Official 2018 Off Season *Rebuild* Thread

[LeftWinger 4,951]

It's very good that we'll be signing him! Two years probably. Better than letting him go UFA and play good and help a team like Pit or Chicago! Ugh! 

We can sign JT, then trade Svech Sr and AA to Carolina to play with his brother for a D man!

Litterally nobody can screw this off season up!

[Dabura 12,207]

On 5/4/2018 at 11:47 PM, krsmith17 said:

I've always been a big Helm supporter. I think he's a very good bottom 6 player. Abdelkader and Glendening are meh. In saying that, I'd much rather "throw the towel in on them", than potentially stunt the growth of a talented young kid by playing them 10 minutes a night with Glendening. If it's not Abdelkader and Helm on the 4th line with Glendening, who will it be? Svechnikov and Rasmussen? I think that's what we will end up seeing. But it's definitely not what I'd like to see...

Realistically what more could we expect to get in a trade for one of them by playing them for a year on the 3rd line with Nielsen, rather than the 4th line with Glendening? A 3rd round pick instead of a 4th? A 4th instead of a 5th? I don't think it's going to make a whole lot of a difference in their overall trade value. 

How would you structure the lines?

Yeah, it would be a very good 4th line. To be honest, I don't care too much about individual player cap hits when it comes to making up lines though. As long as the team is under the cap, that's all that should matter to a coach. That's what young players on ELC's are for. The coach shouldn't care if his 3rd line produces twice as much, making half as much money as his 4th line. That's on the GM.

There are a number of reasons why I'm not gung-ho about a fourth line of Helm, Abby, Glendening. Even if we're not paying any mind to cap hits or trade value, I'd still have other concerns.

I think Helm and Abby are at their best when they're slotted as complementary wingers on scoring lines. They don't really produce their own offense and they're not actually all that great defensively, so I feel like putting them together on a dedicated checking line is just kind of a waste -- for them and the team and the organization.

The Abby-Nielsen-Helm line was helpful in that it freed up the top two lines a bit, I guess -- but overall I'd say the line was a drain on the team's offense and scoring. Swap out Nielsen for Glendening and you're probably just getting an inferior version of that line.

"But they'd be the fourth line, so they'd only be getting ten minutes," you might say.

To which I say: doubtful. Highly doubtful.

I dunno that Rasmussen-Nielsen-Svechnikov would only get ten minutes a night, but I wouldn't expect them to get way more minutes than Abby-Glendening-Helm. (And Rasmussen and Svechnikov are both rookies, so I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that.) So, even if Rasmussen and Svechnikov are playing on the third line and Helm and Abby are playing on the fourth line, Helm and Abby are probably still taking a healthy bite out of those kids' playing time.

And if the bottom six is Rasmussen-Nielsen-Svechnikov / Abby-Glendening-Helm, that means Athanasiou is on one of the top two lines (assuming he's still around), which, frankly, I'm not down with. Based on what he showed this season, I'd fully expect him to be a drag on Larkin and Mantha or Zetterberg and Nyquist.

So...I'd be ok with one of Helm and Abby on the fourth line with Glendening. But both of them? I'm not sure that it would be this really formidable, super-overqualified fourth line. To me, what makes Helm and Abby valuable is their ability to work with much more skilled players. If you take away those skilled players, you take away their main strength, and you're left with what I'd expect to be a thoroughly mediocre fourth line that can throw its weight around on the forecheck, yes, but spends most of its time chasing the puck on the defensive side of the ice. I'd expect it to hurt the team more than it would help the team, especially if some of the kids we're trusting to hold their own in scoring line roles are overwhelmed. Putting kids in roles that are too demanding can stunt their development just as much as severely limiting their ice time and responsibilities can.

Don't get me wrong -- I definitely get where you're coming from and I don't fully disagree. I guess what it comes down to is that, IMO, Larkin and Mantha are the only young forwards who've shown that they absolutely need to be playing big minutes straight out of the gate next season. Frk, Bertuzzi, Svechnikov, Rasmussen, Athanasiou? Not so much. Maybe Bertuzzi, but his success might've just been The Zetterberg Effect.

Haven't thought too hard about what I'd ideally like to see on opening night. Maybe something like this:

Abdelkader  Larkin  Mantha
Bertuzzi  Zetterberg  Nyquist
Rasmussen  Nielsen  Helm
Svechnikov  Athanasiou  Glendening

Even with everything I've said, I wouldn't complain if they went with your combinations. It's looking like we're in for another season of wheel-spinning, regardless of how the lines and pairings are arranged, so I'm not too invested in 2018-19 roster management at the moment. My hope is that next summer will usher in a new-look forward group with new faces, new energy, new possibilities.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Dabura

[13dangledangle 958]

On ‎2018‎-‎05‎-‎06 at 11:16 AM, Jonas Mahonas said:

We need more left handed guys.  This is good news.

David Pope officially signed a 2 year entry level deal this morning, I know nothing about him but the comments on twitter all seem to want Kenny's head for signing him

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

4 minutes ago, 13dangledangle said:

David Pope officially signed a 2 year entry level deal this morning, I know nothing about him but the comments on twitter all seem to want Kenny's head for signing him

Yeah because signing young gifted players during a rebuild is so dumb.

[13dangledangle 958]

2 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Yeah because signing young gifted players during a rebuild is so dumb.

Yeah, what idiots 

 

....seriously though I know nothing about Pope other then what Ive read on here, but I cant possibly see how its a bad move.  Our D needs help this is definitely an egg in our basket

[Buppy 1,720]

24 minutes ago, 13dangledangle said:

Yeah, what idiots 

....seriously though I know nothing about Pope other then what Ive read on here, but I cant possibly see how its a bad move.  Our D needs help this is definitely an egg in our basket

Pope is a winger. 

Most likely never going to amount to anything, but supposedly has a "very good shot" and decent size. Not a very good skater it seems.

Still, nothing to complain about. I would assume anyone complaining is thinking he's a free agent being signed for the Wings rather than just a normal draft pick signing his ELC. 

[13dangledangle 958]

8 minutes ago, Buppy said:

Pope is a winger. 

Most likely never going to amount to anything, but supposedly has a "very good shot" and decent size. Not a very good skater it seems.

Still, nothing to complain about. I would assume anyone complaining is thinking he's a free agent being signed for the Wings rather than just a normal draft pick signing his ELC. 

well there you go.  Pardon my ignorance, this whole time I thought he was a Dman.  Wishful thinking perhaps, either way I obviously hope (pun) he works out 

[Dabura 12,207]

5 minutes ago, Buppy said:

Most likely never going to amount to anything, but supposedly has a "very good shot" and decent size. Not a very good skater it seems.

The right-shooting forward curse continues.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Happy we signed him. Hopefully he can make the Wings out of camp. If not, he'll provide added depth in Grand Rapids, for a team that is / will be lacking offensive weapons.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

5 hours ago, 13dangledangle said:

David Pope officially signed a 2 year entry level deal this morning, I know nothing about him but the comments on twitter all seem to want Kenny's head for signing him

Because Twitter is stupid and allows worse people to tweet.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

Because Twitter is stupid and allows worse people to tweet.

Yeah i dont see what there is to be mad about. If hes a good bottom 6er for us, great. If he sucks, oh well we tried. There's not much to lose.

Good for Pope. Hope he gives his all and suceeds.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

If Jets get eliminated, Holland will trade AA, Helm, Vegas 1st and our 2nd to them for Trouba.

[Dabura 12,207]

13 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

If Jets get eliminated, Holland will trade AA, Helm, Vegas 1st and our 2nd to them for Trouba.

THIS AIN'T THE FANTASY THREAD, NERD!

[krsmith17 7,191]

49 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

If Jets get eliminated, Holland will trade AA, Helm, Vegas 1st and our 2nd to them for Trouba.

I'd love this trade. Unfortunately, I highly doubt Cheveldayoff would do it...

[LeftWinger 4,951]

I guess it all depends on whether or not Trouba is going to give them issues come July 1 again. But ya, surely would be a fantasy come true!

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I'd love this trade. Unfortunately, I highly doubt Cheveldayoff would do it...

Chevel-day-off? A Holland-day-off is more likely.

[Dabura 12,207]

So I'm kind of warming to the idea of overpaying for John Carlson.

We're far away from being a serious playoff team again. And yet, maybe we're not so far away...

• Our core before Carlson: Larkin, Mantha, ???
• Our core after Carlson: Larkin, Mantha, Carlson

There is an enormous difference between the two.

• D situation before Carlson: "I sure hope one of Hronek, Cholowski, Hughes/Boqvist/Bouchard/Dobson becomes a 1D"
• D situation after Carlson: "With Carlson, Hronek, Cholowski, and Hughes/Boqvist/Bouchard/Dobson, we have the makings of a dynamite top four"

There is an enormous difference between the two.

• Offense before Carlson: "Goals, like cookies, are a sometimes snack"
• Offense after Carlson: [stuffing face with thin mints]

I want all the thin mints.

[krsmith17 7,191]

7 hours ago, Dabura said:

So I'm kind of warming to the idea of overpaying for John Carlson.

I'm kind of the opposite. I've wanted Carlson on this team for a looong time. I've always been a big fan of his, and think he's a very underrated defenseman. In saying that, he's coming off a career year, and that monster play has translated into the playoffs. He's going to get Paid this offseason. And while I'd be comfortable paying him what he's worth, I don't know if I'm comfortable in getting into a bidding war and overpaying him, which would be the case.

Carlson would make this team (defense) infinitely better, so I'd obviously reach out and throw out an offer. I wouldn't go much above $7M, 5-6 year term, and I think he's going to get $8M+ at max term. Of course, depending on how he / the Caps do for the remainder of the playoffs, I think there's a strong chance he'll re-up in Washington anyway.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

On 5/5/2018 at 9:34 PM, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Will he be lined up with this guy?

I always thought Satan should have signed with the Devils and worn #6 just for kicks.  With the numbers on his shoulders and back, it'd be 3 6's on his jersey

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I'm kind of the opposite. I've wanted Carlson on this team for a looong time. I've always been a big fan of his, and think he's a very underrated defenseman. In saying that, he's coming off a career year, and that monster play has translated into the playoffs. He's going to get Paid this offseason. And while I'd be comfortable paying him what he's worth, I don't know if I'm comfortable in getting into a bidding war and overpaying him, which would be the case.

Carlson would make this team (defense) infinitely better, so I'd obviously reach out and throw out an offer. I wouldn't go much above $7M, 5-6 year term, and I think he's going to get $8M+ at max term. Of course, depending on how he / the Caps do for the remainder of the playoffs, I think there's a strong chance he'll re-up in Washington anyway.

Yeah, I'm with you. I like Carlson, but probably not at what it's going to cost to get him.  If the team was on the upswing instead of still bottoming out, it would probably be different, but at this point he's going to spend his best remaining years on a rebuilding team and by the time they're good again he's likely to be on the downswing.

[chaps80 1,591]

On 5/6/2018 at 12:18 PM, LeftWinger said:

It's very good that we'll be signing him! Two years probably. Better than letting him go UFA and play good and help a team like Pit or Chicago! Ugh! 

We can sign JT, then trade Svech Sr and AA to Carolina to play with his brother for a D man!

Litterally nobody can screw this off season up!

And trade Nyquist for Grubauer straight up. 

I know goalies can be a draft crapshoot, but I was looking at other goalies on the board when the Wings chose some of theirs, and s***. When they took McCollum, there was Holtby, Allen, and Markstrom available. With Paterson, there was Murray, Andersen, and Hellebuyck. With Larsson, there was Reimer and Johnson. Neither of those two are a big deal but they've stuck around the NHL. Only McCollum is still in the system out of the three, but he's a career AHLer who was let go and brought back. Besides Howard and Mrazek, hasn't been much draft success in goaltending for a long time, although a couple in the pipeline are promising. But they won't be ready for years.

Edited May 10, 2018 by chaps80

[Dabura 12,207]

12 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I'm kind of the opposite. I've wanted Carlson on this team for a looong time. I've always been a big fan of his, and think he's a very underrated defenseman. In saying that, he's coming off a career year, and that monster play has translated into the playoffs. He's going to get Paid this offseason. And while I'd be comfortable paying him what he's worth, I don't know if I'm comfortable in getting into a bidding war and overpaying him, which would be the case.

Carlson would make this team (defense) infinitely better, so I'd obviously reach out and throw out an offer. I wouldn't go much above $7M, 5-6 year term, and I think he's going to get $8M+ at max term. Of course, depending on how he / the Caps do for the remainder of the playoffs, I think there's a strong chance he'll re-up in Washington anyway.

On the one hand, I'm optimistic about our "quick rebuild." On the other hand, I wouldn't bet money on the Wings producing their very own Carlson-caliber defensemen within the next 2-4(+) years. Even if Hughes/Boqvist/Bouchard/Dobson becomes a stud 1D, it probably won't happen until he's in his third or fourth NHL season. I love what Hronek's shown since being drafted and Cholowski's also very promising, but I'm not counting on either of them becoming that 1D that we so desperately need.

So my concern is that we could very easily continue to strike out on our quest to find an elite NHL defenseman and that this could drag out our rebuild. Even with the draft picks that Holland has stockpiled, I don't know that I trust the Wings to find That Defenseman in one of the next two or three drafts. And even if I did fully trust the Wings on that front, the choice would still be A) Get Carlson and finally have some damn closure, or B) hope and pray that we get this s*** sorted out soon. So, from the Wings' perspective, Carlson might actually be worth something like $7.5M x 8. Because we need a Carlson that badly (arguably).

I'm not too concerned about our forward group, because we have Larkin and Mantha and Rasmussen and the Wings have been pretty good about finding good NHLers in later rounds. But the post-Lidstrom years have sort of conditioned me to always expect the worst about our defense situation. I worry that free agency is the only way we're getting an elite NHL defenseman within the next several years.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Dabura

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, chaps80 said:

And trade Nyquist for Grubauer straight up. 

I know goalies can be a draft crapshoot, but I was looking at other goalies on the board when the Wings chose some of theirs, and s***. When they took McCollum, there was Holtby, Allen, and Markstrom available. With Paterson, there was Murray, Andersen, and Hellebuyck. With Larsson, there was Reimer and Johnson. Neither of those two are a big deal but they've stuck around the NHL. Only McCollum is still in the system out of the three, but he's a career AHLer who was let go and brought back. Besides Howard and Mrazek, hasn't been much draft success in goaltending for a long time, although a couple in the pipeline are promising. But they won't be ready for years.

The power of hindsight... You can say the same for literally any draft year, any team, any position. I think between Larsson, Petruzzelli, and Fulcher, we should have at least one quality goaltender coming in the next 2-3 years.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

2 hours ago, chaps80 said:

And trade Nyquist for Grubauer straight up. 

I know goalies can be a draft crapshoot, but I was looking at other goalies on the board when the Wings chose some of theirs, and s***. When they took McCollum, there was Holtby, Allen, and Markstrom available. With Paterson, there was Murray, Andersen, and Hellebuyck. With Larsson, there was Reimer and Johnson. Neither of those two are a big deal but they've stuck around the NHL. Only McCollum is still in the system out of the three, but he's a career AHLer who was let go and brought back. Besides Howard and Mrazek, hasn't been much draft success in goaltending for a long time, although a couple in the pipeline are promising. But they won't be ready for years.

https://www.tsn.ca/the-significant-risk-of-drafting-a-goalie-early-1.51212

[krsmith17 7,191]

30 minutes ago, Dabura said:

On the one hand, I'm optimistic about our "quick rebuild." On the other hand, I wouldn't bet money on the Wings producing their very own Carlson-caliber defensemen within the next 2-4(+) years. Even if Hughes/Boqvist/Bouchard/Dobson becomes a stud 1D, it probably won't happen until he's in his third or fourth NHL season. I love what Hronek's shown since being drafted and Cholowski's also very promising, but I'm not counting on either of them becoming that 1D that we so desperately need.

So my concern is that we could very easily continue to strike out on our quest to find an elite NHL defenseman and that this could drag out our rebuild. Even with the draft picks that Holland has stockpiled, I don't know that I trust the Wings to find That Defenseman in one of the next two or three drafts. And even if I did fully trust the Wings on that front, the choice would still be A) Get Carlson and finally have some damn closure, or B) hope and pray that we get this s*** sorted out soon. So, from the Wings' perspective, Carlson might actually be worth something like $7.5M x 8. Because we need a Carlson that badly (arguably).

I'm not too concerned about our forward group, because we have Larkin and Mantha and Rasmussen and the Wings have been pretty good about finding good NHLers in later rounds. But the post-Lidstrom years have sort of conditioned me to always expect the worst about our defense situation. I worry that free agency is the only way we're getting an elite NHL defenseman within the next several years.

Yeah, I don't see Cholowski or Hronek as anything more than 2/3 defensemen. I think if we take Bouchard with our 6th overall pick, he could make the Wings roster out of camp, immediately be one of our better defensemen, and develop into a legit 1D within a few years.

The most we'd be able to sign Carlson would be 7 years, and I'd be comfortable with $7.5M, if we could offload one of Ericsson, DeKeyser or Daley, or if Kronwall ends up on LTIR. I'm really hoping this D-corp goes through a major overhaul over the next two seasons. I'd be okay if DeKeyser is the only defenseman remaining in two years time. And I'd definitely be okay with Carlson being part of that group, but only if we can A) get him on a reasonable contract, and B) offload a big contract / free up a roster spot.

DeKeyser - Carlson

Cholowski - Bouchard

Sulak - Hronek

That could be a pretty solid defense in a couple years time...

[chaps80 1,591]

6 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

The power of hindsight... You can say the same for literally any draft year, any team, any position. I think between Larsson, Petruzzelli, and Fulcher, we should have at least one quality goaltender coming in the next 2-3 years.

That's why i led the post with drafting goalies is often a crapshoot. Late rounders have become elite, first rounders have become busts. I'm not sure we'll see any of those three that quickly, unless the past way of over ripening goalies in the minors is out the window now. They brought Howard along slowly, and Mrazek would have been in the AHL longer too if he didn't come up and steal a spot. Hopefully the outlook towards that has changed. Really like to get Grubauer this summer somehow.