ESPN lists most dominant champions of last 20 years: 2008 Red Wings come in 9th

[kliq 3,755]

9 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Most of those Hall of Famers were much past their prime. Most of the best players of the 08 team was young. They would have beaten the 02 guys at their age in 2002. 

The Nashville and Dallas struggles you mentioned are nothing compared to the 02 struggle Avs gave the Wings. The Wings in 2008 were just better than most teams in every way. They literally had puck possession most of the game in every game. 

08 team is underrated around here because we get spoiled by names like Hull, Robataille, Yzerman. Guys who were pretty far past their prime in 02. 

Yep. Sure can. 

Some people get to caught up in the "names" on the 2002 team. Great team for sure, but many were well past their prime.

[kickazz 5,459]

That 2002 team faced Irbe lol. He had a good playoff season that year but he was not a good goalie in general.

I'm amazed at how people don't realize the difference in hockey between 2002 and 2008. 2008 hockey players did not have much space on ice and, they were faster too. Our 08 would LITERALLY skate circles around those guys in 02 with all that space and lack of speed. Just watch how defenseman did a much better job of collapsing in to take lanes and passes away in 08. Part of the reason is because a lot more players played 200 foot game in 2008 compared to the early 2000s. 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2018 by kickazz

[Buppy 1,720]

Fun fact: The 08 team (Avg. age 32.1 yrs) was older than the 02 team (31.9), though the top forwards were younger.

Many of the names in 02 were past their prime, true, but most of the 08 forwards weren't anything special even in their prime. I'd take over-the-hill Yzerman, Hull, and Robitaille over prime (really not quite even in their prime yet) Franzen, Filppula, and Hudler. I'd also take the prime grind line from 02 over the older mess of a 4th line we had in 08. 

Homer, Cleary, Sammy, Helm in 08 maybe a little better than 02 Homer, Larionov, rookie Datsyuk, and Devereaux. Datsyuk and Zetterberg over Fedorov and Shanahan.

Overall forwards are pretty even. If we're thinking Avs-series-Franzen, I'd give the edge to 08. Normal-Franzen then I'd go 02.

08 gets an edge on defense, 02 in goal. 02 in coaching, 08 in system.

A hypothetical 7 game series could very well come down to which team did a better job keeping Lidstrom out against the other top line. 02 team would have home ice, Bowman, and a younger Nick. Winner.

[kickazz 5,459]

9 hours ago, Buppy said:

02 team would have home ice

Which means, 08 team would have home ice.

Edited April 22, 2018 by kickazz

[LeftWinger 4,949]

Fun Fact: With all the hooking and subtle interference clutch and grabbing allowed in 02, NO WAY the 08 team gets as much room as they did.

Fun Fact: Avs Series Franzen does not, ever, NEVER score two hattricks on 02 Patrick Roy. Reason why he got two in 08? Theodore...Oh and again, taking rule changes in to consideration, NO WAY 08 Datyuk and Z outplay or are better than 02 Fedorov and Shanahan.

Fun Fact: If rules never changed between 1997 and 2017, the 1997 Red Wings beat the 2008 Red Wings. Again, if 08 team had to deal with all the clutching and grabbing they aren't as dominate and if 97 Wings had so much free ice without the clutching and grabbing and hooking, OMG!

Bottom line is you really cannot compare 08 to any of the other 3 because of the rule changes.

FWIW, I take all four of our Cup teams over any of the other Cup winners in that 20 years!

[RightWeiner 17]

1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

Fun Fact: With all the hooking and subtle interference clutch and grabbing allowed in 02, NO WAY the 08 team gets as much room as they did.

Fun Fact: Avs Series Franzen does not, ever, NEVER score two hattricks on 02 Patrick Roy. Reason why he got two in 08? Theodore...Oh and again, taking rule changes in to consideration, NO WAY 08 Datyuk and Z outplay or are better than 02 Fedorov and Shanahan.

Fun Fact: If rules never changed between 1997 and 2017, the 1997 Red Wings beat the 2008 Red Wings. Again, if 08 team had to deal with all the clutching and grabbing they aren't as dominate and if 97 Wings had so much free ice without the clutching and grabbing and hooking, OMG!

Bottom line is you really cannot compare 08 to any of the other 3 because of the rule changes.

FWIW, I take all four of our Cup teams over any of the other Cup winners in that 20 years!

I don't think you understand what a "fact" is. 

Those are opinions...

[LeftWinger 4,949]

....ouch. There is no limit to how much you have "gotten" me. Although its not quite as many as the amount of usernames you've had. Literally.

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

23 hours ago, kickazz said:

Most of those Hall of Famers were much past their prime. Most of the best players of the 08 team was young. They would have beaten the 02 guys at their age in 2002. 

The Nashville and Dallas struggles you mentioned are nothing compared to the 02 struggle Avs gave the Wings. The Wings in 2008 were just better than most teams in every way. They literally had puck possession most of the game in every game. 

08 team is underrated around here because we get spoiled by names like Hull, Robataille, Yzerman. Guys who were pretty far past their prime in 02. 

Yep. Sure can. 

No s**t.  That Avs team would have smoked the 2008 Predators and 2008 Stars.  The rosters were not comparable.  

18 hours ago, Buppy said:

Fun fact: The 08 team (Avg. age 32.1 yrs) was older than the 02 team (31.9), though the top forwards were younger.

Many of the names in 02 were past their prime, true, but most of the 08 forwards weren't anything special even in their prime. I'd take over-the-hill Yzerman, Hull, and Robitaille over prime (really not quite even in their prime yet) Franzen, Filppula, and Hudler. I'd also take the prime grind line from 02 over the older mess of a 4th line we had in 08. 

Homer, Cleary, Sammy, Helm in 08 maybe a little better than 02 Homer, Larionov, rookie Datsyuk, and Devereaux. Datsyuk and Zetterberg over Fedorov and Shanahan.

Overall forwards are pretty even. If we're thinking Avs-series-Franzen, I'd give the edge to 08. Normal-Franzen then I'd go 02.

08 gets an edge on defense, 02 in goal. 02 in coaching, 08 in system.

A hypothetical 7 game series could very well come down to which team did a better job keeping Lidstrom out against the other top line. 02 team would have home ice, Bowman, and a younger Nick. Winner.

Yep.  Pretty sure Yzerman, Hull and Robitaille had better numbers in 2002 than Filppula, Samuelsson, Hudler or Franzen had in 2008.  

[kickazz 5,459]

32 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Pretty sure Yzerman, Hull and Robitaille had better numbers in 2002 than Filppula, Samuelsson, Hudler or Franzen had in 2008.  

You may want to check again lol. Samuelsson, Franzen, and Filpulla, Hudler ALL had better numbers than Robataille in the playoffs.

Franzen had 13 goals, 18 points in only 16 games played while Hull had 10 goals 18 points in 23 games played. Hull being one of the best goal scorers in the game of hockey.

Yet another example of why the big names makes people think they must have been amazing. Robataille was not that good in those 02 playoffs. Past his prime. That's the reality of it. Not sure how long till fans realize this. 

Don't get me wrong, I love that 02 team and I think the offensive spread was probably a little better. I just think the way the forwards played in 08, they would have outdone the 02 guys. Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, Filpulla, and others played a 200 foot game that I don't think the 02 team would have been able to counter. If anything it would probably come down to Hasek's performance and Bowman's coaching compared to Babcocks. Problem for Hasek would be that 08 Osgood himself was a beast and his GAA was ridiculously better than Hasek's. So even that is up for debate. 

 

Edited April 23, 2018 by kickazz

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

32 minutes ago, kickazz said:

You may want to check again lol. Samuelsson, Franzen, and Filpulla, Hudler ALL had better numbers than Robataille in the playoffs.

Franzen had 13 goals, 18 points in only 16 games played while Hull had 10 goals 18 points in 23 games played. Hull being one of the best goal scorers in the game of hockey.

Yet another example of why the big names makes people think they must have been amazing. Robataille was not that good in those 02 playoffs. Past his prime. That's the reality of it. Not sure how long till fans realize this. 

Don't get me wrong, I love that 02 team and I think the offensive spread was probably a little better. I just think the way the forwards played in 08, they would have outdone the 02 guys. Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, Filpulla, and others played a 200 foot game that I don't think the 02 team would have been able to counter. If anything it would probably come down to Hasek's performance and Bowman's coaching compared to Babcocks. Problem for Hasek would be that 08 Osgood himself was a beast and his GAA was ridiculously better than Hasek's. So even that is up for debate. 

 

I was talking about the season as a whole.  Not just the playoffs.  Both Robitaille and Hull had 30 goal seasons that year.

I'm well aware of Franzen's postseason.  His goal scoring playoff run was probably better than any Wings player, including a prime Yzerman, Zetterberg, or Fedorov.  Still, we're talking about the season as a whole.  Let's be honest here.  The only roster spot a Samuelsson, Hudler, or Filppula would have in 2002 would be either Datsyuk's or Deveraux's.  Otherwise, they don't regularly start for that roster.  

Your talk of a 200 foot game is irrelevant when comparing eras.  I think the 2018 Wings would play a better 200 foot game than the 1952 Wings.    

[kickazz 5,459]

4 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

I was talking about the season as a whole.  Not just the playoffs.  Both Robitaille and Hull had 30 goal seasons that year.

I'm well aware of Franzen's postseason.  His goal scoring playoff run was probably better than any Wings player, including a prime Yzerman, Zetterberg, or Fedorov.  Still, we're talking about the season as a whole.  Let's be honest here.  The only roster spot a Samuelsson, Hudler, or Filppula would have in 2002 would be either Datsyuk's or Deveraux's.  Otherwise, they don't regularly start for that roster.  

Your talk of a 200 foot game is irrelevant when comparing eras.  I think the 2018 Wings would play a better 200 foot game than the 1952 Wings.    

I'm talking about playoffs and them going head to head for the Cup run. I think the 08 team in a game 7 series against 02 team would win.

If we look at season as a whole that changes things. For one, Yzerman missed like 30 games.... And Osgood performed better in the playoffs than he did in that actual season. 

Edited April 23, 2018 by kickazz

[LeftWinger 4,949]

Lol! Franzen scored 2 hattricks against a garbage Avs  team and a hack goalie....Again, Franzen does not score 6 goals against Patrick Roy in 4 games. I would've loved to see him playing in 02 or earlier style of play.

In a series, you just cannot compare

Edited April 23, 2018 by LeftWinger

[kickazz 5,459]

1 minute ago, LeftWinger said:

Lol! Franzen scored 2 hattricks against a garbage Ahs team and s hack goalie....Again, Franzen does not score 6 goals against Patrick Roy in 4 games. I would've loved to see him playing in 02 or earlier style of play.

And Robataille would look like a camel on ice in the 08 playoff hockey. Same for Hull. So yeah. 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

On 4/21/2018 at 8:13 PM, kliq said:

Some people get to caught up in the "names" on the 2002 team. Great team for sure, but many were well past their prime.

I disagree with this. There were "past their prime" guys in 02 for sure (Yzerman, Hull, Larionov, Robitaille, Olausson, Duchesne) but there were also "past their prime" guys in 08 as well (Lidstrom, Rafalski, Lilja, Holmstrom, Drake). Plus the entire "Grind Line" of McCarty, Maltby, and Draper were in their prime in 02, but well past their primes in 08. The 02 team also had Fedorov and Shanahan in their primes vs. Datsyuk and Zetterberg in 08. Both teams had "past their prime" Chelios and Hasek, obviously both were better in 02. But the biggest advantage for me is that the 02 team had a much younger Lidstrom. The "past their prime argument" doesn't work for me considering there were 8 guys who played for both teams and were 6 years older in 08.

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

12 minutes ago, kickazz said:

And Robataille would look like a camel on ice in the 08 playoff hockey. Same for Hull. So yeah. 

Once again, you're comparing different eras and styles of play.  It doesn't matter how Robitaille would skate in 2008.  I don't want to diminish what Franzen accomplished, but yes he did pad his stats playing against Theodore, who was god awful in that series.  

[LeftWinger 4,949]

3 minutes ago, kickazz said:

And Robataille would look like a camel on ice in the 08 playoff hockey. Same for Hull. So yeah. 

Robitaills and Hull could stand still and score 23 goals on Theodore. Turco, Ellis and Fluery. LOL! Looking at the box scores Franzen had 9 goals against Hack Theodore in 4 games, only 4 goals in the other 12...ya, great playoff scorer! 

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

1 minute ago, LeftWinger said:

Robitaills and Hull could stand still and score 23 goals on Theodore. Turco, Ellis and Fluery. LOL! Looking at the box scores Franzen had 9 goals against Hack Theodore in 4 games, only 4 goals in the other 12...ya, great playoff scorer! 

He was injured in the Dallas series.  He had a great chance of winning the Conn Smythe that year if he posted 15+ goals.  Even though Zettterberg was so clutch on both sides of the ice, those kind of goal scoring numbers would be hard to ignore.  

[LeftWinger 4,949]

Franzen has always padded his stats by scoring 5 goals in 2 games the disappearing for 20. Most overrated player ever. Fedorov at 32 would skate circles around "Playoff Franzen."

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

1 minute ago, LeftWinger said:

Franzen has always padded his stats by scoring 5 goals in 2 games the disappearing for 20. Most overrated player ever. Fedorov at 32 would skate circles around "Playoff Franzen."

Nevermind.  I forgot who I was arguing with about Franzen.  I may as well ask DraperFan (is he still around?) how he feels about Todd Bertuzzi.  

[kliq 3,755]

2 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I disagree with this. There were "past their prime" guys in 02 for sure (Yzerman, Hull, Larionov, Robitaille, Olausson, Duchesne) but there were also "past their prime" guys in 08 as well (Lidstrom, Rafalski, Lilja, Holmstrom, Drake). Plus the entire "Grind Line" of McCarty, Maltby, and Draper were in their prime in 02, but well past their primes in 08. The 02 team also had Fedorov and Shanahan in their primes vs. Datsyuk and Zetterberg in 08. Both teams had "past their prime" Chelios and Hasek, obviously both were better in 02. But the biggest advantage for me is that the 02 team had a much younger Lidstrom. The "past their prime argument" doesn't work for me considering there were 8 guys who played for both teams and were 6 years older in 08.

Sounds like you agree with me even though you say you don't.

In my post I wasn't saying that '02 had more past their prime players then '08, I was just saying that in general people look at the '02 team in a brighter light then they should because of how many hall of famers were on it. My point is simply that a lot of those players were past their primes. That particular post had nothing to do with 2008.

[kickazz 5,459]

2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Franzen has always padded his stats by scoring 5 goals in 2 games the disappearing for 20. Most overrated player ever. Fedorov at 32 would skate circles around "Playoff Franzen."

Say whatever you want but all of of the guys you mentioned played against crappy goalies in the playoffs and never scored that way in their series.

 

Edited April 23, 2018 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

2 hours ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Once again, you're comparing different eras and styles of play.  

My point with that post specifically is that Robataille and Hull were past their primes in 2002 compared to their prime. They were visibly slower on ice. Robataille produced worse than Filpulla, Franzen, Hudler and Samuelsson in the playoffs.. 

A 1990s Hull and Robataille would stomp the 08 Wings. Hands down. But the 02 guys not so much. And we're talking about a specific point in time in which I  think the 08 team was superior. 

 

Edited April 23, 2018 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

4 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Robitaills and Hull could stand still and score 23 goals on Theodore. Turco, Ellis and Fluery. LOL! Looking at the box scores Franzen had 9 goals against Hack Theodore in 4 games, only 4 goals in the other 12...ya, great playoff scorer! 

Wait wait wait, you think the 02 goalies were any better? Aside from Roy? 

Irbe? Really? Wow what a challenge Carolina was for us. Cloutier for Vancouver was a joke. 

Marc Andre Fleury had better stats than Patrick Roy did in 02 playoffs.

Again, another prime example of people assuming that big names must have been good. In fact the 02 playoffs was one of Patrick Roy's worst performances with Colorado. Roy had a great season but when playoffs came out he was showing signs of age and his playoff numbers were worse than the years before. There's a reason why Roy played only one more season and quit. 

Edited April 23, 2018 by kickazz

[Buppy 1,720]

2 hours ago, kickazz said:

...Yet another example of why the big names makes people think they must have been amazing. Robataille was not that good in those 02 playoffs. Past his prime. That's the reality of it. Not sure how long till fans realize this. ...

Considering I said in my post that they were past their primes, and was comparing them to players who were decidedly not amazing, what I'm not sure of is who you think doesn't "realize this". 

2 hours ago, kickazz said:

...Don't get me wrong, I love that 02 team and I think the offensive spread was probably a little better. I just think the way the forwards played in 08, they would have outdone the 02 guys. Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, Filpulla, and others played a 200 foot game that I don't think the 02 team would have been able to counter. If anything it would probably come down to Hasek's performance and Bowman's coaching compared to Babcocks. Problem for Hasek would be that 08 Osgood himself was a beast and his GAA was ridiculously better than Hasek's. So even that is up for debate. ...

I'm talking about playoffs and them going head to head for the Cup run. I think the 08 team in a game 7 series against 02 team would win.

If we look at season as a whole that changes things. For one, Yzerman missed like 30 games.... And Osgood performed better in the playoffs than he did in that actual season. ...

My point with that post specifically is that Robataille and Hull were past their primes in 2002 compared to their prime. They were visibly slower on ice. Robataille produced worse than Filpulla, Franzen, Hudler and Samuelsson in the playoffs.. 

A 1990s Hull and Robataille would stomp the 08 Wings. Hands down. But the 02 guys not so much. And we're talking about a specific point in time in which I  think the 08 team was superior. 

Yeah, you're cherry picking by focusing only on the playoffs (funny how that doesn't apply when you bring up Irbe) and only on Robitaille. The trio of Yzerman, Hull, and Robitaille in the regular season played 16 fewer games, scored 14 more goals, and 45 more points than the trio of Franzen, Filppula, and Hudler. In the playoffs, they played 9 more games, 3 fewer goals, but 7 more points. So even in the playoffs they, as a group, were superior point producers. It's not just a matter of "names", no matter how much you repeat it. Those guys were still damn good players.

I'd say you're also overstating the speed of the 08 team. Aside from Helm, Flip, Cleary, and a few flashes of Draper, they weren't exactly high-end skaters. I'd say Fedorov and 02 Draper easily beat any of them. Overall the 08 team might have been faster, but not by any huge amount. Both teams were focused mainly around puck control.

Also, both teams were very much "200 ft" teams. Fedorov, Yzerman, and Draper all Selke calibre. Maltby was actually good then. Shanny, Larionov, McCarty, Datsyuk, and even Devereaux could hold their own. Hull was even a regular on the PK for us. Every bit as much of a two-way group of forwards as 08. Maybe even more so.

I think it's you who needs to set aside the preconceptions. The 08 team wasn't a group of fast young dynamos, nor the 02 team a bunch of slow, over the hill one-dimensional scorers.

[marcaractac 3,962]

7 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Robitaills and Hull could stand still and score 23 goals on Theodore. Turco, Ellis and Fluery. LOL! Looking at the box scores Franzen had 9 goals against Hack Theodore in 4 games, only 4 goals in the other 12...ya, great playoff scorer! 

Your Franzen hate is hitting new levels of pathetic