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Neomaxizoomdweebie    3,083

Neomaxizoomdweebie
Posted
11 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't think it's a given that he will be given an opportunity this season. And to be honest, I don't even care if he is. What I care about, and what this is all about, is IF he proves himself in training camp / preseason (the way I think he did last year) and isn't given an opportunity, that's when it would bother me. I just hate that this organization keeps talking about how a player needs to "steal a job", when in my opinion, Hicketts did that last year and wasn't rewarded.

My argument isn't that Hicketts should be on this roster, I could care less about that. My argument is that after his showing last year, he should have at least been given an opportunity. If he had started the season on the roster and struggled, whatever, send him down. I am not at all invested in Hicketts as a player. If he succeeds and becomes a bottom pairing defenseman, great. If not, no big loss.

Svechnikov is in the same situation as Hicketts going into this season. He's on the bubble and needs to steal a job, correct? What if he comes into camp, plays great, puts up 6-7 points in 4 preseason games (more than any player on the team), and gets sent down? Would fans have any reason / right to complain about that?

The only way I see a D making his way onto the roster to start the season is if he looks like he's ready to become a top 4 D at the NHL level. Hicketts doesn't project that high, so until some bottom pair D are moved out, he will be sent down to start the season. TBH, I wouldn't mind that. I think bringing him up later in the season (or as a regular call up) might actually be better for him so that he gets a significant taste of the NHL without him being broken down jumping right into a full NHL schedule. Would I like to see Hicketts on the big roster? Yes. Do I prefer him over Ouellet for example? Absolutely. But I wouldn't be too upset if he started the season in GR because I trust the Coaching Staff to make the decisions that are best for the individual players and the team.

As for F, the same applies here. Unless a kid is out of waiver exemptions or he looks like he's a top 6 F, he will probably start the season in GR and be brought up later in the season. Svech to me seems like a middle 6 winger at this point. Way too many guys like that to leap ahead of to justify a permanent roster spot to start the season (plus he's still waiver exempt), so he likely starts in GR. Rass on the other hand looks like he could be a future 2C. Plus, he can't be sent down to GR, so I think this actually makes it more likely that he starts the season with the Wings rather than be sent back down to juniors. Would I like to see Svech and Rass on the roster to start the season? Yes. But again, I won't be disappointed if they aren't. Blashill and Holland will do what is best for the team. If that isn't Svech and Rass, then so be it. I will still sleep just fine.

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ChristopherReevesLegs    7,022

ChristopherReevesLegs
Posted
4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't think it's a given that he will be given an opportunity this season. And to be honest, I don't even care if he is. What I care about, and what this is all about, is IF he proves himself in training camp / preseason (the way I think he did last year) and isn't given an opportunity, that's when it would bother me. I just hate that this organization keeps talking about how a player needs to "steal a job", when in my opinion, Hicketts did that last year and wasn't rewarded.

My argument isn't that Hicketts should be on this roster, I could care less about that. My argument is that after his showing last year, he should have at least been given an opportunity. If he had started the season on the roster and struggled, whatever, send him down. I am not at all invested in Hicketts as a player. If he succeeds and becomes a bottom pairing defenseman, great. If not, no big loss.

Svechnikov is in the same situation as Hicketts going into this season. He's on the bubble and needs to steal a job, correct? What if he comes into camp, plays great, puts up 6-7 points in 4 preseason games (more than any player on the team), and gets sent down? Would fans have any reason / right to complain about that?

Here's where I'd like to make a distinction: Having a good camp versus stealing a job.

Did Hicketts have a good camp last year? Yes, I think we both agree.

Did Hicketts steal a job at camp? This is maybe where we disagree.

I think to steal a job at camp you have to blow the doors off the team. I mean you have to have Larkin level skill, and even more so maybe as a 5'8" player. Hicketts just doesn't have that, at least not yet anyway. Did Hicketts have a good camp? Yes. Did some players have not-so-good camps? Yes, but that doesn't mean I'm now clamoring to trade those players away just because of one bad camp.. just like I'm not clamoring to get Hicketts on to the roster after one good camp.

Camp is camp, it's such a ridiculously small sample size that I don't think you can gain a lot of insight from it. And I think Hicketts is a superb example of that sampling error is action... He had the few games that were great, but then his AHL season was completely sub-par. That confirms, in my mind, that your operating under a premise that is couched in sampling bias.

Anyhoo, I'd see your POV more if Hicketts was say 24 years old... At that point I'd at least understand that it's almost the end of the line for this player, let's see what we've got in him.. But he was 21, he's got plenty of time yet to hone his craft and be ready to do good when the big club calls again. So my attitude is: Good camp kid, build on it.

 

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Buppy    1,720

Buppy
Posted
3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't think it's a given that he will be given an opportunity this season. And to be honest, I don't even care if he is. What I care about, and what this is all about, is IF he proves himself in training camp / preseason (the way I think he did last year) and isn't given an opportunity, that's when it would bother me. I just hate that this organization keeps talking about how a player needs to "steal a job", when in my opinion, Hicketts did that last year and wasn't rewarded.

My argument isn't that Hicketts should be on this roster, I could care less about that. My argument is that after his showing last year, he should have at least been given an opportunity. If he had started the season on the roster and struggled, whatever, send him down. I am not at all invested in Hicketts as a player. If he succeeds and becomes a bottom pairing defenseman, great. If not, no big loss.

Svechnikov is in the same situation as Hicketts going into this season. He's on the bubble and needs to steal a job, correct? What if he comes into camp, plays great, puts up 6-7 points in 4 preseason games (more than any player on the team), and gets sent down? Would fans have any reason / right to complain about that?

If by "given an opportunity" you mean guaranteed a spot in the lineup, you're right. That is not, and should not be, a given. You act like the team is lying when the truth is that they just don't share your opinions. Preseason is not a tournament where the guy with the most points wins the roster spot. Like 9 said, it's too small a sample to be given too much weight. Training camp doesn't start with a clean slate. The team has a depth chart, based off all the evaluations and history for each player to this point. TC/preseason can modify the list, but not completely replace it. A player could have the best camp and still not move up enough to take a spot. Or a bad camp and not fall too far. For established veterans, TC/preseason is probably meaningless. If Glendening puts up 6-7 points in 4 games, we're all going to know he's still Glendening. Same is true if he puts up zero. The team seems to be high enough on Rasmussen already that he may not even need a great camp. 

That doesn't mean Hicketts' performance in camp wasn't rewarded though. He did earn a call-up, despite his poor AHL season and despite all the players performing better. Same with Svech. You're not complaining that he was called up ahead of Tangradi or Puempel, so I know you get what I'm talking about. If Svech has a great preseason it will increase his value; it will be rewarded. Maybe with a full-time spot, or maybe just extra consideration further down the road. Every bit of evidence we have points to that being true.

Of course management isn't going to be perfect in judging when a player is "ready" or better than whatever other option was chosen, nor would I expect you (or anyone) to always agree with them. But there's a long road between disagreeing with a particular decision and imagining an organizational conspiracy against kids. 

2 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

The only way I see a D making his way onto the roster to start the season is if he looks like he's ready to become a top 4 D at the NHL level. Hicketts doesn't project that high, so until some bottom pair D are moved out, he will be sent down to start the season. TBH, I wouldn't mind that. I think bringing him up later in the season (or as a regular call up) might actually be better for him so that he gets a significant taste of the NHL without him being broken down jumping right into a full NHL schedule. Would I like to see Hicketts on the big roster? Yes. Do I prefer him over Ouellet for example? Absolutely. But I wouldn't be too upset if he started the season in GR because I trust the Coaching Staff to make the decisions that are best for the individual players and the team.

As for F, the same applies here. Unless a kid is out of waiver exemptions or he looks like he's a top 6 F, he will probably start the season in GR and be brought up later in the season. Svech to me seems like a middle 6 winger at this point. Way too many guys like that to leap ahead of to justify a permanent roster spot to start the season (plus he's still waiver exempt), so he likely starts in GR. Rass on the other hand looks like he could be a future 2C. Plus, he can't be sent down to GR, so I think this actually makes it more likely that he starts the season with the Wings rather than be sent back down to juniors. Would I like to see Svech and Rass on the roster to start the season? Yes. But again, I won't be disappointed if they aren't. Blashill and Holland will do what is best for the team. If that isn't Svech and Rass, then so be it. I will still sleep just fine.

I would be surprised if there isn't at least one kid moved up on defense. I think the team has seen enough of Ouellet, and one of Hicketts, Hronek, Cholo, or Sulak will take his place. Cholo and Hronek I'd think would also have to pass someone else though, as I doubt we'd want them up if they aren't going to play every day. If Green goes, I could see two of the kids making it.

Basically the same at forward. I think we'll see at least one. A kid with potential like Ras or Svech will need to show they're an every day player, whereas someone like Turgeon could be used as roster filler. I think Ras will get at least the 9 game tryout, unless he just blows it in camp. Svech likely has some work to do to make up for last year.

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krsmith17    7,191

krsmith17
Posted

@ChristopherReevesLegs @Buppy I don't think we're that far apart afterall. Good points and I agree with most of what you're both saying. I think the thing we disagree on, is the level of impact pre-season should have on a player making the team out of camp. Of course it shouldn't be the only factor, but if a player lights it up in pre-season it should be considered. In that situation, I'd like to see the young player given a look earlier in the regular season, that's all.

I know it may not seem like it because we've been discussing the dude the past several pages, but I could honestly care less if Hicketts makes the team. It's not about that for me. I just want players that play well, to be rewarded, and to me, that starts with training camp and preseason.

Since you brought up Turgeon, and he's probably more of the Hicketts equivalent of forwards, he had a strong season last year, similar to Hicketts the year before. What if he comes into camp, and outplays a bunch of bottom six guys? Do you still send him down? If so, fair enough, we disagree on that. If it were my decision I'd keep him up, and see if he could replicate that level of play in the regular season. Let him try to build on the confidence, rather than sending him down right away...

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SwedeLundin77    460

SwedeLundin77
Posted
17 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

What about Russo?  He has been awesome in the AHL.  His reward?  More AHL.  

Russo got a look in 2016/17 and he was invisible. He played in 19 games where he registered 0 points, 2 PIM, and a +2. I remember watching him and half the time I didn't even know he was out there because he did absolutely nothing to impress. I'm fairly certain the coaching staff thought the same thing. Talk to me when Hicketts gets a 19 game stint. Another example of how success at the AHL level doesn't necessarily translate to the NHL. I am right there with @krsmith17 in believing that strong play in training camp and preseason ought to be rewarded with playing time during the regular season, but that I am not saying that I believe Hicketts will be anything more than a 5/6 in the NHL, if that. His games played last season, to me, prove he deserves a longer look. What better a time than when we are in a rebuild to truly evaluate your talent at the NHL level.

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ChristopherReevesLegs    7,022

ChristopherReevesLegs
Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

Russo got a look in 2016/17 and he was invisible. He played in 19 games where he registered 0 points, 2 PIM, and a +2. I remember watching him and half the time I didn't even know he was out there because he did absolutely nothing to impress. I'm fairly certain the coaching staff thought the same thing. Talk to me when Hicketts gets a 19 game stint. Another example of how success at the AHL level doesn't necessarily translate to the NHL. I am right there with @krsmith17 in believing that strong play in training camp and preseason ought to be rewarded with playing time during the regular season, but that I am not saying that I believe Hicketts will be anything more than a 5/6 in the NHL, if that. His games played last season, to me, prove he deserves a longer look. What better a time than when we are in a rebuild to truly evaluate your talent at the NHL level.

Oh, you're back. Hard to follow? You're wrong on this one, but that's ok, you''ll get used to it.

Edited by ChristopherReevesLegs

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ChristopherReevesLegs    7,022

ChristopherReevesLegs
Posted

There was a clause in Trotz's contract that extends him by 2 years if he won the cup, but since coaches salaries have exploded he'd rather test the market and get dat money says Friedman

Lou's gonna pull him over to the Island and their defense will be norris bois by the end of the season. You heard it here first folks.

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SwedeLundin77    460

SwedeLundin77
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Oh, you're back. Hard to follow? You're wrong on this one, but that's ok, you''ll get used to it.

Just a lazy response right there.

If Holland doesn't, at the very least, pursue Trotz and make an offer, then he's crazy.

Edited by SwedeLundin77

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ChristopherReevesLegs    7,022

ChristopherReevesLegs
Posted
3 minutes ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

Just a lazy response right there.

If Holland doesn't, at the very least, pursue Trotz and make an offer, then he's crazy.

I learn from the pros

On 6/16/2018 at 11:18 PM, SwedeLundin77 said:

We have and you’re wrong on this one. But that’s okay, you’ll get used to it.

 

On 6/17/2018 at 8:57 AM, SwedeLundin77 said:

Hard to follow? We've already laid out our argument for Hicketts getting a shot. 

 

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Buppy    1,720

Buppy
Posted
11 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

...Since you brought up Turgeon, and he's probably more of the Hicketts equivalent of forwards, he had a strong season last year, similar to Hicketts the year before. What if he comes into camp, and outplays a bunch of bottom six guys? Do you still send him down? If so, fair enough, we disagree on that. If it were my decision I'd keep him up, and see if he could replicate that level of play in the regular season. Let him try to build on the confidence, rather than sending him down right away...

Somewhat difficult question since we don't have a full complement of established forwards. It's likely to be a competition between several kids for at least one spot. 

Looking at what we have so far I'd say Larkin, Zetterberg, Nyquist, Mantha, AA, Bertuzzi, Abdelkader, Nielsen, and Helm are all above any level Turgeon could plausibly reach. If we sign someone like Vanek or better, they'd go in that list as well. Turgeon just hasn't done enough yet to rise that much in one camp. So far he's a notch below where even Abby, Helm, or Glendening were when they were in GR; also below Sheahan, Andersson, and Emmerton, and no shortage of others who never even made the NHL. He has a lot of work to do. 

Ras and Svech would probably have to perform poorly in addition to Turgeon playing well. I'm doubtful he could be good enough to even reach Glendening's level, but maybe. Frk and Witko would be within reach, and if that was going to be an every day spot in the lineup I'd want the best player. If it were just for a spot in the pressbox I wouldn't care. 

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krsmith17    7,191

krsmith17
Posted
29 minutes ago, Buppy said:

Somewhat difficult question since we don't have a full complement of established forwards. It's likely to be a competition between several kids for at least one spot. 

Looking at what we have so far I'd say Larkin, Zetterberg, Nyquist, Mantha, AA, Bertuzzi, Abdelkader, Nielsen, and Helm are all above any level Turgeon could plausibly reach. If we sign someone like Vanek or better, they'd go in that list as well. Turgeon just hasn't done enough yet to rise that much in one camp. So far he's a notch below where even Abby, Helm, or Glendening were when they were in GR; also below Sheahan, Andersson, and Emmerton, and no shortage of others who never even made the NHL. He has a lot of work to do. 

Ras and Svech would probably have to perform poorly in addition to Turgeon playing well. I'm doubtful he could be good enough to even reach Glendening's level, but maybe. Frk and Witko would be within reach, and if that was going to be an every day spot in the lineup I'd want the best player. If it were just for a spot in the pressbox I wouldn't care. 

Are you talking this year? Or in general (long term)?

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SwedeLundin77    460

SwedeLundin77
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I learn from the pros

 

 

Double lazy. You're on double secret probation, sir!

 

2 hours ago, Buppy said:

Somewhat difficult question since we don't have a full complement of established forwards. It's likely to be a competition between several kids for at least one spot. 

Looking at what we have so far I'd say Larkin, Zetterberg, Nyquist, Mantha, AA, Bertuzzi, Abdelkader, Nielsen, and Helm are all above any level Turgeon could plausibly reach. If we sign someone like Vanek or better, they'd go in that list as well. Turgeon just hasn't done enough yet to rise that much in one camp. So far he's a notch below where even Abby, Helm, or Glendening were when they were in GR; also below Sheahan, Andersson, and Emmerton, and no shortage of others who never even made the NHL. He has a lot of work to do. 

Ras and Svech would probably have to perform poorly in addition to Turgeon playing well. I'm doubtful he could be good enough to even reach Glendening's level, but maybe. Frk and Witko would be within reach, and if that was going to be an every day spot in the lineup I'd want the best player. If it were just for a spot in the pressbox I wouldn't care. 

I'm sorry but Witko is Worthless.

Edited by SwedeLundin77

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Neomaxizoomdweebie    3,083

Neomaxizoomdweebie
Posted (edited)

https://mynhltraderumors.com/nhl-rumors-montreal-canadiens-open-to-trade-offers-for-their-first-round-pick-mutual-interest-in-tomas-plekanec/2018/06/18/

“I’ll listen, I’m open,” Bergevin said about possibly trading the No. 3 pick when he met with the media Saturday morning at the Bell Centre to discuss Friday night’s deal that sent Alex Galchenyuk to the Arizona Coyotes in exchange for Max Domi. “I’ve told teams if they want to make me an offer, I’ll look at it. But again, sometimes teams don’t want to move up. As much as a team wants to move back or move up, if there’s no takers or buyers then you just sit where you’re at.”

 
Edited by Neomaxizoomdweebie

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Neomaxizoomdweebie    3,083

Neomaxizoomdweebie
Posted

https://elitesportsny.com/2018/06/18/new-york-rangers-time-to-move-on-from-the-ilya-kovalchuk-dream/

 He has reportedly told the Rangers that they need to prove to him that they can win in the next few years. Here’s the thing, they can’t.

Kovalchuk isn’t coming back to the NHL to just play for the heck of it. He wants to chase the Stanley Cup. The Rangers are nowhere near that, and it’s time to put that dream to rest.

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