Pierre McGuire on Wings-Tavares

[Dabura 12,206]

10 minutes ago, AtlantaHotWings said:

who says the GM doing the bidding for Detroit will be Holland?

Holland.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

3 hours ago, kliq said:

I guess it all depends on the development of our players. Throw in JT and our forwards look ALOT better especially if our kids get better. Then Z drops down to second line and we have a very good top 6.

I'm not saying we couldn't be a contender if all our stars aligned: we get JT, draft Dahlin, and key kids (Larkin, Mantha, AA, Mrazek, Cholowski?, Svech?) all take huge steps this year. Just, if JT is looking to to win a cup in a year or 2, I doubt that Red WIngs would anywhere near his top list of sure things.

I think the more likely line of thinking that would bring him here would be, as Pierre says, that he'd have center stage here. The only problem with that is whether he'd want to be the captain and ultimate leader of whatever team he plays for. Z is rightfully that guy for as long as he keeps playing. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[ShanahanMan 473]

Would never happen. Holland only signs guys in the twilight of their career and Tavares would never want to come to such a mismanaged team (even more than the Isles).

Edited September 22, 2017 by ShanahanMan

[LeftWinger 4,936]

Whether or not Holland is GM, either one would go balls out for Tavares. One of Mrazek or Howard will not be here. Green's $6M will be off the books, Kronwall will be retired and it will finally be the year Ericsson gets bought out, ESPECIALLY is Tavares is signed. Yes, having a top 3 pick will be nice to add, but I'm just imagining a line of Nyquist/Tatar - Tavares - AA.  NICE! Maybe even One of Nyquist/Tatar will be dealt at the deadline.

Green for a 1st, Tatar/Nyquist for a 1st and a top 3? Yes, that would entice Tavares I'd imagine.

[LeftWinger 4,936]

Whether they were linemates or not, they were teammates for years, Nielsen will do everything in his power to convince him to come here. I'm sure Tavares values his opinion very much.

[kliq 3,755]

3 hours ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

I'm not saying we couldn't be a contender if all our stars aligned: we get JT, draft Dahlin, and key kids (Larkin, Mantha, AA, Mrazek, Cholowski?, Svech?) all take huge steps this year. Just, if JT is looking to to win a cup in a year or 2, I doubt that Red WIngs would anywhere near his top list of sure things.

I think the more likely line of thinking that would bring him here would be, as Pierre says, that he'd have center stage here. The only problem with that is whether he'd want to be the captain and ultimate leader of whatever team he plays for. Z is rightfully that guy for as long as he keeps playing. 

I agree with all of this. JT coming here would be in some ways similar to Babs going to TO. It's an opportunity to help turn something around and by doing it cementing your legacy.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

6 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Whether they were linemates or not, they were teammates for years, Nielsen will do everything in his power to convince him to come here. I'm sure Tavares values his opinion very much.

Holland loses Datsyuk and knows he needs a new superstar. Goes hard after Stamkos, but is unable to lure him out of Tampa Bay. Plan B: Give fat contract to the best friend of the next superstar that is going to hit the market. Frans Nielsen (thus applying a valuable lesson learned from the Parise/Suter BFF debacle). Fast forward to Tavares UFA year and Nielsen manages to be key in luring the superstar to Detroit. 

Holland has been playing 4D chess the entire time. We are not worthy.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

He could do it. Question is what assets does he have to give up to get other teams to take his bad contracts?

 

If you areTavares, would you rather be the face of a franchise or a face in the crowd? Would you like to be the next Steve Yzerman? Would you want Manth and Z as linemates? Would you like to grow a zetterbeard? I still think the Wings have some strong selling points.

[kickazz 5,459]

I guess I'm just confused as to how we're getting Dahlin or Svech.

Are we winning the draft lottery by being top 3 worst teams? Or are we assuming Holland trades up for those picks? If so don't we give up Larkin/Mantha etc. 

I feel like the planets would have to line up perfectly for all these scenarios, unless I'm missing something.

Edited September 22, 2017 by kickazz

[Dabura 12,206]

33 minutes ago, kickazz said:

I guess I'm just confused as to how we're getting Dahlin or Svech.

Are we winning the draft lottery by being top 3 worst teams? Or are we assuming Holland trades up for those picks? If so don't we give up Larkin/Mantha etc. 

I feel like the planets would have to line up perfectly for all these scenarios, unless I'm missing something.

Finish bottom five, get lucky.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

I also really want one of Svech or Dahlin. Though I'd settle for the youngest Tkachuk too.

[joesuffP 1,746]

15 hours ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

I'm not saying we couldn't be a contender if all our stars aligned: we get JT, draft Dahlin, and key kids (Larkin, Mantha, AA, Mrazek, Cholowski?, Svech?) all take huge steps this year. Just, if JT is looking to to win a cup in a year or 2, I doubt that Red WIngs would anywhere near his top list of sure things.

I think the more likely line of thinking that would bring him here would be, as Pierre says, that he'd have center stage here. The only problem with that is whether he'd want to be the captain and ultimate leader of whatever team he plays for. Z is rightfully that guy for as long as he keeps playing. 

I was day dreaming yesterday drafting Dahlin and signing Tavares. Our rebuild would be complete in one offseason

Would any team consider trading the first for a top five pick plus Larkin?

Will teams pass up a true #1 elite defensemen though seeing as they are so hard to acquire around the league

Edited September 22, 2017 by joesuffP

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

1 hour ago, joesuffP said:

I was day dreaming yesterday drafting Dahlin and signing Tavares. Our rebuild would be complete in one offseason

Would any team consider trading the first for a top five pick plus Larkin?

Will teams pass up a true #1 elite defensemen though seeing as they are so hard to acquire around the league

Yeah it would be a way to fill our 2 biggest holes (and the 2 essential spots on any team IMO), but my "stars aligning" scenario wasn't meant to be realistic. I don't think anyone would trade the top pick, especially with those players in line. We'd have to finish at or near the bottom to get Dahlin ourselves. And doing that would mean that at least some of our key young players would not excel which would hurt the rebuild and probably our chance at attracting JT. I guess just hope for some luck in the next draft - there's plenty of good players it seems and Dmen are hard to predict are often found lower. 

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Nothing against Pierre it's knowledge is unbelievable but this is the same clickbait as the Detroit and Stamkos  article. Why would JT want to come here? Whenever the rebuild starts it willtake years of good drafting and some luck to build towards something that hopefully 1 day can win a cup(s)! again.

JT will be 27 years old and should have another decade of hockey left in him given how he serious and hard he works. If I were him I'd be looking at Nashville (great city, great team and absolutely no media pressure), St. Louis or Tampa...imagine Stamkos, Tavares on the same team they'd basically have a 1a and 1b line depending on the specific needs of the game.

What the Wings need to do is simple: hopefully finish last but damn Vegas, Vancouver and Newjersey will be tough to beat...in order to secure a top 4 pick which could be Brady Tkachuk a center with good size and some mean streak going on is exactly what the Wings could need...given that they don't win the Dahlin lottery. I don't care if it means that some (overhyped) young players would need to have a bad year for that because neither of them will be the difference between winning or losing a cup in the future with maybe Larkin and Mantha as the exception.

 

[kliq 3,755]

1 hour ago, frankgrimes said:

Nothing against Pierre it's knowledge is unbelievable but this is the same clickbait as the Detroit and Stamkos  article. Why would JT want to come here? Whenever the rebuild starts it willtake years of good drafting and some luck to build towards something that hopefully 1 day can win a cup(s)! again.

JT will be 27 years old and should have another decade of hockey left in him given how he serious and hard he works. If I were him I'd be looking at Nashville (great city, great team and absolutely no media pressure), St. Louis or Tampa...imagine Stamkos, Tavares on the same team they'd basically have a 1a and 1b line depending on the specific needs of the game.

What the Wings need to do is simple: hopefully finish last but damn Vegas, Vancouver and Newjersey will be tough to beat...in order to secure a top 4 pick which could be Brady Tkachuk a center with good size and some mean streak going on is exactly what the Wings could need...given that they don't win the Dahlin lottery. I don't care if it means that some (overhyped) young players would need to have a bad year for that because neither of them will be the difference between winning or losing a cup in the future with maybe Larkin and Mantha as the exception.

Why would JT come to Detroit? Because a top 6 of JT, Zetterberg, improved versions of Mantha/Larkin, Nyquist, and Tatar is a very good top 6. And despite what you say about us, we are still the Detroit Red Wings and that means something. Same reason why Babs went to the Leafs and 2 years ago they were a bigger s*** show then us.

The days of tanking for the 1st overall pick are not what they used to be. Didn't Colorado/Philly teach you anything this year?

[frankgrimes 1,836]

56 minutes ago, kliq said:

Why would JT come to Detroit? Because a top 6 of JT, Zetterberg, improved versions of Mantha/Larkin, Nyquist, and Tatar is a very good top 6. And despite what you say about us, we are still the Detroit Red Wings and that means something. Same reason why Babs went to the Leafs and 2 years ago they were a bigger s*** show then us.

The days of tanking for the 1st overall pick are not what they used to be. Didn't Colorado/Philly teach you anything this year?

Of course it means something but like it or not the chance to win a cup means more to players. The guy wants to win a cup not be part of another team that doesn't have any chance at doing so otherwise he could just sign an extension with the Isles.

Every season and team needs something to look forward to and for me that's the chance of drafting Dahlin or at least the guarantee to draft Tkachuk.

[kliq 3,755]

1 hour ago, frankgrimes said:

Of course it means something but like it or not the chance to win a cup means more to players. The guy wants to win a cup not be part of another team that doesn't have any chance at doing so otherwise he could just sign an extension with the Isles.

Every season and team needs something to look forward to and for me that's the chance of drafting Dahlin or at least the guarantee to draft Tkachuk.

I dont think its fair to say that this team doesnt have a chance to win a cup in the next 7 years (I say 7 because that is what JT will sign for). Parity is real, teams can go from first to worst or worst to first in a season or two now a days.

Please do not mistake this with me saying that we WILL win a cup in the next 7 years, what I am saying is that "The guy wants to win a cup not be part of another team that doesn't have any chance at doing so" is simply an incorrect statement. 

With JT, our top 6 becomes a very good top 6, and with Abby, Helm etc. playing in the bottom 6, that will become very good as well for a bottom 6. If we can fix the D, there is no reason to think that we can't be contenders in a few years. 

*edit* we could still not make the playoffs this year and get a top pick AND still sign JT. Its not as if only one or the other will happen. It could be both, it could be neither, who knows how the season will play out.

Edited September 22, 2017 by kliq

[Buppy 1,720]

If I were going to pay a player ~$9M+ I would expect him to believe that he gives me a chance to win a cup rather than someone looking for a team to carry him.

If even he doesn't believe he would be "the answer" here, it would just be more evidence that he, in fact, wouldn't be (not that his career thus far isn't ample evidence of that). So we shouldn't even want him. 

I understand that if he becomes available we more or less have to make a bid, but I hope you all are right and he wouldn't want to come here. Would both save us from signing him and demonstrate a refreshing level of self-awareness.

[kliq 3,755]

13 minutes ago, Buppy said:

If I were going to pay a player ~$9M+ I would expect him to believe that he gives me a chance to win a cup rather than someone looking for a team to carry him.

If even he doesn't believe he would be "the answer" here, it would just be more evidence that he, in fact, wouldn't be (not that his career thus far isn't ample evidence of that). So we shouldn't even want him. 

I understand that if he becomes available we more or less have to make a bid, but I hope you all are right and he wouldn't want to come here. Would both save us from signing him and demonstrate a refreshing level of self-awareness.

To be fair though, we have no idea how he thinks, this is just Frank's theory. 

By your self awareness comment, I assume you are insinuating that JT does not give us a chance, and us not realizing that is a symptom of a present lack of awareness? 

[Buppy 1,720]

2 hours ago, kliq said:

To be fair though, we have no idea how he thinks, this is just Frank's theory. 

By your self awareness comment, I assume you are insinuating that JT does not give us a chance, and us not realizing that is a symptom of a present lack of awareness? 

Self-awareness on Tavares' part. A somewhat too subtle insinuation that he isn't capable of being "the guy", and therefore should be looking to play second fiddle somewhere. 

[toby91_ca 620]

On 9/22/2017 at 7:29 PM, Buppy said:

If I were going to pay a player ~$9M+ I would expect him to believe that he gives me a chance to win a cup rather than someone looking for a team to carry him.

That's true, but one player doesn't take you from the basement to a contender in hockey, one player can only do so much.  One great player can certainly make the difference on a certain teams, but it's absolutely something to think about in terms of whether the team will be successful that he's joining (the difference he'd make to that team would be a consideration in there).  You also have to consider means of moving to a certain team...is it via trade or via free agency?  Either has it's challenges, but the bigger probably being via trade.  If I'm traded, what is the team giving up to get me?  If a team wants a bona fide superstar, they are going to have to give up a lot...so while they add, they also subtract, perhaps it's through prospects and picks, so doesn't hurt in the very short term, but short term isn't a good way to go about things.  With free agency, there is also downside by taking up dollars that can be spent around you, but not a lot of thought goes into that I'd guess.

[Krayzie_Bone 58]

I cant see how we have the money. Green's money will have to be given to mantha or larkin. Trim the roster down to one goalie making money. Try and dump off Nileson on someone and buy out Ericsson and then you can make something happen. Kronwall will be off the books after next year at least.

[kliq 3,755]

5 hours ago, Krayzie_Bone said:

I cant see how we have the money. Green's money will have to be given to mantha or larkin. Trim the roster down to one goalie making money. Try and dump off Nileson on someone and buy out Ericsson and then you can make something happen. Kronwall will be off the books after next year at least.

Green - 6mil, Weiss' cap hit goes down 1mil, trade Howard (5.3 mil), Sheahan is off the books. That right there is 14.3 million.

You essentially need to move/buyout/LTIR one more piece (ie. a Kronwall, E, Helm Abby etc.) and it should be no problem to re-sign Larkin, Mantha, and sign JT.

[AtlantaHotWings 973]

10 minutes ago, kliq said:

Green - 6mil, Weiss' cap hit goes down 1mil, trade Howard (5.3 mil), Sheahan is off the books. That right there is 14.3 million.

You essentially need to move/buyout/LTIR one more piece (ie. a Kronwall, E, Helm Abby etc.) and it should be no problem to re-sign Larkin, Mantha, and sign JT.

Dependent on AA you are @ ~12 million right? Or was AA already in the calculation. 

[kliq 3,755]

27 minutes ago, AtlantaHotWings said:

Dependent on AA you are @ ~12 million right? Or was AA already in the calculation. 

No he wasnt, so I guess if you include AA that will be around 2mil, but then if you get rid of Sheahan now it essentially offsets that. So if I dont count Sheahan's 2mil, but count the extra 966,000 left at the moment, it gives us 13.2 rather then 14.3.

I still think we can do it cap wise if JT agreed to come here. If it meant signing JT or not signing JT, I think Holland would buyout E, trade Helm etc.