Rumors Thread

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Holy s***, we have literally nothing that even approaches the value of Karlsson on the Red Wings. Karlsson is one of the mot dominant Dmen seen in 20 years. Mantha and Larkin are super n all, but nowhere near his level. If they are dumb enough to trade him to us you bite.

[kickazz 5,459]

5 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Mantha, Larkin, Rasmussen, and Cholowski for Karlsson?

No. 

You don't give up 4 bodies. For a 1 year of Karlsson, 1 "untouchable" guy, one 2ndary scorer and however many picks that we'd probably end up wasting anyways. 

I keep Larkin over Mantha 

Edited December 12, 2017 by kickazz

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

7 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Mantha, Larkin, Rasmussen, and Cholowski for Karlsson?

I like ur new profile pic. Is that an iron cross?

[kickazz 5,459]

By the way, for those who think Karlsson will walk and we wasted some young players.

If he wants to hit FA, we can trade him at deadline in 2019 and re-gain most of what we've lost, maybe even more if we're lucky. There's options of how things pan out for whatever team ends up with him if Ottawa does trade him. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

I'd love to have a shot at Karlsson, but if I'm Ken Holland, I'm taking that shot if he hits free agency, not via trade. I just don't see a scenario where trading one (or two) of our top young forwards, high end prospect(s) and multiple first round picks for one elite defenseman works out in our favor. I'd much rather put all of my eggs in the Dahlin basket, than go broke on Karlsson. As of right now, we have a legit shot at winning the draft lottery to draft a player that could be just as good or better than Karlsson. Even if we don't win the lottery and end up with a top 3-5 pick, I'd rather overpay to move up a few spots, then drastically overpay for a pending UFA, that by all accounts will test the open market.

Sure, we could trade for Karlsson and offer him max term and max salary, but I'm not sure I'd want to do that with any 29 year old. Those sort of contracts are best reserved for the 24-26 year old elite players. I'm sure a 29 year old Karlsson will be worth $12+M, but what about 34-37 year old Karlsson? Maybe, but probably not. If we're going all in for a Cup in those first few years of that contract, trading away your best young players and picks is not a recipe for success. Counting on signing the best player (Tavares) to hit free agency, probably ever isn't either.

I want Holland to make trades, but not for the elite of the elite, especially for a team that is rebuilding. Regardless, Karlsson isn't coming here, and quite frankly, I'm completely okay with that.

[Juklitz 85]

4 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

It's my proposed logo for the International Independents, sponsored by Independent Truck Company. 

Would be funny olympics choose something what looks like iron cross. 

[LeftWinger 4,953]

I say no to trying to acquire Karlsson via trade.  Continue the slide, trade players at the deadline, have the best chance at #1 pick, MAKE A HUGE OFFER TO TAVARES, then dump some more salary over the summer if needed.

Trade at deadline:  Green, Nyquist(Tatar) and Helm (Abby) and XO for some draft picks.

I'd love to have TWO 1st round picks this June to go along with the two 2nds and 3rds.

Next season, we MUST be the top player in the JT sweeps and then if we can draft Dahlin, that would be the best scenario to get this team on track. Next years D looks like this kind of:

Green is gone, XO is gone, Kronwall retires:

Daley - Dahlin

DD - Cholowski

Hicketts - Jensen

Ericsson

Not the best look at the moment, but once Dahlin nets ROY award and Tavares leads the team in scoring, we COULD be an attractive team for Karlsson via UFA and other UFA's may follow. Which may encourage Z to finish his contract (we avoid the penalty) BTW, I do not qualify Mrazek this summer and let him pursue a job somewhere else. He needs it.

 

[DickieDunn 2,571]

4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I'd love to have a shot at Karlsson, but if I'm Ken Holland, I'm taking that shot if he hits free agency, not via trade. I just don't see a scenario where trading one (or two) of our top young forwards, high end prospect(s) and multiple first round picks for one elite defenseman works out in our favor. I'd much rather put all of my eggs in the Dahlin basket, than go broke on Karlsson. As of right now, we have a legit shot at winning the draft lottery to draft a player that could be just as good or better than Karlsson. Even if we don't win the lottery and end up with a top 3-5 pick, I'd rather overpay to move up a few spots, then drastically overpay for a pending UFA, that by all accounts will test the open market.

Sure, we could trade for Karlsson and offer him max term and max salary, but I'm not sure I'd want to do that with any 29 year old. Those sort of contracts are best reserved for the 24-26 year old elite players. I'm sure a 29 year old Karlsson will be worth $12+M, but what about 34-37 year old Karlsson? Maybe, but probably not. If we're going all in for a Cup in those first few years of that contract, trading away your best young players and picks is not a recipe for success. Counting on signing the best player (Tavares) to hit free agency, probably ever isn't either.

I want Holland to make trades, but not for the elite of the elite, especially for a team that is rebuilding. Regardless, Karlsson isn't coming here, and quite frankly, I'm completely okay with that.

I wouldn't trade both Larkin and Mantha for him unless that's all it took.  Then I'd at least consider it.  one of them plus Rasmussen and Cholowski?  In a second.

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

I'd love to have TWO 1st round picks this June to go along with the two 2nds and 3rds.

Green should garner a late 1st / early 2nd, so if we're able to get a team to give up a late 1st for Green, that's the minimum we should have going into next year's draft. Ideally we pick up another 2nd and / or 3rd along the way as well. We really need as many swings at bat as we can next summer, with it being such a deep draft.

2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Green is gone, XO is gone, Kronwall retires:

Daley - Dahlin

DD - Cholowski

Hicketts - Jensen

Ericsson

Hicketts will probably make the team next season, but I'd be shocked if Cholowski starts the season in Detroit. He'll likely see at least half a season (if not more) in Grand Rapids. I'm also starting to think Kronwall may have it in him to finish out his final season...

18 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

I wouldn't trade both Larkin and Mantha for him unless that's all it took.  Then I'd at least consider it.  one of them plus Rasmussen and Cholowski?  In a second.

No way would I trade Larkin AND Mantha, even if Karlsson weren't a pending UFA. How are we winning by adding Karlsson and having absolutely no supporting cast? Our defense would still be weaker than Ottawa's is now, and we'd be much, MUCH worse up front. The Sens have come close in recent years, but adding Karlsson and subtracting two of our best young forwards would literally be taking one (big) step forward and two steps back. Makes no sense to me. Wait until free agency. Don't f*** your entire team for one player.

[kickazz 5,459]

5 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I

I want Holland to make trades, but not for the elite of the elite, especially for a team that is rebuilding. Regardless, Karlsson isn't coming here, and quite frankly, I'm completely okay with that.

Um whats the point of making any trade if yu want to draft Dahlin and wait? You’re contradicting yourself. On one hand you’re saying you want to build through the draft (which will take 4-5 more years probably by the time the pieces are ready) but on the other hand you want a non-elite trade now? Either way a trade (Karlsson or not Karlsson) fixes issues now while the draft POSSIBLY fixes issues years down the lane.

Edited December 12, 2017 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

21 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Um whats the point of making any trade if yu want to draft Dahlin and wait? You’re contradicting yourself. On one hand you’re saying you want to build through the draft (which will take 4-5 more years probably by the time the pieces are ready) but on the other hand you want a non-elite trade now? Either way a trade (Karlsson or not Karlsson) fixes issues now while the draft POSSIBLY fixes issues years down the lane.

I'm not contradicting myself at all, you just haven't been paying attention. Myself along with a few others have discussed ad nauseam about trading for players that would be included in the future rebuild. I've mentioned players like Bean, Fabbro, Sanheim, among others. aka non-established players that you wouldn't have to mortgage the future for. These are the sort of low-key trades I'd like to see Holland make. Not trading for an elite defenseman that would cost every high end player they've developed over the past several years, with the possibility of having nothing to show for it in a year and a half...

[kickazz 5,459]

11 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I'm not contradicting myself at all, you just haven't been paying attention. Myself along with a few others have discussed ad nauseam about trading for players that would be included in the future rebuild. I've mentioned players like Bean, Fabbro, Sanheim, among others. aka non-established players that you wouldn't have to mortgage the future for. These are the sort of low-key trades I'd like to see Holland make. Not trading for an elite defenseman that would cost every high end player they've developed over the past several years, with the possibility of having nothing to show for it in a year and a half...

And what includes your package of Bean, Fabbro, Sanheim? By the way those are weak trades you might as well just stand pat and draft your own D-men and wait the extra year or two. Oh wait Holland is already doing that... 

[chaps80 1,591]

7 minutes ago, kickazz said:

And what includes your package of Bean, Fabbro, Sanheim? By the way those are weak trades you might as well just stand pat and draft your own D-men and wait the extra year or two. Oh wait Holland is already doing that... 

Holland doesn’t stand pat though. Still signed his usual band aid fixes in the off-season. I’m not against the Daley signing, but proper rebuilding doesn’t usually include hitting the cap limit just because you can. This team would still suck with or without him. Start saving some money.

[krsmith17 7,191]

10 minutes ago, kickazz said:

And what includes your package of Bean, Fabbro, Sanheim? By the way those are weak trades you might as well just stand pat and draft your own D-men and wait the extra year or two. Oh wait Holland is already doing that... 

You think trading for Bean would be a weak trade? I disagree. Our best defense prospect is Cholowski. He's much better than Cholo in my opinion. Will he be elite? Not likely. Will he be a top pair defenseman? The potential is definitely there. It wouldn't cost a ton, and these are exactly the type of low risk, high reward trades I'd be looking to make. Bean is probably a poor example though, because like I've said before, Carolina wouldn't be a great trading partner right now, being outside of playoff contention. But a similar prospect, such a Fabbro, could likely be had for a top 6 forward and a prospect / pick. I'd do that in a heartbeat and Nashville would likely be willing to give up a high end defense prospect because they're already stacked there, in exchange for added offensive punch for a playoff run.

Anyway, I'd love to have Karlsson, but I wouldn't trade for him.

[kickazz 5,459]

47 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

]But a similar prospect, such a Fabbro, could likely be had for a top 6 forward and a prospect / pick. I'd do that in a heartbeat and Nashville would likely be willing to give up a high end defense prospect because they're already stacked there, in exchange for added offensive punch for a playoff run.

Okay and what would your trade scenario for Fabbro be? Specifically.

So let me get this straight. You've been calling for Holland's head because he "refuses or unwilling to make trades" and this trade you speak of is for an unproven player? LOL.

And here I was thinking you were actually talking about some legit trades like getting an established NHL player or something, not some fairy tale junior you supposedly think "could be good hypothetically because I don't think ours is as good". 

Sorry but I'm with Holland than some weak trade because "you think so and so could be good in 3 years but hasn't sniffed a day of NHL". 

I think you have grass is greener snydrome because you're upset with this teams performance. Cholowski has 28 points in 25 WHL games. He's doing just fine. Fabbro is doing worse in the NCAA. Not sure if it's worth giving up a top 6 and prospect/pick for that lol. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by kickazz

[BinMucker94 302]

Cholowski and Bean are putting up similar numbers in the W. Only difference is Bean is -12 and Cholowski is a +3. Both are on pretty weak teams. Bean may have a solid offensive game but his defense seems to be lacking.

[krsmith17 7,191]

41 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Okay and what would your trade scenario for Fabbro be? Specifically.

So let me get this straight. You've been calling for Holland's head because he "refuses or unwilling to make trades" and this trade you speak of is for an unproven player? LOL.

And here I was thinking you were actually talking about some legit trades like getting an established NHL player or something, not some fairy tale junior you supposedly think "could be good hypothetically because I don't think ours is as good". 

Sorry but I'm with Holland than some weak trade because "you think so and so could be good in 3 years but hasn't sniffed a day of NHL". 

I think you have grass is greener snydrome because you're upset with this teams performance. Cholowski has 28 points in 25 WHL games. He's doing just fine. Fabbro is doing worse in the NCAA. Not sure if it's worth giving up a top 6 and prospect/pick for that lol. 

I don't know what I'd give up specifically, but like I said, some sort of package including a top 6 forward. Maybe Tatar, and a mid tier prospect / pick would get it done.

I'm not "calling for Holland's head", I just wish he was more willing to make trades. And yes, I believe the types of trades for a rebuilding team should be geared more toward the future, aka prospects / picks. 

Here you thought I wanted an established NHL player when I've said plain as can be over and over and over again that we should be looking to trade for high end prospects, not high end players. For someone as active on here as you, you'd think you'd be more aware of this. Myself and Dabura as well as others have talked about this several times.

"Some fairy tale junior"... What the f*** does that even mean? It's called targeting prospects to help the rebuild. Teams do it all the time. Right, I forgot, us "armchair GM's" aren't supposed to voice our opinions though... It's not like the players I've mentioned are highly touted by NHL scouts / analysts. What do they know anyway?...

I don't have "grass is greener" syndrome at all. I just believe in exploring options outside the organization. Something that is completely foreign to Holland. Never mind, I forgot about the Wilson trade. That was a big acquisition...

Cholowski has 25 points in 28 games actually, but you're right, he is doing just fine. Never said he wasn't. I still think (hope) he will be a solid 2/3 defenseman in a few years. But outside of him, I don't see a single defenseman in our organization becoming anything more than a 4/5. That's a problem. A problem I would like the team to address.

Fabbro is playing in the NCAA, a much tougher league than the WHL. Which is why Cholowski struggled, only putting up 12 points in 36 games last year. In comparison, Fabbro has 12 points in 18 games (half) this season. Granted, he's 8 months older than Cholowski was, but still, it's a much tougher league as an 18-19 year old.

And yes, I would give up a Nyquist / Tatar, plus a mid tier prospect / pick in a heart beat for Fabbro. You can disagree. That's fine. "LOL", "lol", "lol"...

[krsmith17 7,191]

25 minutes ago, BinMucker94 said:

Cholowski and Bean are putting up similar numbers in the W. Only difference is Bean is -12 and Cholowski is a +3. Both are on pretty weak teams. Bean may have a solid offensive game but his defense seems to be lacking.

Prince George as a team are -12, whereas Calgary are -22. Regardless, I wouldn't put too much stock into +/-, especially at the junior level.

The fact that they're putting up similar numbers (Bean - 1.08 Pts/G / Cholowski - 0.89 Pts/G) , and that I'm so high on Cholowski, is exactly the reason I'd like to go after such a player. One future potential top 2 defenseman isn't enough. I'd like to see us trade for one. Who that is, doesn't matter to me...

[lomekian 201]

15 hours ago, kliq said:

Karlsson on an extension, I trade Larkin or Mantha for him in a heart beat. No extension, I'm very hesitant.

If we traded say Larkin for Karlsson, then Karlsson just leaves, we look like idiots. 

Exactly where I stand. If Karlsson says he dreamt of playing for the wings, its an honour to do so, and he can see himself making a home here long term, then firing on anyone but Larkin is an easy decision

[lomekian 201]

6 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

It's my proposed logo for the International Independents, sponsored by Independent Truck Company.  If the olympics wants to sell a lot of ice hockey jerseys, they just take the Kings uni and use that logo.  Hello $$$.

Its a bit Kaiser Wilhelm WWI (as occasionally evoked by the Nazis). In Abstract it is very cool logo...in context you might be a bit worried where the $$$ were coming from. You could almost count the months till someone wearing one perpetrated a mass shooting...

6 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

I say no to trying to acquire Karlsson via trade.  Continue the slide, trade players at the deadline, have the best chance at #1 pick, MAKE A HUGE OFFER TO TAVARES, then dump some more salary over the summer if needed.

Trade at deadline:  Green, Nyquist(Tatar) and Helm (Abby) and XO for some draft picks.

I'd love to have TWO 1st round picks this June to go along with the two 2nds and 3rds.

Next season, we MUST be the top player in the JT sweeps and then if we can draft Dahlin, that would be the best scenario to get this team on track. Next years D looks like this kind of:

Green is gone, XO is gone, Kronwall retires:

Daley - Dahlin

DD - Cholowski

Hicketts - Jensen

Ericsson

Not the best look at the moment, but once Dahlin nets ROY award and Tavares leads the team in scoring, we COULD be an attractive team for Karlsson via UFA and other UFA's may follow. Which may encourage Z to finish his contract (we avoid the penalty) BTW, I do not qualify Mrazek this summer and let him pursue a job somewhere else. He needs it.

 

This is dream scenario of course. And much like trading for Karlsson, I'll be astounded if it happens!

[lomekian 201]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't know what I'd give up specifically, but like I said, some sort of package including a top 6 forward. Maybe Tatar, and a mid tier prospect / pick would get it done.

Cholowski has 25 points in 28 games actually, but you're right, he is doing just fine. Never said he wasn't. I still think (hope) he will be a solid 2/3 defenseman in a few years. But outside of him, I don't see a single defenseman in our organization becoming anything more than a 4/5. That's a problem. A problem I would like the team to address.

Fabbro is playing in the NCAA, a much tougher league than the WHL. Which is why Cholowski struggled, only putting up 12 points in 36 games last year. In comparison, Fabbro has 12 points in 18 games (half) this season. Granted, he's 8 months older than Cholowski was, but still, it's a much tougher league as an 18-19 year old.

And yes, I would give up a Nyquist / Tatar, plus a mid tier prospect / pick in a heart beat for Fabbro. You can disagree. That's fine. "LOL", "lol", "lol"...

I still have hope that Hronek can be a genuine number 3. He's doing pretty well in the AHL when the rest of Grand Rapids are underachieving statistically in a big way. I think we also have enough d prospects with safe 5/6 written all over them. So the question is does *insert young D here* appear to be a future #1 or #2 (or at very worst #3) with a high floor to make sure the worst we end up with is a #4? And are they likely to be ready to get an NHL look at least in the next 18 months.

If its yes to both, I'd trade Nike, and that should be enough with the right trading partner (seeing as we mostly think he's worth a 1st in a deep draft). If its no to either, it depends on if you can get another late pick or another maybe D prospect. If its no to both, walk away.

I've not seen enough of Fabbro to comment, but from what I know, I like him more than Bean.

[lomekian 201]

3 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Yah, i would put trucks patches on the shoulders to make it painfully obvious it's NOT a ww2 nazi germany logo.

Probably avoiding too much black or grey in the rest of the uniform might help too! That's the problem with German WWI & Nazi appropriated images - they did it really well with a great flair for design, colour relationships and detail. Just ask Hugo Boss about the SS uniforms.

Reminds me of the Mitchell and Webb sketch:

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

13 minutes ago, lomekian said:

I still have hope that Hronek can be a genuine number 3. He's doing pretty well in the AHL when the rest of Grand Rapids are underachieving statistically in a big way. I think we also have enough d prospects with safe 5/6 written all over them. So the question is does *insert young D here* appear to be a future #1 or #2 (or at very worst #3) with a high floor to make sure the worst we end up with is a #4? And are they likely to be ready to get an NHL look at least in the next 18 months.

If its yes to both, I'd trade Nike, and that should be enough with the right trading partner (seeing as we mostly think he's worth a 1st in a deep draft). If its no to either, it depends on if you can get another late pick or another maybe D prospect. If its no to both, walk away.

I've not seen enough of Fabbro to comment, but from what I know, I like him more than Bean.

I think Hronek could become a solid 2nd pairing (number 3) defenseman as well. I like him a lot. I also agree that we have the depth, but lack the top end talent.

As for your first question, I would say yes for both Bean and Fabbro. Second question, I'm not sure why the timeline is significant, but I think both would be ready in a year and a half to two years for sure.

I'm not so sure Nyquist could get us a first round pick. If he could, I'd explore that option as well, and that's coming from one of Nyquist's biggest supporters.

[Richdg 267]

17 hours ago, kickazz said:

Same type of offensive numbers? You must not be reading the numbers right. Karlsson scores 70-80 points a year. The highest OEL has scored is 55 and that was 3 years ago.  

Blocks more shots? OEL blocked 85 shots last year. Want to know how many Karlsson blocked? 201. 

Lol. You're wayyyyy off and wrong. 

Nope. Over the last 4 full season 2013/2014 through 2016/17 OEL has more hits and more goals. Karlsson has more assists and blocks. Karlsson plays on a much better team as well. There is no real difference between them as a player. OEL is also a year younger and bigger with no major injury history.

Now we are debating about who is better between two great players. But to say one is way better than the other is wrong. They are both great!

The biggest question is which one is available? Can we afford either one?

The problem with trading your best scoring F to get a top scoring Dman, 75% of the points that Dman produce are assists. If no one is there to put the puck in the net, what happens to their points? They go down of course. If we trade potential 35 goal scorer in Mantha to get a 20 goal scoring Dman in Karlsson we lose goals. So someone has to make up that difference. We don't have another guy in the system capable of scoring that many. We have several guys that look like 20-25 goal per year guys.

Now if I could get Karlsson for our 1st, the 1st we get for trading Green, AA, Cholowski, and say Tatar do I do it? Hell yes! I make the same deal to get OEL as well! Then I work on signing them long term.

[Dabura 12,207]

5 hours ago, kickazz said:

Um whats the point of making any trade if yu want to draft Dahlin and wait? You’re contradicting yourself. On one hand you’re saying you want to build through the draft (which will take 4-5 more years probably by the time the pieces are ready) but on the other hand you want a non-elite trade now? Either way a trade (Karlsson or not Karlsson) fixes issues now while the draft POSSIBLY fixes issues years down the lane.

We can build through the draft and also make trades. The former doesn't preclude the latter.

Carolina got Teravainen for a 2nd and a 3rd. Just sayin'.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Dabura