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Jonas Mahonas

Zetterberg HOF Worthy?

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1 minute ago, kliq said:

I do 100% agree that the players of that era were bigger "stars"  then the guys now a days.

As far as comparing Andreychuk to Marleau, I agree with you but only because Marleau never led his team to a cup (like Andreychuk did in 2004). Now if Marleau ends his career winning a cup for TO playing a major role, I think they go down at the exact same level.

Andreychuk was a passenger on that team.

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1 minute ago, kickazz said:

If you combined all the players into just a single era and gave them all the same type of training and nutrition and supplements then I bet we still wouldn't know.

That's the real answer. 

My whole thing is that you can only really compare a player to his era, and some people have era's that they hold close to their heart and as a result tend to put on a pedestal and over value. I dont think any one particular era is better then any other particular era.

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The goaltending today is so much better than it was in the 80s and before.  That's the biggest thing I see.  Prime Gretzky is going to put up 100 pts a year in 2017-18.  I have no doubt about it.  But he isnt going to put up 200.  I imagine he'd be very much like Steven Stamkos.

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Just now, Jonas Mahonas said:

The goaltending today is so much better than it was in the 80s and before.  That's the biggest thing I see.  Prime Gretzky is going to put up 100 pts a year in 2017-18.  I have no doubt about it.  But he isnt going to put up 200.  I imagine he'd be very much like Steven Stamkos.

No way.  Gretzky was scoring way more than anyone in his peak.  He'd put up more like 130 points in today's era, while the next highest would barely break 100. 

Not sure why you brought up Stamkos.  

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6 hours ago, Learn2LuvIt said:

I agree expansion has helped grow the NHL from a fan/exposure perspective.  On the actual product and players, in the past 10 years the increase of US players in the NHL has only increased 3.2% though.   

Look at where some of the American players are coming from now. Its not just the 3 M's anymore. It takes a while to see the growth (years to decades) of expansion. The overall percentage in the NHL may only be slightly up, but I would venture to guess (I don't have anything to back it up) that participation from PeeWee and Midget Leagues, up thru High School and Developmental Leagues and into minor pro leagues has seen a boom in participation in the US. It will eventually translate into an increase in US born players in the NHL.

Also, the overall quality and quantity of players from Europe has increased as well. Their developmental programs have closed the gap with the American and Canadian programs. There's more parity now because development is better, scouting is better, and an increased supply of really good players on a global scale.

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1 hour ago, GMRwings1983 said:

No way.  Gretzky was scoring way more than anyone in his peak.  He'd put up more like 130 points in today's era, while the next highest would barely break 100. 

Not sure why you brought up Stamkos.  

Statistically I'd say you are pretty damn close.

In 1986 (I just randomly picked a year) Gretzky had 215 points, while Lemieux who was second in scoring scored 141 points which is about 52% more. Then 3rd, 4th, 5th etc. all were within a fair amount of Lemieux.

Last year McDavid scored 100 points, followed by Crosby and a ton others in the high 80's. So even if we ignore Crosby/McDavid and just compare Gretzky to Kane (3rd in scoring with 89 points and I think all will agree is no Mario) if we add 52%, that gives Gretzky 135 points.

Gretzky was an outlier and truly is the GOAT.

Edited by kliq

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36 minutes ago, kliq said:

Statistically I'd say you are pretty damn close.

In 1986 (I just randomly picked a year) Gretzky had 215 points, while Lemieux who was second in scoring scored 141 points which is about 52% more. Then 3rd, 4th, 5th etc. all were within a fair amount of Lemieux.

Last year McDavid scored 100 points, followed by Crosby and a ton others in the high 80's. So even if we ignore Crosby/McDavid and just compare Gretzky to Kane (3rd in scoring with 89 points and I think all will agree is no Mario) if we add 52%, that gives Gretzky 135 points.

Gretzky was an outlier and truly is the GOAT.

The goaltending was so bad in the 80s.  I just dont see Gretzky scoring he did when you stick him in today's NHL.  Watch his highlight reels.  Maybe 60% of the shots he takes would beat a goalie in 2018.  MAYBE.  Take Ovechkin and put him in the 1984 season on a decent team, and he scores 200 goals.  Ovechkin can sneak one timers into 5" gaps.  Gretzky's gaps were often 5 FEET.  The stand up goaltending with the small pads was a joke.  The goalies were coming outside the crease and couldnt recover.  They were flopping around without a clue.  Roy revolutionized that position with the butterfly.  Then the goalies got bigger equipment.  Then the goalies got bigger.  No way Gretzky puts up as many points.  He'd contend for the league scoring title, but no way he blows everyone away.

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27 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

The goaltending was so bad in the 80s.  I just dont see Gretzky scoring he did when you stick him in today's NHL.  Watch his highlight reels.  Maybe 60% of the shots he takes would beat a goalie in 2018.  MAYBE.  Take Ovechkin and put him in the 1984 season on a decent team, and he scores 200 goals.  Ovechkin can sneak one timers into 5" gaps.  Gretzky's gaps were often 5 FEET.  The stand up goaltending with the small pads was a joke.  The goalies were coming outside the crease and couldnt recover.  They were flopping around without a clue.  Roy revolutionized that position with the butterfly.  Then the goalies got bigger equipment.  Then the goalies got bigger.  No way Gretzky puts up as many points.  He'd contend for the league scoring title, but no way he blows everyone away.

Again, you can only compare a player to the era he is playing in. I am looking at Gretzky in relation to how he compares to his peers in which case he utterly dominated. No player in NHL history has dominated an era by such an extreme as Gretzky. 

The crazy thing about Gretzky is even if you eliminated every goal he ever scored, he still has more assists then Jagr (2nd all time in points) has points. 

There is no doubt that goaltending sucked back then, but like @GMRwings1983 said earlier, with that logic you can say Mantha is better then Howe. You cant play the "take him from today and place him into 1986" card. That was never my argument with @GMRwings1983, my argument was that one era was no "better" then another.

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8 hours ago, kliq said:

Again, you can only compare a player to the era he is playing in. I am looking at Gretzky in relation to how he compares to his peers in which case he utterly dominated. No player in NHL history has dominated an era by such an extreme as Gretzky. 

The crazy thing about Gretzky is even if you eliminated every goal he ever scored, he still has more assists then Jagr (2nd all time in points) has points. 

There is no doubt that goaltending sucked back then, but like @GMRwings1983 said earlier, with that logic you can say Mantha is better then Howe. You cant play the "take him from today and place him into 1986" card. That was never my argument with @GMRwings1983, my argument was that one era was no "better" then another.

I can do what I want.  I admitted that Gretzky would still be dominant in today's NHL.  Je wouldn't be 170 lbs.  He'd be 195-200 and strong like Crosby.  He'd be better than Crosby, but not by 100%.  He'd have seasons with 35-40 goals and 75-85 assists while the other guys are struggling to break 100 pts.

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14 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I can do what I want.  I admitted that Gretzky would still be dominant in today's NHL.  Je wouldn't be 170 lbs.  He'd be 195-200 and strong like Crosby.  He'd be better than Crosby, but not by 100%.  He'd have seasons with 35-40 goals and 75-85 assists while the other guys are struggling to break 100 pts.

lol, looks like I hit a sore spot :lol:

0-3

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Its impossible to predict how one player would perform in a different era.  The entire game is different.  Bobby Orr revolutionized the way defensman play the game and essentially invented the "offensive defensman".  He scored a s*** ton in an era where no coaching staff had even conceptualized defending against a team that rushes their own defenseman toward your goalie.  There was a huge hole in the knowledge of the game that Orr exploited.  That hole doesn't exist today and coaches won't bat an eye when the other team's defensman joins the rush.  Its routinely accounted for.  So you can't extrapolate his numbers from that era and apply it to this one and predict he would score at the same rate.  The same applies for Gretzky and any other superstar from any other era.  The way the game is played is different.  The way players prep for the game is different.  Gretzky dominated his era in a way that nobody else has even come close to.  But that doesn't grant him automatic superstar status in any subsequent era.

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On 2/13/2018 at 12:03 AM, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Also, the overall quality and quantity of players from Europe has increased as well. Their developmental programs have closed the gap with the American and Canadian programs. There's more parity now because development is better, scouting is better, and an increased supply of really good players on a global scale.

I totally agree with this.  Remember the good ol days when the Wings via Hakan Andersson were on the forefront of European/USSR scouting and were hitting Jackpot after Jackpot on players that the rest of the league really knew nothing about.  That quickly changed after we starting pulling the Russian 5, Lids, Dats, Z, Homer, etc.  You had to suspect that wouldn't last that long and NHL teams would surely start having full time staff overseas to scout.  Quite frankly, I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner than it did.

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49 minutes ago, Learn2LuvIt said:

I totally agree with this.  Remember the good ol days when the Wings via Hakan Andersson were on the forefront of European/USSR scouting and were hitting Jackpot after Jackpot on players that the rest of the league really knew nothing about.  That quickly changed after we starting pulling the Russian 5, Lids, Dats, Z, Homer, etc.  You had to suspect that wouldn't last that long and NHL teams would surely start having full time staff overseas to scout.  Quite frankly, I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner than it did.

This is truly the secret to why the Wings became the powerhouse they did. Willingness to explore foreign markets.

Konstantinov, Federov, Lidstrom, Kozlov, Datsyuk, Fischer, and Zetterberg to name the biggest. If there was a fair playing field in Europe at the time we would not have obtained even half those guys. 

I'd say the end to that European drafting advantage was about 2003.

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