ESPN lists most dominant champions of last 20 years: 2008 Red Wings come in 9th

[LeftWinger 4,951]

2 hours ago, marcaractac said:

Your Franzen hate is hitting new levels of pathetic

listen, we all know my hate for Franzen, you are right, but when a sentence starts with Franzen and ends with "better than Fedorov or Shanahan" then there is not enough absurdness in the world to compare to it. In no year, decade or century is Franzen anywhere near the talent of either of them. I am not talking just because of the big names either. Franzen scored 13 goals, yes, but 9 of them were against a sieve named Jose Theodore. That is like scoring 9 against Howard or Mrazek and calling someone a star... My point, though blindly exaggerated I admit, was that if you put Hull or Shanny or Fedorov in the same era (no clutch and grab) and same hack goalie, they'd also rack up their goal totals.  I do appreciate everything he did to help us win the Cup that season though.

You guys know me by now, sometimes my mouth (or in this case fingers) talk (type) before my brain thinks and I fly off the handle. Its wrong to do most times, But hey, at least it's entertainment value for you guys! And I haven't been very entertaining to people too much recently in my life, so I am glad I can at least shed some laughs here!  

But you're right, my lack of affection for him fueled most of that post!

[LeftWinger 4,951]

6 hours ago, kickazz said:

Wait wait wait, you think the 02 goalies were any better? Aside from Roy? 

Irbe? Really? Wow what a challenge Carolina was for us. Cloutier for Vancouver was a joke. 

Marc Andre Fleury had better stats than Patrick Roy did in 02 playoffs.

Again, another prime example of people assuming that big names must have been good. In fact the 02 playoffs was one of Patrick Roy's worst performances with Colorado. Roy had a great season but when playoffs came out he was showing signs of age and his playoff numbers were worse than the years before. There's a reason why Roy played only one more season and quit. 

...and that is why Franzen had only 1 goal against Fluery.  My point was he padded his goal totals against a hack of a goalie.

But yes, for as much as I dislike him, he shined when he got an opportunity. I cheered with all the other fans.

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

7 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

listen, we all know my hate for Franzen, you are right, but when a sentence starts with Franzen and ends with "better than Fedorov or Shanahan" then there is not enough absurdness in the world to compare to it. In no year, decade or century is Franzen anywhere near the talent of either of them. I am not talking just because of the big names either. Franzen scored 13 goals, yes, but 9 of them were against a sieve named Jose Theodore. That is like scoring 9 against Howard or Mrazek and calling someone a star... My point, though blindly exaggerated I admit, was that if you put Hull or Shanny or Fedorov in the same era (no clutch and grab) and same hack goalie, they'd also rack up their goal totals.  I do appreciate everything he did to help us win the Cup that season though.

You guys know me by now, sometimes my mouth (or in this case fingers) talk (type) before my brain thinks and I fly off the handle. Its wrong to do most times, But hey, at least it's entertainment value for you guys! And I haven't been very entertaining to people too much recently in my life, so I am glad I can at least shed some laughs here!  

But you're right, my lack of affection for him fueled most of that post!

Franzen was a better playoff performer than both of them

[LeftWinger 4,951]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Franzen was a better playoff performer than both of them

Go back to defending Howard...

[marcaractac 3,962]

6 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Go back to defending Howard...

Howard wouldn't have let in as many Franzen goals as Theodore, but would still let in a few because Franzen is realgud. 

[kickazz 5,459]

17 hours ago, Buppy said:

Considering I said in my post that they were past their primes, and was comparing them to players who were decidedly not amazing, what I'm not sure of is who you think doesn't "realize this". 

GMR among others who assumed Robataille and crew outproduced some of the named 08 players. When in reality they did not. 

[kickazz 5,459]

17 hours ago, Buppy said:

Considering I said in my post that they were past their primes, and was comparing them to players who were decidedly not amazing, what I'm not sure of is who you think doesn't "realize this". 

Yeah, you're cherry picking by focusing only on the playoffs (funny how that doesn't apply when you bring up Irbe) and only on Robitaille. The trio of Yzerman, Hull, and Robitaille in the regular season played 16 fewer games, scored 14 more goals, and 45 more points than the trio of Franzen, Filppula, and Hudler. In the playoffs, they played 9 more games, 3 fewer goals, but 7 more points. So even in the playoffs they, as a group, were superior point producers. It's not just a matter of "names", no matter how much you repeat it. Those guys were still damn good players.

I'd say you're also overstating the speed of the 08 team. Aside from Helm, Flip, Cleary, and a few flashes of Draper, they weren't exactly high-end skaters. I'd say Fedorov and 02 Draper easily beat any of them. Overall the 08 team might have been faster, but not by any huge amount. Both teams were focused mainly around puck control.

Also, both teams were very much "200 ft" teams. Fedorov, Yzerman, and Draper all Selke calibre. Maltby was actually good then. Shanny, Larionov, McCarty, Datsyuk, and even Devereaux could hold their own. Hull was even a regular on the PK for us. Every bit as much of a two-way group of forwards as 08. Maybe even more so.

I think it's you who needs to set aside the preconceptions. The 08 team wasn't a group of fast young dynamos, nor the 02 team a bunch of slow, over the hill one-dimensional scorers.

Looking at the playoffs stats because that's the competition that led these teams to the Stanley cup...? You know, when it matters most to get a championship? When players tend to try and elevate their games? 

For the bold. Yeah no. May want to fact check yourself. 02 team only fedorov had Selke votes and wasn't even a finalist. 08 team had 2 Selke finalists in top 3 and one eventual winner. Z won Conn Smyth for defensive play mostly against the Penguins. I think Dan Cleary also got some votes for the Selke in 08 too. 

Edited April 24, 2018 by kickazz

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

8 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Go back to defending Howard...

Go back to jerkin' to 17 y/o owen tippett

[Buppy 1,720]

4 hours ago, kickazz said:

GMR among others who assumed Robataille and crew outproduced some of the named 08 players. When in reality they did not. 

Pray tell how you conclude that 30g, 50p is not outproducing the guys he listed? Also how did a discussion of three players turn into a discussion of one?

Yeah, cherry-picking cherry-picker. 

I already showed you that the 02 group outscored the 08 group, by a wide margin in the regular season, and even in the playoffs. Learn what reality means, then stop hiding from it.

4 hours ago, kickazz said:

Looking at the playoffs stats because that's the competition that led these teams to the Stanley cup...? You know, when it matters most to get a championship? When players tend to try and elevate their games? 

For the bold. Yeah no. May want to fact check yourself. 02 team only fedorov had Selke votes and wasn't even a finalist. 08 team had 2 Selke finalists in top 3 and one eventual winner. Z won Conn Smyth for defensive play mostly against the Penguins. I think Dan Cleary also got some votes for the Selke in 08 too. 

Looking at playoffs because it was a cherry to pick. That's why you didn't do that when you wanted to use Irbe against the 02 team. 

I said Selke calibre, not Selke finalists. Learn what words mean. All those players won a Selke and all were still very good defensively in 02 despite any lack of recognition (also hockey-reference only shows the top-10 from 02, so Yzerman and Draper may in fact have received some votes). Are you seriously trying to suggest that "fact" is determined by a poll of professional hockey writers? Learn what facts are. Or that the 02 team did not have an excellent group of 2-way/defensive forwards?  

You're trying too hard to be argumentative, which I wear't dislike. You need to gain a working day of chill out.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

6 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Go back to jerkin' to 17 y/o owen tippett

Wow! This is inappropriate, You may want to visit the forum rules index again. Number9 showing up....plus considering I have not mentioned Tippett in about 2-3 months, its also a very useless post. I do believe your Howard affection has far surpassed my opinion of Tippett or Franzen. And now you're getting personal and off the handle.  Totally inappropriate and unwarranted. But what is it you say? And now, here we are...

Edited April 24, 2018 by LeftWinger

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Wow! This is inappropriate, You may want to visit the forum rules index again. Number9 showing up....plus considering I have not mentioned Tippett in about 2-3 months, its also a very useless post. I do believe your Howard affection has far surpassed my opinion of Tippett or Franzen. And now you're getting personal and off the handle.  Totally inappropriate and unwarranted. But what is it you say? And now, here we are...

Oops sorry, didn't mean to be inappropriate.

Go back to strokin to owen tippett

Better?

[marcaractac 3,962]

13 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Oops sorry, didn't mean to be inappropriate.

Go back to strokin to owen tippett

Better?

Strokin'

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

20 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Strokin'

lmao

You're on a role

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

21 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Franzen was a better playoff performer than both of them

Not really.  He was a great playoff performer over a three year period or so, but those guys were more consistent in the postseason for a longer period of time.  Fedorov for sure was a better playoff performer.  Shanahan was clutch for a while but faded towards the end of his Detroit stay.  Three years is simply not enough time to be considered a better playoff performer than Hall of Fame players.  

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

On 4/22/2018 at 11:33 PM, kliq said:

Sounds like you agree with me even though you say you don't.

In my post I wasn't saying that '02 had more past their prime players then '08, I was just saying that in general people look at the '02 team in a brighter light then they should because of how many hall of famers were on it. My point is simply that a lot of those players were past their primes. That particular post had nothing to do with 2008.

All true, but I don't think that anyone in here who believes the 02 team is better is "blinded" by the names (casual fans maybe). It seems like most of us here are more knowledgeable than the average fan, and some of us still think 02 is better. As i said, some guys in 02 were "past their prime", but many of the guys on the 08 roster were just "past their prime" versions of the 02 team.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

3 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Oops sorry, didn't mean to be inappropriate.

Go back to strokin to owen tippett

Better?

....and just a couple of minutes ago in the other thread you claimed I made this up, now you come here and make it worse. Or do you forget what you post from thread to thread? Personal attacks are not allowed and can result in being banned. But you've been there before so obviously you don't care about rules.

Edited April 24, 2018 by LeftWinger

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

25 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

....and just a couple of minutes ago in the other thread you claimed I made this up, now you come here and make it worse. Or do you forget what you post from thread to thread? Personal attacks are not allowed and can result in being banned. But you've been there before so obviously you don't care about rules.

When did I claim you made something up? I believe I asked "What did I say in another thread now?". Reading comprehension. Try it.

Sorry, I didn't realize I was being too lude for you. I just figured someone who makes homophobic remarks around the board would be cool with it. I guess I figured wrong!

 

[kliq 3,755]

6 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

All true, but I don't think that anyone in here who believes the 02 team is better is "blinded" by the names (casual fans maybe). It seems like most of us here are more knowledgeable than the average fan, and some of us still think 02 is better. As i said, some guys in 02 were "past their prime", but many of the guys on the 08 roster were just "past their prime" versions of the 02 team.

I dont think the majority are "blinded" but I think some are. Generally speaking, when the 2002 team is brought up, people talk about it like its one of the greatest teams of all time. On paper it was, in reality, it was a very good team. I dont think it was as good as what some people hype it up to be. With that being said, it was a very very good team.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

Honestly, if we're talking "best" of the Red Wings, regular season was 1995-96, best Cup winner was 1997. I'd love to see the prime Feds, Kozi, Lidstrom, Shanny, much younger Yzerman play in the same league rules as 2008. Man they'd destroy teams being able to free wheel all over without having an extra hand on their stick or getting hooked. Hell if the 96 team had those rules they may not have lost a game, and they only lost 13!

You just cannot compare different eras. It just like putting Gretzky back in the 40's and 50's, heck even the 60's when Gordie was tearing it up, he would've had a very hard time becoming The Great One in that era.

[kliq 3,755]

8 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Honestly, if we're talking "best" of the Red Wings, regular season was 1995-96, best Cup winner was 1997. I'd love to see the prime Feds, Kozi, Lidstrom, Shanny, much younger Yzerman play in the same league rules as 2008. Man they'd destroy teams being able to free wheel all over without having an extra hand on their stick or getting hooked. Hell if the 96 team had those rules they may not have lost a game, and they only lost 13!

You just cannot compare different eras. It just like putting Gretzky back in the 40's and 50's, heck even the 60's when Gordie was tearing it up, he would've had a very hard time becoming The Great One in that era.

Agreed. The way I look at it, you can only compare within an era. The reason why I believe Gretzky is the greatest of all time, is because he dominated all other players within in his era not named Mario.

Howe, Crosby, Richard etc. never did dominated their own era's like Gretzky did. That's why I find it baffling when people attempt to make claims that one era was "better" then another" The NHL is constantly evolving, players are not getting any worse.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

3 minutes ago, kliq said:

Agreed. The way I look at it, you can only compare within an era. The reason why I believe Gretzky is the greatest of all time, is because he dominated all other players within in his era not named Mario.

Howe, Crosby, Richard etc. never did dominated their own era's like Gretzky did. That's why I find it baffling when people attempt to make claims that one era was "better" then another" The NHL is constantly evolving, players are not getting any worse.

imagine Fedorov in Gretzky's prime (80's) with all the protection on that Oilers team.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

8 minutes ago, kliq said:

Agreed. The way I look at it, you can only compare within an era. The reason why I believe Gretzky is the greatest of all time, is because he dominated all other players within in his era not named Mario.

Howe, Crosby, Richard etc. never did dominated their own era's like Gretzky did. That's why I find it baffling when people attempt to make claims that one era was "better" then another" The NHL is constantly evolving, players are not getting any worse.

Put Howe in Gretzky's 80s or even today. What do think he accomplishes out of curiosity?

[kliq 3,755]

Just now, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Put Howe in Gretzky's 80s or even today. What do think he accomplishes out of curiosity?

Do you mean if you literally went back in time and took Howe, and brought him to current day? Like with his 1950's/60's speed, agility etc.?

 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

16 minutes ago, kliq said:

Do you mean if you literally went back in time and took Howe, and brought him to current day? Like with his 1950's/60's speed, agility etc.?

 

yes. literally. Would Lucic be a fair comparison?

[kliq 3,755]

43 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

yes. literally. Would Lucic be a fair comparison?

I dont like doing this because it doesnt seem fair, but I think his lack of speed would kill him. Plus, Howe was a very gritty player, and he would likely feel neutered playing in today's NHL. I think he would really struggle.