Official 2018 Off Season *Rebuild* Thread

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

Namita@nnstats

 

 

had a hunch last night that WSH is built through the entry draft more than most other playoff teams - in terms of both time on ice and @hockey_ref's Point Shares, they have a pretty high % of player contribution coming from players they've drafted and developed.

11:23 AM - Jun 5, 2018

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[krsmith17 7,191]

10 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

LOL. You know the season is over when ur haggling over 6/7 Dmen .

Anyway, the only potential D drafted that I think will be NHL ready by the end of Daley and E's contracts (2020) is if they draft one at #6.

True, but unless you are upgrading over E (which would be fine), bringing in another depth D to replace him would just be a lateral move. Why not then just keep the guy that you know already fits, who already understands the "Red Wing Way", and is presumably a good locker room presence. No guarantee that anyone brought in from outside would give you that.

Kronwall, and Ouellet  I agree with. I think Jensen gets traded rather than get a raise. I don't think Daley gets traded until the final year of his deal (2 years away). I don't think E gets traded before his contract is up. As for Green, either he's gone this summer or he's here thru at least 2020.

Why would the only potential defensemen drafted over the next two seasons that will be ready by 2020 be the number 6 overall this year? Sure, that could be the case, but there's no reason to think whoever we take with any of those picks mentioned (2018 - 30, 33, 36 (we could also move up) / 2019 potential top 10 pick), could be ready by then. Hronek was drafted 53rd overall in 2016, and he is expected to compete for a spot in training camp. I don't expect him to make it out of camp, but wouldn't be at all surprised if he is up at some point this season. We will likely be picking a defenseman 20 picks higher in what is projected to be a much deeper draft. I think it's a very strong possibility that whoever we draft there could be ready in two years time.

Of course I'm not suggesting a lateral move. I'd only replace Ericsson if we can find a quality replacement. Here's where I think we disagree... I think finding an upgrade over a 36 year old Ericsson will be very easy. There's also no guarantee that E would even want to continue to play beyond this contract. I'd say there's a high probability that he'd retire at 36. He will have made over $38M over his career with the Wings. Liv will be 7 years old, so he might want to spend more time with his wife and daughter, rather than playing another season (or however many you think he might play) as a 6th / 7th defenseman.

If we must keep a player or two around for "veteran leadership", my personal choice would be the two younger guys. I think a 30 year old DeKeyser and 29 year old Jensen would provide the same leadership qualities Ericsson would, while providing better play on the ice. I don't think Jensen would receive a significant raise, nor do I think Ericsson would take a significant pay-cut. Let's just say for argument's sake, we meet in the middle and we could sign either for $2.5M. I'd personally prefer a 29 year old Jensen over a 36 year old Ericsson at that cap hit, and like I said, I don't think Jensen would command that much, nor do I think Ericsson would sign for that little.

I really hope our biggest problem with the defense in two years time is who should be our 6th / 7th defenseman...

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

21 hours ago, Datsyukian-Deke said:

I wonder if it would be worth giving up a decent pick to shed either Helm, Abby, or Nielsen’s contract when the next expansion draft happens. 

If we want to get rid of those wastes we can't wait till the expansion draft comes closer since everyone will probably be doing the same.... helm doesn't have a no trade clause right ? I'd have no problem leaving him exposed but I'd try and move him , can still skate and on a contender I think he'd help a lot,  maybe a Tampa type team (Stevie would know he's got some value left) 

 

I dont know if abs has a full no trade but i think could get moved I'd we ate salary but I highly doubt it, I'd target Nielsen asap and explain we won't be contending anytime soon and it would be in his best interest to go to a contending team and maybe try and send him to a team like sj who's linked to Tavares and try and entice them and Nielsen into going in the hopes of attracting Tavares since if I recall he really liked nielsen(no chance he'd come here with out d being horrendous)

Anyone remember what the rules for expansion draft are?

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

12 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Why would the only potential defensemen drafted over the next two seasons that will be ready by 2020 be the number 6 overall this year? Sure, that could be the case, but there's no reason to think whoever we take with any of those picks mentioned (2018 - 30, 33, 36 (we could also move up) / 2019 potential top 10 pick), could be ready by then. Hronek was drafted 53rd overall in 2016, and he is expected to compete for a spot in training camp. I don't expect him to make it out of camp, but wouldn't be at all surprised if he is up at some point this season. We will likely be picking a defenseman 20 picks higher in what is projected to be a much deeper draft. I think it's a very strong possibility that whoever we draft there could be ready in two years time.

Of course I'm not suggesting a lateral move. I'd only replace Ericsson if we can find a quality replacement. Here's where I think we disagree... I think finding an upgrade over a 36 year old Ericsson will be very easy. There's also no guarantee that E would even want to continue to play beyond this contract. I'd say there's a high probability that he'd retire at 36. He will have made over $38M over his career with the Wings. Liv will be 7 years old, so he might want to spend more time with his wife and daughter, rather than playing another season (or however many you think he might play) as a 6th / 7th defenseman.

If we must keep a player or two around for "veteran leadership", my personal choice would be the two younger guys. I think a 30 year old DeKeyser and 29 year old Jensen would provide the same leadership qualities Ericsson would, while providing better play on the ice. I don't think Jensen would receive a significant raise, nor do I think Ericsson would take a significant pay-cut. Let's just say for argument's sake, we meet in the middle and we could sign either for $2.5M. I'd personally prefer a 29 year old Jensen over a 36 year old Ericsson at that cap hit, and like I said, I don't think Jensen would command that much, nor do I think Ericsson would sign for that little.

I really hope our biggest problem with the defense in two years time is who should be our 6th / 7th defenseman...

I would love to upgrade over a 36 yo E. It's not that I want to keep E after his contract, I'm just saying what I think will happen. I know this is a "New" Holland, but until I see him letting his overpaid vets walk, I am not convinced.

4 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

If we want to get rid of those wastes we can't wait till the expansion draft comes closer since everyone will probably be doing the same.... helm doesn't have a no trade clause right ? I'd have no problem leaving him exposed but I'd try and move him , can still skate and on a contender I think he'd help a lot,  maybe a Tampa type team (Stevie would know he's got some value left) 

 

I dont know if abs has a full no trade but i think could get moved I'd we ate salary but I highly doubt it, I'd target Nielsen asap and explain we won't be contending anytime soon and it would be in his best interest to go to a contending team and maybe try and send him to a team like sj who's linked to Tavares and try and entice them and Nielsen into going in the hopes of attracting Tavares since if I recall he really liked nielsen(no chance he'd come here with out d being horrendous)

Anyone remember what the rules for expansion draft are?

It will probably be the same rules as the Vegas draft.

https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-expansion-draft-rules/c-281010592

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/seattles-possible-nhl-expansion-draft-rules-vegas/

Chris Johnston

 

✔@reporterchris

 

NHL GMs have been told Seattle’s potential expansion draft would be conducted under the exact same rules as Vegas was, per Bill Daly.

10:41 AM - Mar 21, 2018

 

https://www.nhl.com/devils/news/nhl-expansion-draft-101/c-289908006

 a player with a no-movement clause in his contract must be included on a team's protected list unless he waives it. Players with no-trade clauses only do not qualify as no-movement clauses and must be protected or otherwise will be available to be selected.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[krsmith17 7,191]

46 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I would love to upgrade over a 36 yo E. It's not that I want to keep E after his contract, I'm just saying what I think will happen. I know this is a "New" Holland, but until I see him letting his overpaid vets walk, I am not convinced.

Fair enough.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

17 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I would love to upgrade over a 36 yo E. It's not that I want to keep E after his contract, I'm just saying what I think will happen. I know this is a "New" Holland, but until I see him letting his overpaid vets walk, I am not convinced.

It will probably be the same rules as the Vegas draft.

https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-expansion-draft-rules/c-281010592

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/seattles-possible-nhl-expansion-draft-rules-vegas/

Chris Johnston

 

✔@reporterchris

 

NHL GMs have been told Seattle’s potential expansion draft would be conducted under the exact same rules as Vegas was, per Bill Daly.

10:41 AM - Mar 21, 2018

 

https://www.nhl.com/devils/news/nhl-expansion-draft-101/c-289908006

 a player with a no-movement clause in his contract must be included on a team's protected list unless he waives it. Players with no-trade clauses only do not qualify as no-movement clauses and must be protected or otherwise will be available to be selected.

Thanks for that 

So do we Have To protect svechnkov,turgeon ,hicketts? I think if you play 3 ahl seasons then we Basically Have To protect them 

 

Anyone know if Nielsen has a full no trade ?  If so we should trade him asap

 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

2 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Thanks for that 

So do we Have To protect svechnkov,turgeon ,hicketts? I think if you play 3 ahl seasons then we Basically Have To protect them 

 

Anyone know if Nielsen has a full no trade ?  If so we should trade him asap

 

I only care about one of those players and hopefully he'll be traded to Carolina by then for Jake Bean 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Thanks for that 

So do we Have To protect svechnkov,turgeon ,hicketts? I think if you play 3 ahl seasons then we Basically Have To protect them 

 

Anyone know if Nielsen has a full no trade ?  If so we should trade him asap

 

If Nielsen has a full no trade clause we should trade him...

That's quite the sentence

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

1 minute ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

If Nielsen has a full no trade clause we should trade him...

That's quite the sentence

We send kocur and mccarthy To  convince him To waive his clause

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

https://www.wingingitinmotown.com/2016/9/10/12867420/darren-helm-no-trade-clause-with-the-red-wings-is-weird

• Darren Helm’s NTC kicks in immediately and goes through the first three seasons of the deal (through 2018-19) with no modification. Only Helm waiving this clause would allow him to be traded.
• If the Red Wings miss the playoffs in the 2018-19 season OR if Helm isn’t among the top 9 forwards on the team in terms of total ice time, then he will have no NTC protection between June 15th of 2019 and the trade deadline of the 2019-20 season (Year four of the deal).
• If the Red Wings miss the playoffs in the 2019-20 season OR if Helm isn’t among the top 9 forwards in terms of TOI, then his NTC is void from June 15, 2020 throughout the remainder of the contract (June 30, 2021).
• Another consideration to this is that this clause is strictly no-trade and does not have a no-movement consideration to it. While I wouldn’t be surprised if Helm is protected in the upcoming Las Vegas expansion draft, the Red Wings will not be required to do so, either in that draft or a potential upcoming [Seattle] expansion draft that’s likely to happen during the term of the Helm contract. Helm’s lack of NMC also means he won’t have any protection against the team putting him on waivers for another team to claim or for the purpose of assigning him to Grand Rapids if need be.
• ICYMI, Abdelkader’s NTC works the exact same way, except the modifications kick in for the final three seasons.

So in other words, I was wrong in my earlier post. They do not have to be protected in an expansion draft and can be claimed by Seattle, which is unlikely. If their NTC's are still active after this season tho, that would make it unlikely that they would be traded before the next expansion draft. I mean Holland could throw Seattle an asset in a trade in order to get them to take Helm or Abby in the draft, but at this point I would rather keep our picks and prospects and ride out their contracts. Unless of course KH is the Seattle GM, in which case I am sure he would pick one of them in the expansion draft without the Wings having to give up anything in exchange. Problem solved.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

Fun facts about Nielsen: (from Reddit)

• Frans Nielsen would have led the Red Wings in points if he had played for us in 16-17. He had 52 points and our team leader Zetterberg had 50.

• Nielsen interview from TSN (Summer 2017):

• something special about Detroit

• likes mix of young/old talent

• wanted to win

• excited about way DRW play game

• Nielsen interview on NHL XM Radio (Summer 2017):

• Tough not to listen when a team like DRW calls you

• Was really excited when DRW called

• With Datsyuk leaving, thought he had a good spot/be a good fit top-6 in DET

• "Zetterberg has always been my idol, favorite player"

• Had worked out with Z in summers, was blown away at how hard he works. Wants to be like him.

• Wife is due end of August. Staying in NY this summer, instead of going back to Europe (like usually does in summers)

• "Can't wait, really excited, can't explain how excited I am"

This is why I think he's here to stay.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[amato 3,210]

46 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Fun facts about Nielsen: (from Reddit)

• Frans Nielsen would have led the Red Wings in points if he had played for us in 16-17. He had 52 points and our team leader Zetterberg had 50.

• Nielsen interview from TSN (Summer 2017):

• something special about Detroit

• likes mix of young/old talent

• wanted to win

• excited about way DRW play game

• Nielsen interview on NHL XM Radio (Summer 2017):

• Tough not to listen when a team like DRW calls you

• Was really excited when DRW called

• With Datsyuk leaving, thought he had a good spot/be a good fit top-6 in DET

• "Zetterberg has always been my idol, favorite player"

• Had worked out with Z in summers, was blown away at how hard he works. Wants to be like him.

• Wife is due end of August. Staying in NY this summer, instead of going back to Europe (like usually does in summers)

• "Can't wait, really excited, can't explain how excited I am"

This is why I think he's here to stay.

Maybe he can convince Tavares to feel the same way  

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Montreal Fires 1/4 of Their Scouting Staff

Clearly NYI ownership switched to Lou over Garth to solidify management and keep Tavares. Wonder if players like Kuelmin jumping ship hurts the Islanders cause...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Mark Hunter + Dan Dylsma + Ilya Kovalcuk

That would be a historic offseason. Stealing a top Toronto brain, a former hated Penguins coach, and a top Russian FA.

Nyquist - Zetterberg - Kovalchuk
Abdelkader - Larkin - Mantha
Helm - Nielsen - Athanasiou
Bertuzzi - Glendening - Frk

Not bad, we have decent depth in the bottom 6

[AtlantaHotWings 984]

4 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Mark Hunter + Dan Dylsma + Ilya Kovalcuk

That would be a historic offseason. Stealing a top Toronto brain, a former hated Penguins coach, and a top Russian FA.

Nyquist - Zetterberg - Kovalchuk
Abdelkader - Larkin - Mantha
Helm - Nielsen - Athanasiou
Bertuzzi - Glendening - Frk

Not bad, we have decent depth in the bottom 6

Personally rather have Big Ras on this list vs Kovalchuk. I would like to see that young core start to jell for future runs. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

28 minutes ago, AtlantaHotWings said:

Personally rather have Big Ras on this list vs Kovalchuk. I would like to see that young core start to jell for future runs. 

... and Svechnikov. If the Red Wings sign any 30+ year old free agent and it causes Rasmussen or Svechnikov to be the odd man out, I'd be pissed.

The ONLY way I'm okay with signing Kovalchuk, is if it's a 1 year deal, for the sole purpose of gaining assets by trading him at the deadline.

Assuming they have strong seasons, we could get a minimum of three 1st / 2nd round picks for Kovalchuk, Nyquist and Howard at next year's deadline. That on top of the three we already have, next year should be another HUGE draft for the Red Wings.

IF we were to sign Kovalchuk (I still don't see it happening), I think one of Athanasiou or Svechnikov have to be traded in a package for a defenseman.

Nyquist - Zetterberg - Kovalchuk

Bertuzzi - Larkin - Mantha

Rasmussen - Nielsen - Athanasiou / Svechnikov / Frk

Abdeklader - Helm - Glendening

 

[BinMucker94 302]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

... and Svechnikov. If the Red Wings sign any 30+ year old free agent and it causes Rasmussen or Svechnikov to be the odd man out, I'd be pissed.

The ONLY way I'm okay with signing Kovalchuk, is if it's a 1 year deal, for the sole purpose of gaining assets by trading him at the deadline.

Assuming they have strong seasons, we could get a minimum of three 1st / 2nd round picks for Kovalchuk, Nyquist and Howard at next year's deadline. That on top of the three we already have, next year should be another HUGE draft for the Red Wings.

IF we were to sign Kovalchuk (I still don't see it happening), I think one of Athanasiou or Svechnikov have to be traded in a package for a defenseman.

Nyquist - Zetterberg - Kovalchuk

Bertuzzi - Larkin - Mantha

Rasmussen - Nielsen - Athanasiou / Svechnikov / Frk

Abdeklader - Helm - Glendening

 

Trade AA in a package for the 7th overall and take Wahlstrom. Then trade Svechnikov in a package for Bean. 

Probably won’t happen but I’m my opinion would extremely speed up this rebuild.

Lines 1, 2, and 4 can stay the same. Just add Wahlstrom to Rass and Nielsen’s line. Frk rotates in if needed.

Then on D you’ll add Bean and our 6th overall pick to our current prospect pool. All those kids come up in the next 1-4 years depending on their development. We should have a very young, fast, mobile, puck moving d-core.

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

30 minutes ago, BinMucker94 said:

Trade AA in a package for the 7th overall and take Wahlstrom. Then trade Svechnikov in a package for Bean. 

Probably won’t happen but I’m my opinion would extremely speed up this rebuild.

Lines 1, 2, and 4 can stay the same. Just add Wahlstrom to Rass and Nielsen’s line. Frk rotates in if needed.

Then on D you’ll add Bean and our 6th overall pick to our current prospect pool. All those kids come up in the next 1-4 years depending on their development. We should have a very young, fast, mobile, puck moving d-core.

I couldn't agree more. Dream scenario.

There are also rumblings of the Jets possibly having issues re-signing Trouba again this summer. I'm sure they'll work something out, and much like Wahlstrom and Bean, it's just a pipedream, but imagine somehow acquiring Trouba as well...

Our D could look something like this in a couple years time...

DeKeyser - Trouba

Bean - Bouchard

Cholowski - Hronek

And our top 6 could look something like this...

Mantha - Larkin - Wahlstrom

Bertuzzi - Rasmussen - Bokk

 

But of course, none of this will happen. We won't make any meaningful trades or free agent signings, and we won't draft any of the players mentioned...

[amato 3,210]

3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I couldn't agree more. Dream scenario.

There are also rumblings of the Jets possibly having issues re-signing Trouba again this summer. I'm sure they'll work something out, and much like Wahlstrom and Bean, it's just a pipedream, but imagine somehow acquiring Trouba as well...

Our D could look something like this in a couple years time...

DeKeyser - Trouba

Bean - Bouchard

Cholowski - Hronek

And our top 6 could look something like this...

Mantha - Larkin - Wahlstrom

Bertuzzi - Rasmussen - Bokk

 

But of course, none of this will happen. We won't make any meaningful trades or free agent signings, and we won't draft any of the players mentioned...

 

Hey now, where's the positivity?? You could get part of your defensive wishes.... DeKeyser will probably still be here.  

 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

20 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I couldn't agree more. Dream scenario.

There are also rumblings of the Jets possibly having issues re-signing Trouba again this summer. I'm sure they'll work something out, and much like Wahlstrom and Bean, it's just a pipedream, but imagine somehow acquiring Trouba as well...

Our D could look something like this in a couple years time...

DeKeyser - Trouba

Bean - Bouchard

Cholowski - Hronek

And our top 6 could look something like this...

Mantha - Larkin - Wahlstrom

Bertuzzi - Rasmussen - Bokk

 

But of course, none of this will happen. We won't make any meaningful trades or free agent signings, and we won't draft any of the players mentioned...

It won't happen because the assets aren't there to make the three deals you talk about. Say nothing of the will of other parties to make the deal. Svech and the 30th might get you Bean because there's an opportunity there if the Hurricanes take lil brother. Make that one deal if you can maybe and hope Trouba signs as a UFA when this team is closer to being competitive. 

Trading for Van's 7th is a pipe dream. Obviously.

If I'm reading this wrong, I apologize, but you make it sound like the only barrier in making these deals is 'cuz Holland' and The Wings org. When what's really standing in the way is reality. 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2018 by The 91 of Ryans
spelling

[krsmith17 7,191]

13 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

It won't happen because the assets aren't there to make the three deals you talk about. Svech and the 30th might get you Bean. Make that one deal maybe and hope Trouba signs as a UFA when this team is closer to being competitive. 

Trading for Van's 7th is a pipe dream. Obviously.

If I'm reading this wrong, I apologize, but you make it sound like the only barrier in making these deals is 'cuz Holland' and The Wings org. When what's really standing in the way is reality.

I'm not sure where you're getting that. Yes, you did read wrong. I said right in my post that it's a "dream scenario" and a "pipe dream". I do think it's possible, but it would take everything going right for it to work out...

Trouba would have to hold out, and make it public that he wants to leave Winnipeg and move closer to home. - Unlikely (especially with Jets looking to be on the verge of something special).

Carolina would have to really want to reunite the Svech bros and be willing to give up there top defense prospect to make it happen. - Unlikely

Vancouver's 7th overall is likely out of the question, but I wouldn't say Edmonton's 10th overall necessarily is. However, this scenario would still require Wahlstrom to fall quite a bit. - Unlikely

If I were to pick one of these "dream scenarios" to come to fruition, I'd probably want the top 10 pick. Even then, I doubt we'd draft both Bouchard and Wahlstrom, but I'd be happy with Bouchard and Kotkaniemi or Wahlstrom and Dobson.

I certainly wouldn't blame Holland if he couldn't pull off these moves, because all of them are fairly unlikely. If he could pull one off, I'd be happy.

I do think it's a reasonably good possibility that he could trade Athanasiou for a defenseman this off-season. I just don't believe that defenseman will be Bean. I'm okay with that, as long as he's in that age range with the same sort of potential.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

^ Well explained. Gotcha. 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

23 hours ago, amato said:

Maybe he can convince Tavares to feel the same way  

Not bloody likely.

 

10 hours ago, amato said:

 

Hey now, where's the positivity?? You could get part of your defensive wishes.... DeKeyser will probably still be here.  

 

So the glass is 1/6 full. Way to be positive.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

11 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

The problem is that our players suck.  What could we get for Abdelkader, Nielsen, and Helm if they didn't have NTCs?  Jack and Squat.   They suck and are highly overpaid.  Trading for one of them is like asking the dentist for a cavity.

No they don't.

Yes, they are.

If they were paid more in line with what middle 6 wingers make (Abby) and 3rd line defensive specialists make (Helm), Holland would have absolutely no problem trading either one without a NTC. While just about everyone agrees with the "overpaid" argument, the only ones who think they actually suck are LGWers, and I can think of about 30 other teams who would disagree with that assessment.

 

BTW, just out of curiosity, why does everyone seem to prefer Bean over Hanifin? If I could choose between them,I would choose Hanifin.

[BinMucker94 302]

25 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

No they don't.

Yes, they are.

If they were paid more in line with what middle 6 wingers make (Abby) and 3rd line defensive specialists make (Helm), Holland would have absolutely no problem trading either one without a NTC. While just about everyone agrees with the "overpaid" argument, the only ones who think they actually suck are LGWers, and I can think of about 30 other teams who would disagree with that assessment.

 

BTW, just out of curiosity, why does everyone seem to prefer Bean over Hanifin? If I could choose between them,I would choose Hanifin.

I think most would prefer Hanifin, it’s just a matter of how many assets are you comfortable giving up for him. Bean would be way cheaper to acquire but Hanifin might be worth the price as he has already established himself as a very solid defenseman in the show.