.

Question - how many Nyquist/Tatar/Pulks/Jurco type guys can a team play in the 12 man roster and be successful?

I dont know.

Well since Nyquist / Tatar aren't at all similar to former Red Wings Pulkkinen / Jurco, that question makes no sense.

How many Larkin/Athanasiou/Cleary/Andersson type guys can a team play in the 12 man roster (beer league roster?) to be successful?