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shocky2002

ESPN lists most dominant champions of last 20 years: 2008 Red Wings come in 9th

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http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/22839747/the-20-most-dominant-champions-20-years-sports

 

Interesting list.. the 2013 Blackhawks come in 4th for no real reason, they only won the title because Boston was severely injured..

other than that I've always maintained that 2008>>>2002.. Very few Red Wings fans think this because of the names associated with the 2002 roster, but the 08 Wings would've crushed the 02 team in a hypothetical match up.. the D-core in 2008 was much, much better.. and Datsyuk/Zetterberg in their primes were better than Yzerman and Feds at that point of their careers tbh.. the only advantage for 2002 is in goal

Edited by shocky2002

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Their reasons as to why Chicago was dominant are not the best. Winning in OT is not dominating, it may be impressive, but its not domination. They must be putting a lot of stock into the regular season with this team.

 

Keating's take: The Blackhawks finished the lockout-shortened 2013 season with an .802 points percentage, the highest of any NHL team in the past 20 seasons. An insanely dramatic postseason -- an overtime Game 7 versus Detroit, a double-OT clincher versus the defending champion Kings, an 112-minute opener versus Boston, two more OT games in the Stanley Cup Final -- stamped these Blackhawks as not just the most dominant but also the most exciting of recent hockey champions.

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I'm not going to read the list because it's ESPN and after their " 20 most dominant athletes " debacle of a list the other day I can't be  bothered but to say the 2008 Wings were a better hockey team than the 2002 squad is insane. Our D was not as good in 2002 but who cares, no one could get the puck from us and we had Lidstrom in his prime. The puck possession on that 2002 team was out of this world.  Up front there wasn't a weakness anywhere and we had one of the best checking lines ever assembled.  The PP had two of the best right handed PP snipers ever with Hull and Shanny. It would be stretching to find a weakness on the 2002 team. 

The 2008 team was also obviously a very good team with Z and Pavel in their primes and our top 4 on D was amazing.  I'm not taking anything away from them and if we had won the cup in 2009 also my view might be a bit different but I would take 2002 over 2008 all day. 

 

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The 2002 team would beat the 2008 team imo.  Better goaltending, better version of Lidstrom and Chelios, better coach, and a lot more skill at the forward position.  Maybe those Hall of Fame forwards weren't in their primes, but look at the number of them.  Guys like Hull and Robitaille were still 30 goal scorers.  Three Hall of Famers on the top line.  Larionov was still a capable scorer.  Finally, the grind line was younger and could contribute more offensively.  If that team didn't coast throughout the season, they could have broken some records.

The 2013 Blackhawks shouldn't be on the list.  They barely beat our sorry ass team that year in the playoffs.  The 2000 Devils, 2001 Avs, and 2002 Red Wings would destroy that team.  Many other teams would as well.  ESPN should just stick to talking about how big Lebron James' penis is, because that's all they know how to discuss all day. 

Incidentally, they had a lot of basketball teams on there but didn't mention the 2001 Lakers, who went 15-1 in the postseason.  

Edited by GMRwings1983

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1 hour ago, kickazz said:

I agree 2008 team better than 2002 team. 2008 Datsyuk and Zetterberg would have skated circles around 2002 version of Yzerman, Fedorov and Shanahan. 

Fedorov in 2002 was still really good.  They wouldn't skate circles around him.   Most likely, that line would be matched up against the Grind Line.  Draper would neutralize Datsyuk.  Maltby would put a gloved hand in Zetterberg's mouth after every shift to get him off his game.  

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Hmm a lot of players facing their younger self  if you pitted the 2 teams. Would younger DMac beat up older DMac or would younger Dats be quicker than 08 Dats? Figure Maltby would be chirping no matter what. 

Biggest difference makers though would have been Feds, Shanny, Hull, Luc and of course 2002 had a MAJOR factor IMHO in that they had Stevie

2008 roster https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/DET/2008.html

2002 roster https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/DET/2002.html

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58 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Fedorov in 2002 was still really good.  They wouldn't skate circles around him.   Most likely, that line would be matched up against the Grind Line.  Draper would neutralize Datsyuk.  Maltby would put a gloved hand in Zetterberg's mouth after every shift to get him off his game.  

Draper and Maltby neutralize Dats and Zet? Yeah right. Dats and Zet are miles ahead of those two in their own defensive play style. It’s not like Dats and Z were purely offensive forwards.

No defensive forward really neutralized those two in their primes. Doubt Draper and Maltby could.  

Edited by kickazz

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44 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Draper and Maltby neutralize Dats and Zet? Yeah right. Dats and Zet are miles ahead of those two in their own defensive play style. It’s not like Dats and Z were purely offensive forwards.

No defensive forward really neutralized those two in their primes. Doubt Draper and Maltby could.  

They would put up some numbers but would have to struggle every shift.  A peak Lidstrom would likely play against them on every shift.  Bowman could even juggle lines and put Fedorov against them who was a great two-way forward.  That's just one line too.  I don't see the other lines for the 2008 team having as much success as the depth of the 2002 team.  Franzen may be the only ex-factor here, but 2002 Chelios would make him his *****.  

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1 hour ago, GMRwings1983 said:

They would put up some numbers but would have to struggle every shift.  A peak Lidstrom would likely play against them on every shift.  Bowman could even juggle lines and put Fedorov against them who was a great two-way forward.  That's just one line too.  I don't see the other lines for the 2008 team having as much success as the depth of the 2002 team.  Franzen may be the only ex-factor here, but 2002 Chelios would make him his *****.  

Draper and Maltby from 2008 would neutralize the 02 guys. Lidstrom from 08 would neutralize 02 version of himself.  

Rafalski would be our advantage. So would Franzen. Babcock would instantly split Z and D. Zetterberg's line alone would shutdown the Yzerman/Federov line (they played together in 02). Datsyuk's line (likely with Holmstrom) would be free to do whatever they wanted.

Hull and Robataille were big names but old and slow; nothing Helm's speed and Cleary/ Filpula couldn't handle.

The 08 team was better defensively; offensively they had the better complete forwards that could carry the puck from their own zone to create offense. 

 

Edited by kickazz

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Everyone seems to be forgetting about the one player absent from the 2008 team that could do it all, Igor Larionov.

These thought exercises are tough though, only six years earlier, old slow guys could still be successful like Hull and Larionov, but a lot changed by 2008, even more so now.  

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1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

When your 4th line is Robitaille, Larionov, and Holmstrom, you are the best team ever to skate in the NHL.

Not quite.  That title belongs to the 1976 to 1978 Montreal Canadiens, who put up an absurd record in an era that didn't even have overtimes in the regular seasons.  

5 hours ago, kickazz said:

Draper and Maltby from 2008 would neutralize the 02 guys. Lidstrom from 08 would neutralize 02 version of himself.  

Rafalski would be our advantage. So would Franzen. Babcock would instantly split Z and D. Zetterberg's line alone would shutdown the Yzerman/Federov line (they played together in 02). Datsyuk's line (likely with Holmstrom) would be free to do whatever they wanted.

Hull and Robataille were big names but old and slow; nothing Helm's speed and Cleary/ Filpula couldn't handle.

The 08 team was better defensively; offensively they had the better complete forwards that could carry the puck from their own zone to create offense. 

 

Yeah, sorry but Helm was a 4th liner and Cleary and Filppula were not Hall of Fame players.  Hull and Robitaille were still very effective players in 2002.  Draper and Maltby were largely washed up in 2008, especially Maltby who was lucky to have a roster spot.

The 2008 team was great but don't have a big advantage anywhere over the 2002 team.  You're also overlooking goaltending.  Osgood was great in 2008 but he's no Hasek.  Of course, Hasek was on the 2008 team but we're talking about starting goalies in the playoffs.  The goaltending depth was better in 2008, but a 2002 Hasek is better than 2008 Osgood or the 2008 Hasek version.  He's more likely to win a big game when it counts.

Edited by GMRwings1983

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34 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Not quite.  That title belongs to the 1976 to 1978 Montreal Canadiens, who put up an absurd record in an era that didn't even have overtimes in the regular seasons.  

Yeah, sorry but Helm was a 4th liner and Cleary and Filppula were not Hall of Fame players.  Hull and Robitaille were still very effective players in 2002.  Draper and Maltby were largely washed up in 2008, especially Maltby who was lucky to have a roster spot.

The 2008 team was great but don't have a big advantage anywhere over the 2002 team.  You're also overlooking goaltending.  Osgood was great in 2008 but he's no Hasek.  Of course, Hasek was on the 2008 team but we're talking about starting goalies in the playoffs.  The goaltending depth was better in 2008, but a 2002 Hasek is better than 2008 Osgood or the 2008 Hasek version.  He's more likely to win a big game when it counts.

Hull and Robataille were 3rd line players. Would have been shut down by one of our 3rd or 4th line players easy.

2008 hockey was faster and smarter hockey. You’re underestimating the talent and change that was taking place in hockey.

Watch the 02 team highlights. They were slow. Hockey in general was slow.

Edited by kickazz

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25 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Hull and Robataille were 3rd line players. Would have been shut down by one of our 3rd or 4th line players easy.

2008 hockey was faster and smarter hockey. You’re underestimating the talent and change that was taking place in hockey.

Watch the 02 team highlights. They were slow. Hockey in general was slow.

We're comparing the two teams relative to their era.  Otherwise, the 2018 Red Wings would destroy the 1952 Red Wings.  Of course the game changed after the lockout with the new rules.   

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Hockey fans are enamored by names, tbh.. Chelios in 2002 would be the 5th best defenseman on 2008..

Chicago's best team was the one with Byfuglien.. I think everyone in the hockey world knew they were winning the cup that year from the onset..

Edited by shocky2002

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4 minutes ago, shocky2002 said:

Hockey fans are enamored by names, tbh.. Chelios in 2002 would be the 5th best defenseman on 2008..

Chicago's best team was the one with Byfuglien.. I think everyone in the hockey world knew they were winning the cup that year from the onset..

No.  Chelios was a Norris finalist in 2002.  Kronwall, Stuart, and Rafalski were not nominated for a Norris in 2008, or probably in any season for that matter.    

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6 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

No.  Chelios was a Norris finalist in 2002.  Kronwall, Stuart, and Rafalski were not nominated for a Norris in 2008, or probably in any season for that matter.    

He shouldn't have been, IMO. I trust metrics more than anything else, and they tell me that Brian Rafalski in 08 was better than Chelios at any point during his Red Wings caerer. (Devils Ralfaski was better than Chelios anyways) I consider Kronwall and Stuart both about a wash.

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7 minutes ago, shocky2002 said:

He shouldn't have been, IMO. I trust metrics more than anything else, and they tell me that Brian Rafalski in 08 was better than Chelios at any point during his Red Wings caerer. (Devils Ralfaski was better than Chelios anyways) I consider Kronwall and Stuart both about a wash.

Chelios was a finalist in 2002 from his stellar defensive play.  Rafalski was the exact opposite as he was great offensively but suspect defensively.  I'm guessing your metrics are largely based on offensive numbers.

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9 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Chelios was a finalist in 2002 from his stellar defensive play.  Rafalski was the exact opposite as he was great offensively but suspect defensively.  I'm guessing your metrics are largely based on offensive numbers.

I'll take a longshot and guess its Corsi.

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2002 Hasek VS. 2008 Osgood? Not even in the same realm. Osgood played his ass off in 2008 and i love the guy, but Hasek in 2002 was a top 3 goalie in the league. Osgood was let go to bring him in. 2002 Hasek beats 2008 Osgood in any game that comes down to goaltending. Z and Dats were great players then no doubt, but they faced Ellis, Theodore, Turco, and Fleury in each round. 2002 Hasek would have been much harder to beat than any of those. Put younger Smyth winner Lidstrom and Chelios in front, can't see it happening.

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7 hours ago, GMRwings1983 said:

We're comparing the two teams relative to their era.  Otherwise, the 2018 Red Wings would destroy the 1952 Red Wings.  Of course the game changed after the lockout with the new rules.   

Even so, the 2002 guys were past their primes and slower. Slower than the 98 versions of themselves. 

The 02 team struggled against the Avs. The 08 team blew everyone out and made good teams look like amateur ones at times (including Pitt).

The 02 team was down 0-2 against Vancouver. They got blown out by St Louis 6-1 in game 4 or whatever and were down to the Avs in the series at one point. The 08 never had any of these issues and were dominant throughout each series.

2008 team consisted of a Selke winner, a Norris winner, a playoff leading scorer, Byng winner, and Jennings winners all in one squad. The biggest feat for the 02 squad was Lidstrom’s Norris.

Edited by kickazz

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