Rumors Thread

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, chaps80 said:

I expect any cap space Kenny opens up to be promptly blown on needless vets like he always does. Holland is a dangerous when he has cash to blow. Could never help himself. Hopefully he’s smarter this offseason.

As for Green, why re-sign him as a UFA if he’s traded for picks, which needs to happen? You think he’ll take less than he’s making now? Doubt that, he’ll have other teams throwing money at him. 

Far as I’m concerned, Holland shouldn’t be bringing back any former Wings anymore unless they’re truly stuck and it’s the only viable option. Once they’re gone, leave it alone. 

Green does need to be traded because he's a UFA. However, he doesn't need to be traded because we need the cap space or the roster spot. Trading him for assets and bringing him back is the best thing for this team, both short term and long term.

I do think he would take less than he's making now. Sure, other teams would be interested in him, but he's stated several times that he wants to stay in Detroit. If that is true, he should be willing to take a pay cut.

Why would you not take him back? He's far and away our best defenseman, and no one in the organization would be able to come close to replacing him. It makes no sense...

[Euro_Twins 4,475]

23 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

According to Paul Woods on last nights broadcast, on average, if a player is drafted in the 3rd round he only has a 25% chance of making the NHL.  Of course the lower the round, the less likely he is to make it.

With that being said, unless you are trying to dump salary (Nyquist/Tatar) or the player no longer fits into your plans/not wanted or is replaceable from within (XO/Mrazek) there is no absolutely no reason to accept any draft pick lower than a 2nd unless a prospect is coming back

If the player is sought after for the experience and/or intangibles that he brings yet you really don't NEED to trade that player (Green/Glenny/Howard) you hold all the cards.

Anything less than a 1st or an NHL ready prospect for Green from a Cup Favorite is an insult and Kenny should just keep him and re-sign him. If All TPA wants to offer is a 2nd, which in reality will more than likely be a #58-#62, basically a high 3rd, then I would hang up the phone.  If they throw an NHL ready prospect in with that 2nd, now I'm interested. If indeed Green wants to come back, we do not NEED to trade him for a pick that has an average of 25% or worse chance of making the NHL in 4-5 years.

disney.com is a very integral part of our team.  He is a defensive minded RH'd center that logs a good amount of icetime, kills penalties and is matched up with teams top players a lot of times. His cap hit isn't too bad considering what you are paying Helm and Abby to be on his line most nights. For Toronto to offer a 5th round pick for a player with Luke's intangibles is insulting.  Kudos to Holland for asking for a 2nd round pick. That 5th round draft pick will take at least 4-5 years to even be NHL ready, if he makes it at all.  All the while Toronto would get a rare RH'd center with the defensive prowess of Glenny and we get a player that more than likely will never see an NHL ice surface outside of prospect camp.  I am not saying Glenny is the hands down Selke winner for his ability, but when it comes to depth down the middle, a player with Luke's assets is a integral piece to that playoff team that needs to fill that position. So if we're listening to offers on him, it damn well better be a 2nd or an NHL ready prospect to come in and replace what he brings. Anything less no thanks!

If we trade Tatar and or Nyquist, maybe 2nds and 3rds are fine because we are basically trading them to free up cap space and get a little something in return for them.  If we are trading XO, he is basically a 7th D-man making over $1M, how many 7th D-men do we have now that make way less? XO for a late round pick is a no brainer because even if that pick never makes the NHL, we really aren't losing out by trading XO.  That is why Holland accepted what Philly offered for Petr.  He wasn't going to be in our plans, he wasn't going to be qualified, so he would've left for nothing. Even if the pick remains a 4th and we don't get the 2019 pick, it doesn't matter if that guy makes it really because we weren't going to have Petr here anyhow, so just having a player with a chance to make it  is better that nothing.

Why not have the same mindset on Green, you may ask? Well because Green is highly sought after by, according to Paul Woods, no less than 4 teams. Sure if he does come back, then getting "something" for him in the form of lower picks than a 1st is a bonus.  But there is the chance, if he wins a Cup somewhere, he may want to stay there and try to win more, so if we're trading a player that could be the chip that gets the dip for a team, PLUS he signs there for less and helps them remain favorites, we need to be compensated appropriately. Like stated many times, a 2nd from TPA or NSH, for example, is basically a 3rd, and Green is worth more than that. So IMO Green should garner either a 1st outright, an NHL ready player outright, or if we accept a 2nd it better include at LEAST a mid-to-near ready NHL prospect. If it's less than a 2nd, it damn well better include that NHL ready Prospect.

I realize that the TDL is full of surprises and let downs when it comes to what a fan is hoping to see, but honestly, for players who are still important members of this team now and the future, I hope that Holland just hangs up the phone if he receives any type of lowball offer like the one Toronto tried on him.

So:

Mike Green: 1st RND -or- NHL Ready Prospect -or- 2nd RND Mid-Near Ready NHL Prospect -or- Lower RND pick PLUS NHL Ready Prospect.

disney.com: 2nd RND pick -or- NHL Ready Prospect

Nyquist/Tatar/Howard: some kind of fair market value return in order to clear cap.

XO: Mid to later RND pick

 

* and yes I do realize they are probably not trading Howard now, but I list him because his name has been out there as a possibility, and if the offer is good, take it IMO.

No is giving a 2nd for disney.com. No one. 

[amato 3,210]

17 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

According to Paul Woods on last nights broadcast, on average, if a player is drafted in the 3rd round he only has a 25% chance of making the NHL.  Of course the lower the round, the less likely he is to make it.

With that being said, unless you are trying to dump salary (Nyquist/Tatar) or the player no longer fits into your plans/not wanted or is replaceable from within (XO/Mrazek) there is no absolutely no reason to accept any draft pick lower than a 2nd unless a prospect is coming back

If the player is sought after for the experience and/or intangibles that he brings yet you really don't NEED to trade that player (Green/Glenny/Howard) you hold all the cards.

Anything less than a 1st or an NHL ready prospect for Green from a Cup Favorite is an insult and Kenny should just keep him and re-sign him. If All TPA wants to offer is a 2nd, which in reality will more than likely be a #58-#62, basically a high 3rd, then I would hang up the phone.  If they throw an NHL ready prospect in with that 2nd, now I'm interested. If indeed Green wants to come back, we do not NEED to trade him for a pick that has an average of 25% or worse chance of making the NHL in 4-5 years.

disney.com is a very integral part of our team.  He is a defensive minded RH'd center that logs a good amount of icetime, kills penalties and is matched up with teams top players a lot of times. His cap hit isn't too bad considering what you are paying Helm and Abby to be on his line most nights. For Toronto to offer a 5th round pick for a player with Luke's intangibles is insulting.  Kudos to Holland for asking for a 2nd round pick. That 5th round draft pick will take at least 4-5 years to even be NHL ready, if he makes it at all.  All the while Toronto would get a rare RH'd center with the defensive prowess of Glenny and we get a player that more than likely will never see an NHL ice surface outside of prospect camp.  I am not saying Glenny is the hands down Selke winner for his ability, but when it comes to depth down the middle, a player with Luke's assets is a integral piece to that playoff team that needs to fill that position. So if we're listening to offers on him, it damn well better be a 2nd or an NHL ready prospect to come in and replace what he brings. Anything less no thanks!

If we trade Tatar and or Nyquist, maybe 2nds and 3rds are fine because we are basically trading them to free up cap space and get a little something in return for them.  If we are trading XO, he is basically a 7th D-man making over $1M, how many 7th D-men do we have now that make way less? XO for a late round pick is a no brainer because even if that pick never makes the NHL, we really aren't losing out by trading XO.  That is why Holland accepted what Philly offered for Petr.  He wasn't going to be in our plans, he wasn't going to be qualified, so he would've left for nothing. Even if the pick remains a 4th and we don't get the 2019 pick, it doesn't matter if that guy makes it really because we weren't going to have Petr here anyhow, so just having a player with a chance to make it  is better that nothing.

Why not have the same mindset on Green, you may ask? Well because Green is highly sought after by, according to Paul Woods, no less than 4 teams. Sure if he does come back, then getting "something" for him in the form of lower picks than a 1st is a bonus.  But there is the chance, if he wins a Cup somewhere, he may want to stay there and try to win more, so if we're trading a player that could be the chip that gets the dip for a team, PLUS he signs there for less and helps them remain favorites, we need to be compensated appropriately. Like stated many times, a 2nd from TPA or NSH, for example, is basically a 3rd, and Green is worth more than that. So IMO Green should garner either a 1st outright, an NHL ready player outright, or if we accept a 2nd it better include at LEAST a mid-to-near ready NHL prospect. If it's less than a 2nd, it damn well better include that NHL ready Prospect.

I realize that the TDL is full of surprises and let downs when it comes to what a fan is hoping to see, but honestly, for players who are still important members of this team now and the future, I hope that Holland just hangs up the phone if he receives any type of lowball offer like the one Toronto tried on him.

So:

Mike Green: 1st RND -or- NHL Ready Prospect -or- 2nd RND Mid-Near Ready NHL Prospect -or- Lower RND pick PLUS NHL Ready Prospect.

disney.com: 2nd RND pick -or- NHL Ready Prospect

Nyquist/Tatar/Howard: some kind of fair market value return in order to clear cap.

XO: Mid to later RND pick

 

* and yes I do realize they are probably not trading Howard now, but I list him because his name has been out there as a possibility, and if the offer is good, take it IMO.

 

I don’t dislike Glendog by any means, but a fourth line center is in no way worth more than a top six winger. If we only got a 3rd for Tatar or Nyquist, I’d be  pissed. We don’t need to clear cap.

And the only way I could see Glen getting us a 2nd is MAYBE if we retain half his cap hit and send a later pick back the other way. Don’t get me wrong, I would LOVE to get a 2nd for him straight up.. and I’d be damn impressed if we did. But I don’t see that ever happening. 

I don’t think XO has any trade value. He might even clear waivers.. 

 

Also, I agree with wanting an NHL ready prospect or a first for Green but I’m trying to not get my hopes up too high. Hah. Could see it settling to something like what NYR got for Grabner. A lot of fans would probably be disappointed, and I’d like a little more than that, but it wouldn’t surprise me if we got something along those lines. 

[LeftWinger 4,951]

2 hours ago, Euro_Twins said:

No is giving a 2nd for disney.com. No one. 

My point is, we don't need to move or are shopping Luke.  He is a very important player on our team.  He is a RH'd defensive minded center, PK'er, shutdown player that is sought after this time of year. If someone is calling us asking for his availability, then they better have an offer we cannot refuse because we have no pressing need to trade him. A 5th was insulting and a 2nd from a top 6 team is basically a very high 3rd, so IMO, no it's not over-payment from someone who feels they need him for his specific assets he brings.

Edited February 23, 2018 by LeftWinger

[LeftWinger 4,951]

20 minutes ago, amato said:

 

I don’t dislike Glendog by any means, but a fourth line center is in no way worth more than a top six winger. If we only got a 3rd for Tatar or Nyquist, I’d be  pissed. We don’t need to clear cap.

And the only way I could see Glen getting us a 2nd is MAYBE if we retain half his cap hit and send a later pick back the other way. Don’t get me wrong, I would LOVE to get a 2nd for him straight up.. and I’d be damn impressed if we did. But I don’t see that ever happening. 

I don’t think XO has any trade value. He might even clear waivers.. 

 

Also, I agree with wanting an NHL ready prospect or a first for Green but I’m trying to not get my hopes up too high. Hah. Could see it settling to something like what NYR got for Grabner. A lot of fans would probably be disappointed, and I’d like a little more than that, but it wouldn’t surprise me if we got something along those lines. 

I agree that we don't NEED to dump salary, unless Holland is setting up for a run at JT (which why wouldn't he) and yes Tatar and Nyquist shoud, on an even market, bring back a higher return than Glenny.

BUT

As stated, if we are clearing cap for a reason, then it is OUR need to move some higher paid players, which means, we may be forced to accept less than market value in order to move the money. Sure if a team is hot on one of them (like we heard NSH may be) then ya, we should get a higher return.  But if we are trading them for OUR benefit (cap space) then we'd have to get what we could get, because the prize in that exchange would be the cap space cleared rather than the asset received. Again though, in the case of disney.com, they called us, we weren't/aren't actively trying to get rid of him, Toronto obviously was very interested in the specific set of skills that Luke brings to the table, PLUS they are inter-divisional, they should have to pay up to our price, IF they are that interested in prying him away from us. If not, we keep him, because he is worth more to this team now and the future than a 5th round pick that may or may not ever see the NHL.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

Speaking of the salary dump.  The only reason we may want to dump salary is if Holland wants to run at JT or JVR for example. We have $12.8M in cap right now for next season. Which could be as high as $16.7M with Franzen's salary 100% on LTIR, even more if the cap goes up some. That should be plenty enough to re-sign ALL our RFA's, including Coreau as backup to Jimmy, maybe sign a mid-tier UFA (like we did with Witko) PLUS bring Green back on a lessor contract. But then we'd have basically the exact same team, maybe worse with the goaltending situation.  Holland had said that he feels that he needs to clear some cap space before July 1, so that puts us in the position of need, so again, we may be forced to accept less than market value to attain our goal.  But no, you are right, if we remain status quo we have no pressing need to clear cap, if we want to have a similar team as this year with no chance at making the team better via UFA, we can keep our guys and not have to clear cap in order to re-sign out important RFA's.

[amato 3,210]

12 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I agree that we don't NEED to dump salary, unless Holland is setting up for a run at JT (which why wouldn't he) and yes Tatar and Nyquist shoud, on an even market, bring back a higher return than Glenny.

BUT

As stated, if we are clearing cap for a reason, then it is OUR need to move some higher paid players, which means, we may be forced to accept less than market value in order to move the money. Sure if a team is hot on one of them (like we heard NSH may be) then ya, we should get a higher return.  But if we are trading them for OUR benefit (cap space) then we'd have to get what we could get, because the prize in that exchange would be the cap space cleared rather than the asset received. Again though, in the case of disney.com, they called us, we weren't/aren't actively trying to get rid of him, Toronto obviously was very interested in the specific set of skills that Luke brings to the table, PLUS they are inter-divisional, they should have to pay up to our price, IF they are that interested in prying him away from us. If not, we keep him, because he is worth more to this team now and the future than a 5th round pick that may or may not ever see the NHL.

Alright yeah, I get the main points you’re trying to convey. A second is just more than we could ever hope for. Maybe a third with retained salary.. but I do think that Glen means more to Kenny, Blashill, etc than we’d ever get back in a trade anyway, so I guess it doesn’t really matter who else wants him. 

I do disagree with the idea of shedding cap, THEN going after JT. You go after him first and if you get him, then you shed the cap. It could hurt the return a little of course, but I think there are ways to where it wouldn’t result in us completely giving talent away. 

Edited February 23, 2018 by amato

[xtrememachine1 795]

22 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't understand this mentality. Green is and has been our best defenseman, and he would continue to be just that for another couple seasons (if we re-sign him). If we want / need to shed cap space, it can be done without denying our best defenseman another contract. If he truly does want to stay in Detroit, and he doesn't want to test free agency, he should be willing to take a pay cut to do so. I'm thinking he will be traded at the deadline, come back to Detroit for somewhere in the $4.5-5.5M range for another 2-3 seasons. And in my opinion, that's well worth it for a defenseman that can still put up 30-40 points a season.

Well you basically have this All Star defenseman in his 30s, on a team that is focusing on a youth movement and needs cap space to sign these younger (potential) superstars.  Re-signing Green in the offseason will make signing Larkin, Mantha, AA a lot more difficult.  It'll be easier next off season after some other contracts drop off, but right now it doesn't make sense to commit money to Green.  What other players do you drop to make cap space?  The demand for players like Kronwall, Nyquist, Tatar, Abdelkader, Helm probably isn't high due to their performance and contract situation.  I'm just envisioning a nightmare situation like we had with AA and we have almost no cap space and we have a good young player that can't be signed except this time its with 3 good young players.

[chaps80 1,591]

32 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Green does need to be traded because he's a UFA. However, he doesn't need to be traded because we need the cap space or the roster spot. Trading him for assets and bringing him back is the best thing for this team, both short term and long term.

I do think he would take less than he's making now. Sure, other teams would be interested in him, but he's stated several times that he wants to stay in Detroit. If that is true, he should be willing to take a pay cut.

Why would you not take him back? He's far and away our best defenseman, and no one in the organization would be able to come close to replacing him. It makes no sense...

Heh last time I agreed with you about not needing cap space, everyone jumped on it. But I still agree. Holland will have some open cap. Maybe he can make a few moves after the deadline for lower value guys and clear some more.

I said before the Mrazek trade that he may take less to stick around due to his value being lower, but many didn’t agree with that. With Green, his value isn’t low. Once he hits UFA he’ll get offers for at least what he was making in Detroit, maybe a bit more if there’s a bidding war. I can’t see him turning down that kinda money to sign in Detroit for $3-4 million per heading into a rebuild. I’m sure he’d like to win a Cup sooner than later. The one thing that may make him resign in Detroit for less (if he really likes it that much there) would be if he won a Cup with the team he was traded to this deadline.

As for not really wanting him back, he can’t help much with the current roster headed for bad times. Save the money. Play one of the kids instead. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

50 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

According to Paul Woods on last nights broadcast, on average, if a player is drafted in the 3rd round he only has a 25% chance of making the NHL.  Of course the lower the round, the less likely he is to make it.

With that being said, unless you are trying to dump salary (Nyquist/Tatar) or the player no longer fits into your plans/not wanted or is replaceable from within (XO/Mrazek) there is no absolutely no reason to accept any draft pick lower than a 2nd unless a prospect is coming back

If the player is sought after for the experience and/or intangibles that he brings yet you really don't NEED to trade that player (Green/Glenny/Howard) you hold all the cards.

Anything less than a 1st or an NHL ready prospect for Green from a Cup Favorite is an insult and Kenny should just keep him and re-sign him. If All TPA wants to offer is a 2nd, which in reality will more than likely be a #58-#62, basically a high 3rd, then I would hang up the phone.  If they throw an NHL ready prospect in with that 2nd, now I'm interested. If indeed Green wants to come back, we do not NEED to trade him for a pick that has an average of 25% or worse chance of making the NHL in 4-5 years.

disney.com is a very integral part of our team.  He is a defensive minded RH'd center that logs a good amount of icetime, kills penalties and is matched up with teams top players a lot of times. His cap hit isn't too bad considering what you are paying Helm and Abby to be on his line most nights. For Toronto to offer a 5th round pick for a player with Luke's intangibles is insulting.  Kudos to Holland for asking for a 2nd round pick. That 5th round draft pick will take at least 4-5 years to even be NHL ready, if he makes it at all.  All the while Toronto would get a rare RH'd center with the defensive prowess of Glenny and we get a player that more than likely will never see an NHL ice surface outside of prospect camp.  I am not saying Glenny is the hands down Selke winner for his ability, but when it comes to depth down the middle, a player with Luke's assets is a integral piece to that playoff team that needs to fill that position. So if we're listening to offers on him, it damn well better be a 2nd or an NHL ready prospect to come in and replace what he brings. Anything less no thanks!

If we trade Tatar and or Nyquist, maybe 2nds and 3rds are fine because we are basically trading them to free up cap space and get a little something in return for them.  If we are trading XO, he is basically a 7th D-man making over $1M, how many 7th D-men do we have now that make way less? XO for a late round pick is a no brainer because even if that pick never makes the NHL, we really aren't losing out by trading XO.  That is why Holland accepted what Philly offered for Petr.  He wasn't going to be in our plans, he wasn't going to be qualified, so he would've left for nothing. Even if the pick remains a 4th and we don't get the 2019 pick, it doesn't matter if that guy makes it really because we weren't going to have Petr here anyhow, so just having a player with a chance to make it  is better that nothing.

Why not have the same mindset on Green, you may ask? Well because Green is highly sought after by, according to Paul Woods, no less than 4 teams. Sure if he does come back, then getting "something" for him in the form of lower picks than a 1st is a bonus.  But there is the chance, if he wins a Cup somewhere, he may want to stay there and try to win more, so if we're trading a player that could be the chip that gets the dip for a team, PLUS he signs there for less and helps them remain favorites, we need to be compensated appropriately. Like stated many times, a 2nd from TPA or NSH, for example, is basically a 3rd, and Green is worth more than that. So IMO Green should garner either a 1st outright, an NHL ready player outright, or if we accept a 2nd it better include at LEAST a mid-to-near ready NHL prospect. If it's less than a 2nd, it damn well better include that NHL ready Prospect.

I realize that the TDL is full of surprises and let downs when it comes to what a fan is hoping to see, but honestly, for players who are still important members of this team now and the future, I hope that Holland just hangs up the phone if he receives any type of lowball offer like the one Toronto tried on him.

So:

Mike Green: 1st RND -or- NHL Ready Prospect -or- 2nd RND Mid-Near Ready NHL Prospect -or- Lower RND pick PLUS NHL Ready Prospect.

disney.com: 2nd RND pick -or- NHL Ready Prospect

Nyquist/Tatar/Howard: some kind of fair market value return in order to clear cap.

XO: Mid to later RND pick

 

* and yes I do realize they are probably not trading Howard now, but I list him because his name has been out there as a possibility, and if the offer is good, take it IMO.

Market dictates value, not any one player or any one team. You can't say a player is worth a 1st round pick / top prospect, if there is no team willing to pay that price. And if your a team that should be selling (like we are), you should be selling any and every UFA that you have to the highest bidder. You don't hang onto Green, just because your perceived value isn't there. If the most a team offers is a 3rd round pick, you take it. Fortunately for us, that won't be the case.

You're going to refuse picks just because they only have a 25% chance of making the NHL? That's still a 25% chance you get an NHL player. 2nd round picks only have about a 40% chance of becoming NHL players. 1st round picks are around 80% chance. It is possible that we miss out on our 1st(s), 2nd(s) and hit a homerun with one of our 3rds. Look at 2011 when we missed on all three 2nd round picks (Jurco, Ouellet and Sproul). Or 2012 when we took Frk in the 2nd round and (who I assume is your favorite current Red Wing) Athanasiou in the 4th (which holds about a 20% chance of becoming an NHL player).

We do NEED to trade Green, even if the return is underwhelming.

Also, the fact that you see more value in Glendening than Nyquist or Tatar is laughable. I don't necessarily want to give Glendening away, but a 3rd or 4th round pick would be fair value for him. Of course Holland started high, and Toronto started low, which means his value is likely somewhere in between. Glendening is not a "integral part of our team". He's a replaceable 4th liner. If we move him, we promote Turgeon and lose very little short term and likely gain the better player long term. Nyquist / Tatar are both worth much more. And neither should be moved as a cap dump. We don't need the cap space, and we don't have any wingers in the system banging on the door to take their spots. Svechnikov is struggling and aside from him, there's no one ready. The chance of Svech coming in and replacing Nyquist's / Tatar's production is slim to none.

Green - Hopefully a 1st or high end prospect, but you take best offer on the table.

Glendening - 3rd or 4th round pick, but doesn't need to me moved.

Nyquist / Tatar - 2nd round pick (and maybe a prospect), but don't need to be moved.

Ouellet - late round pick, but probably doesn't have any value.

Howard - 2nd round pick, but shouldn't be moved. We do not want a tandem of Coreau and McCollum...

[chaps80 1,591]

49 minutes ago, amato said:

 

I don’t dislike Glendog by any means, but a fourth line center is in no way worth more than a top six winger. If we only got a 3rd for Tatar or Nyquist, I’d be  pissed. We don’t need to clear cap.

And the only way I could see Glen getting us a 2nd is MAYBE if we retain half his cap hit and send a later pick back the other way. Don’t get me wrong, I would LOVE to get a 2nd for him straight up.. and I’d be damn impressed if we did. But I don’t see that ever happening. 

I don’t think XO has any trade value. He might even clear waivers.. 

 

Also, I agree with wanting an NHL ready prospect or a first for Green but I’m trying to not get my hopes up too high. Hah. Could see it settling to something like what NYR got for Grabner. A lot of fans would probably be disappointed, and I’d like a little more than that, but it wouldn’t surprise me if we got something along those lines. 

The fact that Holland told the Leafs he wanted a 2nd for a fourth liner still baffles me. He’s worth more than a 5th, but not a 2nd. 

Im not surprised the Leafs didn’t bite.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

He's also at a 58% FO% which is good for top 10 in the league. I am not saying that Luke has more fair market value than Tatar or Nyquist, but when a team calls you and asks for a specific player because they NEED what that player brings, it raises his personal value.

Again, in the hypothetical situation that we need to, if we are in a position to where we want to shed cap, then we'd be calling teams asking them to take payers from us, and that in turn, lowers their return value because we need to trade them.

In a case like this only would Luke's value possibly garner a better return because he is wanted for his specific skill set rather than us just trying to dump him for whatever we can get...Like Mrazek.

Outside of possibly driving the price up for Tatar/Nyquist because teams are calling for them, if we are up against the cap come off season and need to dump, we are in a position of weakness at that time.  If a team is feinding after someone we have and don't necessarily want to deal, you better come in with an offer better than a 5th round pick.

Hell, look at when we traded for KFQ, Holland felt he really needed this guy on our team for specific reason and he had to pay up to get him. In no ******* reality in this universe is KFQ, a run of the mill left handed average d-man worth a 1st round pick, unless some GM feels that he fills an absolute specific need and/or hole on the team. Honestly to this day, I still cannot figure out what the f*** hole was so deep that we had to give a 1st round pick for KFQ!

[krsmith17 7,191]

42 minutes ago, xtrememachine1 said:

Well you basically have this All Star defenseman in his 30s, on a team that is focusing on a youth movement and needs cap space to sign these younger (potential) superstars.  Re-signing Green in the offseason will make signing Larkin, Mantha, AA a lot more difficult.  It'll be easier next off season after some other contracts drop off, but right now it doesn't make sense to commit money to Green.  What other players do you drop to make cap space?  The demand for players like Kronwall, Nyquist, Tatar, Abdelkader, Helm probably isn't high due to their performance and contract situation.  I'm just envisioning a nightmare situation like we had with AA and we have almost no cap space and we have a good young player that can't be signed except this time its with 3 good young players.

That's why you lock up Larkin, Mantha and Athanasiou first, and then work on a deal with Green. If you need cap space you move one of your mid tier roster players (they can be moved). You don't let your best defenseman walk.

40 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

Heh last time I agreed with you about not needing cap space, everyone jumped on it. But I still agree. Holland will have some open cap. Maybe he can make a few moves after the deadline for lower value guys and clear some more.

I said before the Mrazek trade that he may take less to stick around due to his value being lower, but many didn’t agree with that. With Green, his value isn’t low. Once he hits UFA he’ll get offers for at least what he was making in Detroit, maybe a bit more if there’s a bidding war. I can’t see him turning down that kinda money to sign in Detroit for $3-4 million per heading into a rebuild. I’m sure he’d like to win a Cup sooner than later. The one thing that may make him resign in Detroit for less (if he really likes it that much there) would be if he won a Cup with the team he was traded to this deadline.

As for not really wanting him back, he can’t help much with the current roster headed for bad times. Save the money. Play one of the kids instead. 

He will be offered more, but why does it matter if he truly wants to stay in Detroit? If he wants to chase the money, let him. No one said anything about $3-4M, but $4.5-5M isn't out of the realm of possibility.

He absolutely can help this current roster, as well as the guys almost ready. We don't want to become Edmonton, Buffalo or Arizona. You still need good players and a good environment for the kids coming up. Green would be an ideal player for Hronek to learn from. Anyway, I want Green back. Hopefully we trade him in the next couple days, and re-sign him this summer.

38 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

The fact that Holland told the Leafs he wanted a 2nd for a fourth liner still baffles me. He’s worth more than a 5th, but not a 2nd. 

Im not surprised the Leafs didn’t bite.

You never tell a team you want what you believe the player is actually worth. You start high. That's how negotiations work. If Holland's ask was a 2nd, he likely believes he's worth a 3rd, and would probably even accept a 4th. A 5th is a little low in my opinion. But again, all a part of negotiations...

[chaps80 1,591]

6 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

He's also at a 58% FO% which is good for top 10 in the league. I am not saying that Luke has more fair market value than Tatar or Nyquist, but when a team calls you and asks for a specific player because they NEED what that player brings, it raises his personal value.

Again, in the hypothetical situation that we need to, if we are in a position to where we want to shed cap, then we'd be calling teams asking them to take payers from us, and that in turn, lowers their return value because we need to trade them.

In a case like this only would Luke's value possibly garner a better return because he is wanted for his specific skill set rather than us just trying to dump him for whatever we can get...Like Mrazek.

Outside of possibly driving the price up for Tatar/Nyquist because teams are calling for them, if we are up against the cap come off season and need to dump, we are in a position of weakness at that time.  If a team is feinding after someone we have and don't necessarily want to deal, you better come in with an offer better than a 5th round pick.

Hell, look at when we traded for KFQ, Holland felt he really needed this guy on our team for specific reason and he had to pay up to get him. In no ******* reality in this universe is KFQ, a run of the mill left handed average d-man worth a 1st round pick, unless some GM feels that he fills an absolute specific need and/or hole on the team. Honestly to this day, I still cannot figure out what the f*** hole was so deep that we had to give a 1st round pick for KFQ!

Andddd guess who Yzerman took with that first?

Vasilevskiy.

Hahaha 

 

[amato 3,210]

44 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

The fact that Holland told the Leafs he wanted a 2nd for a fourth liner still baffles me. He’s worth more than a 5th, but not a 2nd. 

Im not surprised the Leafs didn’t bite.

My guess is they wanted us to retain some of the cap hit and holland actually wanted a third. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

10 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

He's also at a 58% FO% which is good for top 10 in the league. I am not saying that Luke has more fair market value than Tatar or Nyquist, but when a team calls you and asks for a specific player because they NEED what that player brings, it raises his personal value.

Again, in the hypothetical situation that we need to, if we are in a position to where we want to shed cap, then we'd be calling teams asking them to take payers from us, and that in turn, lowers their return value because we need to trade them.

In a case like this only would Luke's value possibly garner a better return because he is wanted for his specific skill set rather than us just trying to dump him for whatever we can get...Like Mrazek.

Outside of possibly driving the price up for Tatar/Nyquist because teams are calling for them, if we are up against the cap come off season and need to dump, we are in a position of weakness at that time.  If a team is feinding after someone we have and don't necessarily want to deal, you better come in with an offer better than a 5th round pick.

Hell, look at when we traded for KFQ, Holland felt he really needed this guy on our team for specific reason and he had to pay up to get him. In no ******* reality in this universe is KFQ, a run of the mill left handed average d-man worth a 1st round pick, unless some GM feels that he fills an absolute specific need and/or hole on the team. Honestly to this day, I still cannot figure out what the f*** hole was so deep that we had to give a 1st round pick for KFQ!

That hypothetical situation you speak of isn't a reality though. Any players that are rumored to move, are because teams are inquiring about them, not because Holland is trying to get rid of them. Holland is not trying to get rid of Nyquist or Tatar any more than he's trying to get rid of Glendening. The only player Holland is (should be) actively shopping is Green, because he's a pending UFA.

[chaps80 1,591]

8 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

That's why you lock up Larkin, Mantha and Athanasiou first, and then work on a deal with Green. If you need cap space you move one of your mid tier roster players (they can be moved). You don't let your best defenseman walk.

He will be offered more, but why does it matter if he truly wants to stay in Detroit? If he wants to chase the money, let him. No one said anything about $3-4M, but $4.5-5M isn't out of the realm of possibility.

He absolutely can help this current roster, as well as the guys almost ready. We don't want to become Edmonton, Buffalo or Arizona. You still need good players and a good environment for the kids coming up. Green would be an ideal player for Hronek to learn from. Anyway, I want Green back. Hopefully we trade him in the next couple days, and re-sign him this summer.

You never tell a team you want what you believe the player is actually worth. You start high. That's how negotiations work. If Holland's ask was a 2nd, he likely believes he's worth a 3rd, and would probably even accept a 4th. A 5th is a little low in my opinion. But again, all a part of negotiations...

Kronwall is still here to learn from. Lol

I understand starting higher on a player, but asking for a 2nd for a fourth liner would just make me hang up the phone. I’d think the guy was high.

[krsmith17 7,191]

10 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

Kronwall is still here to learn from. Lol

I understand starting higher on a player, but asking for a 2nd for a fourth liner would just make me hang up the phone. I’d think the guy was high.

The Leafs traded a 2nd and a prospect to Tampa for a 4th line center (Boyle) at last year's deadline. Holland would be an idiot not to ask for a 2nd for Glendening.

[chaps80 1,591]

2 hours ago, amato said:

 

I don’t dislike Glendog by any means, but a fourth line center is in no way worth more than a top six winger. If we only got a 3rd for Tatar or Nyquist, I’d be  pissed. We don’t need to clear cap.

And the only way I could see Glen getting us a 2nd is MAYBE if we retain half his cap hit and send a later pick back the other way. Don’t get me wrong, I would LOVE to get a 2nd for him straight up.. and I’d be damn impressed if we did. But I don’t see that ever happening. 

I don’t think XO has any trade value. He might even clear waivers.. 

 

Also, I agree with wanting an NHL ready prospect or a first for Green but I’m trying to not get my hopes up too high. Hah. Could see it settling to something like what NYR got for Grabner. A lot of fans would probably be disappointed, and I’d like a little more than that, but it wouldn’t surprise me if we got something along those lines. 

I hate the idea of trading Tatar. Nyquist I’m 50/50. They should be way down the list of contracts to purge. But they have to trade good young players if they want to cut cap. The ones that need to go can’t be moved, unless Holland holds onto some salary and sends a sweetener prospect/pick. And even then..

They shouldn’t worry about Gus and Tats right now. No real need to. Hang onto them, and wait a couple other crap deals with only a bit left out to expiration, like Kronwall, Howard, and Errorsson. 

[LeftWinger 4,951]

We have ZERO need to move Glenny. His cap does not and will not hurt us in the future, he is our best faceoff man, kills a lot of penalties and is relied upon to shutdown top players on some nights. To me, a 3rd, 4th or 5th is not worth trading him. I am not so sure Turgeon is ready to step in and replace Luke as of yet. Besides a 3rd round pick from a top 5 team, which is where Toronto sits ATM, is basically a 4th rounder and the 5th they offered, yep a high 6th! Insult! I feel the ONLY reason we accept anything less than a 2nd is if we were actively trying to get rid of him for cap reasons or personal reason (Mrazek) which we are not, so if Toronto feels they need what Luke brings, and we all know how much Babcock loves him, then they better ante up or he's not for sale. Like mentioned, his cap is not hurting us now, nor will it be hurting us throughout his contract. With the  $12.8M plus Franzen LTIR (TTL $16.7M) we'll have plenty of money for ALL our RFA's plus enough to offer Green a lower returning salary (if he wants to.) IF we sign JT and find ourselves behind the Cap 8-Ball, then we will have to shed salary in the form of Nyquist/Tatar/Abby/Helm for example and we will be dealing from a point of weakness with the returns not even getting us a 3rd, at least not without conditions.

[brett 1,029]

Yea I don't see the need or want to trade glendenning unless you're getting a 2nd. His salary doesn't bother me like helm abs and neilson

[amato 3,210]

45 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

I hate the idea of trading Tatar. Nyquist I’m 50/50. They should be way down the list of contracts to purge. But they have to trade good young players if they want to cut cap. The ones that need to go can’t be moved, unless Holland holds onto some salary and sends a sweetener prospect/pick. And even then..

They shouldn’t worry about Gus and Tats right now. No real need to. Hang onto them, and wait a couple other crap deals with only a bit left out to expiration, like Kronwall, Howard, and Errorsson. 

Right. I’m ok with trading them but it has to be in a deal that makes sense. Not just a cap dump. 

[LeftWinger 4,951]

If we want to be players in the JT sweeps, or luck out and sign him, they will be just a cap dump, with very little return. But I think we'd survive.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

Well, there one UFA down:

 

Edited March 14, 2018 by LeftWinger

[amato 3,210]

34 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

If we want to be players in the JT sweeps, or luck out and sign him, they will be just a cap dump, with very little return. But I think we'd survive.

 

The "JT sweeps" will be trying to luck out and sign him. They're in the playoff hunt and won't be trading their best player. And if they don't re-sign him, trading his negotiating rights this off season likely won't matter because at that point, why wouldn't he just wait until free agency? Unless there's somewhere else he really wants to go. But, I would say he probably re-signs in NY eventually.

But yeah, if we luck out and get him (GOD I WISH), there will definitely have to be some cap management to make it work.