Official 2018 Off Season *Rebuild* Thread

[TLGTrico 627]

So who's ready to once again be a bottom feeding team that's right up against the cap?

[LeftWinger 4,961]

2 minutes ago, TLGTrico said:

So who's ready to once again be a bottom feeding team that's right up against the cap?

Ready or not, here we come.

[kliq 3,755]

5 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

If all it would take was AA, 2019 2nd, 2020 1st, I'd be all in for sure.Thats one less asset than I suggested and same draft picks. That would be great.

I would do it, but I don't think that would get him. I don't mind giving up the first because with Trouba I think this teams pick likely moves into the teens.

[amato 3,210]

7 hours ago, Euro_Twins said:

They could do it either way I suppose. But the only way they get what they want for him is if they are guaranteeing him for 9 years, which means the two interested parties and karlsson would have to agree on ths contract. 

Right, most likely an extension would already be agreed upon before the trade. It’ll be the most Ottawa Senators thing ever when they mess this up though  

[krsmith17 7,191]

There's no way a team gets Karlsson without giving up their 2019 first round pick. They're going to want to replenish the pick they lost in the Duchene deal. We're not going to get him with a 2019 2nd, 2020 first, and a couple spare parts. It would likely cost us come combination of 2019 1st, 2019 2nd / 2020 1st, Larkin / Mantha, Hronek. That's way too much to give up for a 28 year old defenseman, for a team that is rebuilding and likely 3+ years away, even if he is signed for 9 years. I agree with those saying that Trouba would be a much more realistic option. He's 4 years younger, and would cost much less. I personally want no part of the Karlsson sweepstakes, and am glad to hear Kenny doesn't either. If he hits free agency, sure, go all in. But trade? No thanks.

[Datsyukian-Deke 722]

20 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

There's no way a team gets Karlsson without giving up their 2019 first round pick. They're going to want to replenish the pick they lost in the Duchene deal. We're not going to get him with a 2019 2nd, 2020 first, and a couple spare parts. It would likely cost us come combination of 2019 1st, 2019 2nd / 2020 1st, Larkin / Mantha, Hronek. That's way too much to give up for a 28 year old defenseman, for a team that is rebuilding and likely 3+ years away, even if he is signed for 9 years. I agree with those saying that Trouba would be a much more realistic option. He's 4 years younger, and would cost much less. I personally want no part of the Karlsson sweepstakes, and am glad to hear Kenny doesn't either. If he hits free agency, sure, go all in. But trade? No thanks.

I don’t think any team will do that trade. They will force Ottawa to keep him until the last minute so Ottawa has to choose between doing a panic trade or risk losing him for nothing. 

[e_prime 1,936]

13 hours ago, Euro_Twins said:

The whole point is he'll be signed and traded. So you'll have him for 9 years 

 

19 minutes ago, Datsyukian-Deke said:

I don’t think any team will do that trade. They will force Ottawa to keep him until the last minute so Ottawa has to choose between doing a panic trade or risk losing him for nothing. 

This was my point.  I think teams should be patient because why give up assets you don't have to for an additional year.  Karlsson isn't staying.  Ottawa knows it.  They want teams to make their deal now so they can dictate the return on the trade. If you make your best offer mid-year when talks have cooled off and the Sens start to worry, they will probably take it. (Not that I think anyone is going to stop talking about this until Erik Karlsson is no longer a Sen.)

Even if you push it to the deadline and you end up bidding with teams at a slightly higher rate, it will still certainly be less than what it'll cost you this summer.  

[krsmith17 7,191]

48 minutes ago, Datsyukian-Deke said:

I don’t think any team will do that trade. They will force Ottawa to keep him until the last minute so Ottawa has to choose between doing a panic trade or risk losing him for nothing. 

22 minutes ago, e_prime said:

This was my point.  I think teams should be patient because why give up assets you don't have to for an additional year.  Karlsson isn't staying.  Ottawa knows it.  They want teams to make their deal now so they can dictate the return on the trade. If you make your best offer mid-year when talks have cooled off and the Sens start to worry, they will probably take it. (Not that I think anyone is going to stop talking about this until Erik Karlsson is no longer a Sen.)

Even if you push it to the deadline and you end up bidding with teams at a slightly higher rate, it will still certainly be less than what it'll cost you this summer.  

You really don't think a team will massively overpay? I do. Teams that are interested in trading for Karlsson, aren't going to risk waiting until last minute because they know some other team will swoop in and make the trade before they get a chance. Sure, teams should be patient to lower the price, but they're not going to. For the same reason, when a big name free agent hits the market, teams don't all decide as a collective group that they're going to wait it out to avoid overpaying. The first team with the opportunity, signs the player to a massive contract that usually ends up hurting the team long term. A team that is in win-now mode, can afford to take that risk, to hopefully have an opportunity to win a Cup. We're far from win-now mode. Trading for Karlsson would be a bad idea for this team in my opinion.

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

 

[Dabura 12,207]

19 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Possible deal for Trouba still? I'd love to get Karlsson, but the price is probabl WAY too much, plus I don't think Holland has the cap to take on the Ryan contract.  I think it would cost less (still expensive though) to acquire Trouba. Re-signing him would be a snap, being that he is from here. Honestly, looking at the two, even though Karlsson has the Norris and pedigree, I think it would be more beneficial for the Wings to pursue Trouba.

If Trouba becomes a tough re-sign again in The 'Peg, wonder what the asking price would be?  I've stated before that acquiring Trouba, plus all the higher end talent we have drafted up front could very well allow us to give up a 2020 1st in a package without missing a beat in our rebuild. I'd even be ok with it being a NON lottery protected 1st.

Would you do AA, Helm, 2020 1st, 2019 2nd for Trouba? Or would it cost a bit more in NHL players? Would you replace the 2nd with Cholowski or Hronek? What does Winnipeg need? If they are trading Trouba, they may need a young D prospect, and I am sure they'd love AA on a line with Laine.

re: Zadina

IMO he (and Ras) have to be on this team in the fall. We need to make a deal or two in order to make that happen. As mentioned Frk would probably be the first casualty, but then who next? Do you revisit the Glenny to Toronto deal? Does a 5th round sound too low now if it meant having Zadina and Ras on the team? Babcock loves him so Glenny.  Or do you go a different route and try to deal Nyquist? I believe if they do deal him, it'll be at the TDL for a nice return like Tatar's haul we received.

Nielsen now has a M-NTC that includes a 10 team no-trade list. Would The Isles be interested in re-acquiring him? They have plenty of cap room, and are in need of a center now. He's no Tavares, but he is a bit better than Filppula. I doubt he gets traded though.

Bottom line is we need to have Zadina and Ras (at least) on this team this fall. I'd also love to have Veleno there, but I don't think he will be. So we really need to open up 2 roster spots up front (you can pretty much count on Frk getting waived) for this to happen. Somehow, someway...

It would be an injustice for either of those two to go back to juniors.

If we waived Frk and dealt Glenny, I'd love to see something along the lines of this:

AA - Larkin - Zadina

Nyquist - Zetterberg - Mantha

Ras - Nielsen - Vanek

Abby - Helm - Bertuzzi

(some players interchangeable of course)

(this is not reflecting a Trouba trade, if we acquired Trouba, we probably could open up 3 roster spots up front. Problem solved.)

I'm just looking at the bigger picture. Maybe we could get Trouba, but does that really accelerate the rebuild? With all the top UFAs pretty much off the table and our defense -- present and future -- not looking good, the reality is starting to sink in for me: we're in for a long(ish) rebuild. Barring a miracle or two, of course.

59 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

 

Trading within the division. Cool. Awesome. Spectacular. I'm all about this. Woo doggy. Yessir. Happy day.

Edited July 5, 2018 by Dabura

[e_prime 1,936]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

You really don't think a team will massively overpay? I do. Teams that are interested in trading for Karlsson, aren't going to risk waiting until last minute because they know some other team will swoop in and make the trade before they get a chance. Sure, teams should be patient to lower the price, but they're not going to. For the same reason, when a big name free agent hits the market, teams don't all decide as a collective group that they're going to wait it out to avoid overpaying. The first team with the opportunity, signs the player to a massive contract that usually ends up hurting the team long term. A team that is in win-now mode, can afford to take that risk, to hopefully have an opportunity to win a Cup. We're far from win-now mode. Trading for Karlsson would be a bad idea for this team in my opinion.

 

Do I think they will?  Yes.   Do I think they should?  No. 

...you would think GMs would learn?  

Agreed. We have no business trading for Erik Karlsson.

Edited July 5, 2018 by e_prime

[amato 3,210]

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

 

 

Just saw this. Will be reallyyy curious to see what goes the other way. Tampa only has 4.5 mill in cap space and Kucherov/Point need new contracts after this year. It’ll be insane if they pull it off and have Hedman, Karlsson, and McDonagh as their top 3 defensemen. 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

19 minutes ago, amato said:

 

Just saw this. Will be reallyyy curious to see what goes the other way. Tampa only has 4.5 mill in cap space and Kucherov/Point need new contracts after this year. It’ll be insane if they pull it off and have Hedman, Karlsson, and McDonagh as their top 3 defensemen. 

I don't see it. They just extended McDonagh long term and they're gonna have Hedman long term. Plus Kucherov and Vasilevsky will be expensive. Can't see how they fit everyone under the cap unless they go with only 18 players.

[amato 3,210]

7 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I don't see it. They just extended McDonagh long term and they're gonna have Hedman long term. Plus Kucherov and Vasilevsky will be expensive. Can't see how they fit everyone under the cap unless they go with only 18 players.

They do also have Stralman, Coburn, and Girardi who could potentially come off the books next year. They’d have to do a little more than that to make it work, I’m sure, but that’s around 11 mill off the books if they don’t bring them back. 

[Dabura 12,207]

4 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

Am I the only one who feels his surgically repaired ankle is nowhere near 100% and in a matter of a few seasons from now he’ll be on IR more games than not?

That would be my biggest concern with him, yeah.

[LeftWinger 4,961]

1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I don't see it. They just extended McDonagh long term and they're gonna have Hedman long term. Plus Kucherov and Vasilevsky will be expensive. Can't see how they fit everyone under the cap unless they go with only 18 players.

Let's no forget Sergachev will get a huge raise in two seasons.

Most of their current D have NTC's and I would be surprised if any of them waive it to go to Ottawa. If Tampa is the front runner, don't know how they'll fit him. I'm sure Foote will be so happy to go to Ottawa as well!

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

48 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Let's no forget Sergachev will get a huge raise in two seasons.

Most of their current D have NTC's and I would be surprised if any of them waive it to go to Ottawa. If Tampa is the front runner, don't know how they'll fit him. I'm sure Foote will be so happy to go to Ottawa as well!

 

Sergachev would be a prime candidate to go the other way in the deal. But with Yzerman involved and Tampa being so tight to the cap, I can see this being a three way deal. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

 

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

9 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

 

 

So Mantha and Larkin are gonna get fuqqin paid huh?

[krsmith17 7,191]

24 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

So Mantha and Larkin are gonna get fuqqin paid huh?

Well we only have approximately $4.5M in cap space remaining (not including Franzen on IR) to sign Larkin and Mantha...

There has to be a trade in the works... Doesn't there?

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Well we only have approximately $4.5M in cap space remaining (not including Franzen on IR) to sign Larkin and Mantha...

There has to be a trade in the works... Doesn't there?

I feel like we say this every year thou... not holding my breath

[SwedeLundin77 460]

14 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Well we only have approximately $4.5M in cap space remaining (not including Franzen on IR) to sign Larkin and Mantha...

There has to be a trade in the works... Doesn't there?

They can, and will most likely waive Frk and his $1,050,000 in the minors now. Unless my math is wrong... they have roughly $10,099,169 to sign Larkin and Mantha. That figure takes Franzen's cap hit out and includes the buyouts of Weiss and Ouellet. It also includes Rasmussen and Cholowski (Hronek makes less than Cholo and Zadina is not signed yet).

Just checked (https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/redwings). I think I'm right after you exclude Franzen's cap hit and waive Frk. So they're fine to sign everyone and bring 3 rookies up.

I could see Larkin getting a 5-year deal around 5.5 million and Mantha a 2-year deal around 4 million.

Edited July 5, 2018 by SwedeLundin77

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 minutes ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

They can, and will most likely waive Frk and his $1,050,000 in the minors now. Unless my math is wrong... they have roughly $10,099,169 to sign Larkin and Mantha. That figure takes Franzen's cap hit out and includes the buyouts of Weiss and Ouellet. It also includes Rasmussen and Cholowski (Hronek makes less than Cholo and Zadina is not signed yet).

Just checked (https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/redwings). I think I'm right after you exclude Franzen's cap hit and waive Frk. So they're fine to sign everyone and bring 3 rookies up.

I don't see how / why Frk would be waived though. Assuming we go with the standard 14/7/2 (23-man) roster, two forwards and one defenseman need to be healthy scratched every night. The most logical choice in my opinion would be Frk, Witkowski and Jensen / Hicketts (Cholowski won't make the team). If you waive Frk, who becomes your regular healthy scratch among forwards with Witkowski? Glendening isn't going to be scratched every night, nor is Helm or Abdelkader. You don't want a young kid up in the press box every night when they can be getting big minutes in Grand Rapids (or junior for that matter). To me, Frk was brought back to be that guy, play a scattered game, and fill in for injuries.

Regarding the cap, like I said, I didn't include Franzen's LTIR in my $4.5M. I included Rasmussen and Hicketts, and I came out with $4,598,790 remaining, plus Franzen's $3,954,545, which is still only $8,553,335... I'm not sure where you're getting over $10M...

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't see how / why Frk would be waived though. Assuming we go with the standard 14/7/2 (23-man) roster, two forwards and one defenseman need to be healthy scratched every night. The most logical choice in my opinion would be Frk, Witkowski and Jensen / Hicketts (Cholowski won't make the team). If you waive Frk, who becomes your regular healthy scratch among forwards with Witkowski? Glendening isn't going to be scratched every night, nor is Helm or Abdelkader. You don't want a young kid up in the press box every night when they can be getting big minutes in Grand Rapids (or junior for that matter). To me, Frk was brought back to be that guy, play a scattered game, and fill in for injuries.