Our draft position

[LeftWinger 4,951]

On the D, it's still not out of the question Kronner hangs it up, or sees significantly less games. Green is a huge question for sure. I agree XO should dealt, probably be dealt for a 5th at the draft.

Open - Daley

DD - Open

Ericsson  - Jensen

Kronner may play all season, maybe not, so he could pick up 7th man duties or 2nd pairing. 

I believe if we draft any of the top 4 D, Dahlin, Bouchard, Boqvist or Hughes, they could make the team. It still leaves a spot for Hicketts and if Kronner calls it quits, another kid.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

Of course Noah Dobson has rocketed up too. He just may be what a team like ours is looking for. But then the Q has a way of inflating stats. He is legit thougb and right handed too! 

Edited April 16, 2018 by LeftWinger

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

20 minutes ago, WingedWheel91 said:

Let me clear this up for everyone:

Next year, if we get lucky - we may have: Dahlin/Boqvist, Hronek, and Cholowski all ready to make our team. Maybe they are ready, maybe they aren't... But it's not even a possibility considering we have Ericsson, Kronwall, Dekeyser, Daley and potentially Mike Green (who was actually our best Dman this season) signed to multi-year contracts.

The same can be said the following year, and then the year after that.

Given how bad we were last season, and how many contracts we already had locked in - I didn't agree with giving away another roster spot for 3 seasons to a guy that produces very little... Especially at 34 years old. What happens? We finish in an even lower spot this year and trade away everyone we possibly can at the deadline for futures... but good thing we have that calming stop gap on D to help the transition!

 

 

 

Looks like we've come full circle lol

Dahlin will probably walk on to whichever team drafts him, maybe that's us. Boqvist, Hronek, and Cholowski are not gonna make the team next year. Sure there's always a chance, but that's a very slim one.

The big question is, are you gonna quit the forum again when Holland signs an FA in 2 months?

Edited April 16, 2018 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

5 hours ago, WingedWheel91 said:

I have seen several posts saying things like "you don't throw prospects into the deep end and expect them to swim", but that isn't the case with all players.

In the case of this team/roster it is. Hicketts is not, and probably never will be, a top 4D. Throwing him into a role that he isn't suited for (top 4) IS "throwing him into the deep end". Which is why, as has already been said, he is being blocked by other bottom pair D (XO and Jensen), not Daley.

 

3 hours ago, WingedWheel91 said:

Next year, if we get lucky - we may have: Dahlin/Boqvist, Hronek, and Cholowski all ready to make our team.

If we get Dahlin, we put him on the top pair and don't re-sign Green. Trade/waive XO to bring in Hicketts or go with 8 D. Simple.

The rest of these guys won't be ready for the NHL next year. If any of them are going to be future top pair defensemen, than they need minutes, lots of them. The best way to do that is by playing them 20 minutes a game in GR. Just because a guy is "NHL ready", doesn't make him ready for the role he will play there. Again, throwing any one of them into big defensive responsibilities right away in the NHL would be a mistake. Bringing them up to play sparingly won't really help either. You keep guys like that developing in GR until they are absolutely ready..than you bring them up onto your 2nd pair and play them with say...IDK...someone like...DALEY!

And by the time ALL of the kids are ready, all of those horrible geriatric contracts will be off the roster anyway. The idea that this team will suddenly have all Hronek, Cholowski, Saarajarvi, 2018 D pick, all up at once is not realistic. You can't change out your D corp that drastically. As guys like E, Kronner, Green, and Daley leave, you replace them with newer blood. This happens over multiple seasons, not all at once. It's how the NHL works. We aren't reinventing the wheel here.

 

Edited April 17, 2018 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

7 hours ago, WingedWheel91 said:

#1 - Daley's signing (not his fault) caused the departure of Ryan Sproul... Who (assuming he had the same production in DET he did in NY) would be a much more valuable asset today than Daley is.

#2 - Everything in terms of health and production went better than expected for our defenceman this year, and we were the 5th worst team in the NHL? What exactly did he bring to our team?

1. There is not one GM in the NHL who would want Sproul over Daley. None.

2. Notice how DD and E had better seasons this year? Notice how Kronwall stayed the healthiest he's been in 3 years? Why do you think that is?

 

[BinMucker94 302]

12 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

1. There is not one GM in the NHL who would want Sproul over Daley. None.

2. Notice how DD and E had better seasons this Notice how Kronwall stayed the healthiest he's been in 3 years? Why do you think that is?

 

 

I’m going to guess because Daley played big/tough minutes allowing the others to play within their roles.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

5 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

This is the guy I want.  25 mins a night of solid 2 way defense.  We need a 1A and a 1B.  He's a 1B.  If we get Dahlin, great.  If not, at least fill the 1B hole.

 

[LeftWinger 4,951]

On 4/17/2018 at 11:17 AM, Jonas Mahonas said:

This is the guy I want.  25 mins a night of solid 2 way defense.  We need a 1A and a 1B.  He's a 1B.  If we get Dahlin, great.  If not, at least fill the 1B hole.

 

_______ - Dobson

Jensen - Cholowski

Saarijarvi - Hronek

 

Plenty of room to give Karlsson top dollar. 

What have you done with the rest of our Current D? You mention giving Karlsson top dollar, that will be next summer, we'd still have DD, Daley and Eriksson under contract at that point. 

[WingedWheel91 271]

On 4/17/2018 at 11:17 AM, Jonas Mahonas said:

This is the guy I want.  25 mins a night of solid 2 way defense.  We need a 1A and a 1B.  He's a 1B.  If we get Dahlin, great.  If not, at least fill the 1B hole.

 

_______ - Dobson

Jensen - Cholowski

Saarijarvi - Hronek

 

Plenty of room to give Karlsson top dollar. 

Looks really nice, lots of potential...dare I say something to be excited about? I just can't understand how you expect to succeed with such a young, exciting group of defencemen. Shouldn't you have atleast a couple 34 year old unproductive veterans in there to protect the confidence of those players? 

Because like, Vegas is like, about to win a cup with this top 6:

Shea Theodore (Age 22), Nate Schmidt (Age 26), Brayden Mcnabb (Age 27), Deryk Engelland (Age 36), Colin Miller (Age 25) and Jon Merril (Age 26).

Hmm... That's weird, no elite players, average age of 27, and top 7 in GAA through the regular season? Impossible.

Can't wait to have Green, Daley, Ericsson, Dekeyser and Kronwall locked in to our dumpster fire of a defence for the next few seasons. That Daley signing was awesome though! Progressive thinking at its finest! I hope Green gets 3 years this summer too, cuz like, more veterans!

 

 

[RightWeiner 17]

18 minutes ago, WingedWheel91 said:

Looks really nice, lots of potential...dare I say something to be excited about? I just can't understand how you expect to succeed with such a young, exciting group of defencemen. Shouldn't you have atleast a couple 34 year old unproductive veterans in there to protect the confidence of those players? 

Because like, Vegas is like, about to win a cup with this top 6:

Shea Theodore (Age 22), Nate Schmidt (Age 26), Brayden Mcnabb (Age 27), Deryk Engelland (Age 36), Colin Miller (Age 25) and Jon Merril (Age 26).

Hmm... That's weird, no elite players, average age of 27, and top 7 in GAA through the regular season? Impossible.

Can't wait to have Green, Daley, Ericsson, Dekeyser and Kronwall locked in to our dumpster fire of a defence for the next few seasons. That Daley signing was awesome though! Progressive thinking at its finest! I hope Green gets 3 years this summer too, cuz like, more veterans!

 

 

Man you still don't get it...

[krsmith17 7,191]

44 minutes ago, RightWeiner said:

Man you still don't get it...

I think he gets it, he's just taking it to an extreme, in another attempt to get his point across. It's not going to work though because people see Daley as a good defenseman, on a good contract (which is true), and automatically think that it was a good signing for the Red Wings. It wasn't. We are a team that should be rebuilding, with the oldest defense in the league, and we add a player that makes us even older. It makes no sense. I would have been perfectly content if we signed Daley and moved another veteran in the process, but not to have 6 veterans on the team, 27+, with no room for any of the kids for the next couple years.

Anyway, what's done is done. The contract was signed. Holland admitted that we need to get younger. So to do that, he's going to need to make room for at least one of the kids this year, and maybe two more the following season. Some veterans need to go, whether it's through trade, IR, or expiring contract.

Edited April 19, 2018 by krsmith17

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

47 minutes ago, WingedWheel91 said:

Looks really nice, lots of potential...dare I say something to be excited about? I just can't understand how you expect to succeed with such a young, exciting group of defencemen. Shouldn't you have atleast a couple 34 year old unproductive veterans in there to protect the confidence of those players? 

Because like, Vegas is like, about to win a cup with this top 6:

Shea Theodore (Age 22), Nate Schmidt (Age 26), Brayden Mcnabb (Age 27), Deryk Engelland (Age 36), Colin Miller (Age 25) and Jon Merril (Age 26).

Hmm... That's weird, no elite players, average age of 27, and top 7 in GAA through the regular season? Impossible.

Can't wait to have Green, Daley, Ericsson, Dekeyser and Kronwall locked in to our dumpster fire of a defence for the next few seasons. That Daley signing was awesome though! Progressive thinking at its finest! I hope Green gets 3 years this summer too, cuz like, more veterans!

 

 

I see we've devolved into fallacy and sarcasm to avoid an actual discussion, oh well. See you again this time next year!

[WingedWheel91 271]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I see we've devolved into fallacy and sarcasm to avoid an actual discussion, oh well. See you again this time next year!

Were a Mike Green signing away from this reality.

[marcaractac 3,962]

20 minutes ago, WingedWheel91 said:

Were a Mike Green signing away from this reality.

[WingedWheel91 271]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I think he gets it, he's just taking it to an extreme, in another attempt to get his point across. It's not going to work though because people see Daley as a good defenseman, on a good contract (which is true), and automatically think that it was a good signing for the Red Wings. It wasn't. We are a team that should be rebuilding, with the oldest defense in the league, and we add a player that makes us even older. It makes no sense. I would have been perfectly content if we signed Daley and moved another veteran in the process, but not to have 6 veterans on the team, 27+, with no room for any of the kids for the next couple years.

Anyway, what's done is done. The contract was signed. Holland admitted that we need to get younger. So to do that, he's going to need to make room for at least one of the kids this year, and maybe two more the following season. Some veterans need to go, whether it's through trade, IR, or expiring contract.

My old buddy KRSmith and I have had several disagreements in the past, but I guess we see clearly on this topic.

To add to his point, or maybe explain it another way (for the last time):

Individually: Daley, Kronwall, DD, Ericsson, Green are all decent players and could help a contending team without crippling them financially.

Collectively: This was possibly the worst group of defenceman in the league last season, and offer us no hope for improvement next year. Combined, they also offer very little roster flexibility (NTC, NMC) and cancel any hope for major turnover in the near future.

Daley was just the most recent (un-neccessary) addition to this group of older, un-productive, long term players - which is why I have primarily discussed his name... 

 

[LeftWinger 4,951]

1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Exactly.  There is no way to win without 4 or 5 guys that can provide veteran leadership.  Talent,  Stamina,  Durability, and Energy are all irrelevant.  It's those intangibles (veteran leadership, locker room presence, and loyalty) that are the musts.  

Don't forget complacency. They are set in their ways.

[WingedWheel91 271]

54 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Spot on.  Green would slot well into the #3 spot if we had:

 

Dahlin-Jensen

Hicketts-Green

Hronek-Cholowski

Saarijarvi

 

But adding him to 4 futureless defensemen (Ericsson, DeKeyser, Kronwall, Daley) just means we stall out our prospects.  Ken Holland doomed the Wings with these contracts.  And it looks like he will continue to do it.

 

 

As long as you agree that it's an intangible.  I don't want to be able to see it.

Even if that was Boqvist/Bouchard instead of Dahlin, I'm still happy.

[xault 272]

What are the chances....

 

We move back in the draft out of the top 5?

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 minutes ago, xault said:

What are the chances....

We move back in the draft out of the top 5?

Statistically, it's the most likely scenario...

There's a 65.5% chance we move back to 6 (34.5%), 7 (26.7%), or 8 (4.3%)... There's only a 26.1% chance we move up to 3 (8.9%), 2 (8.7%), or 1 (8.5%), and an 8.4% chance we stay at 5...

F*** the stats though! We're moving up into the top 3!

[xault 272]

56 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Statistically, it's the most likely scenario...

There's a 65.5% chance we move back to 6 (34.5%), 7 (26.7%), or 8 (4.3%)... There's only a 26.1% chance we move up to 3 (8.9%), 2 (8.7%), or 1 (8.5%), and an 8.4% chance we stay at 5...

F*** the stats though! We're moving up into the top 3!

I kind of feel sick to my stomach now. I didn't know it was that high of a chance to move back.  Only 8.4% of staying at 5 scares the crap out of me

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

26 minutes ago, xault said:

I kind of feel sick to my stomach now. I didn't know it was that high of a chance to move back.  Only 8.4% of staying at 5 scares the crap out of me

And that's why tanking guarantees nothing

[Dabura 12,207]

10 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

And that's why tanking guarantees nothing

I wonder if teams will start tanking because of that risk of being pushed back several spots. Finishing 31st doesn't guarantee you the 1st overall pick or even the 2nd or the 3rd, but it does guarantee that you'll pick no later than 4th overall. Maybe that hypothetical "three spots back" spot becomes the new guaranteed 1st overall pick. I mean, you probably won't see many teams outright gutting themselves like some of the great tank efforts of the past, but I'm not sure the league has completely solved the tanking dilemma.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

9 hours ago, RightWeiner said:

Man you still don't get it...

9 hours ago, WingedWheel91 said:

Looks really nice, lots of potential...dare I say something to be excited about? I just can't understand how you expect to succeed with such a young, exciting group of defencemen. Shouldn't you have atleast a couple 34 year old unproductive veterans in there to protect the confidence of those players? 

Because like, Vegas is like, about to win a cup with this top 6:

Shea Theodore (Age 22), Nate Schmidt (Age 26), Brayden Mcnabb (Age 27), Deryk Engelland (Age 36), Colin Miller (Age 25) and Jon Merril (Age 26).

Hmm... That's weird, no elite players, average age of 27, and top 7 in GAA through the regular season? Impossible.

Can't wait to have Green, Daley, Ericsson, Dekeyser and Kronwall locked in to our dumpster fire of a defence for the next few seasons. That Daley signing was awesome though! Progressive thinking at its finest! I hope Green gets 3 years this summer too, cuz like, more veterans!

 

 

 

[Buppy 1,720]

On 4/16/2018 at 5:07 PM, WingedWheel91 said:

Next year, if we get lucky - we may have: Dahlin/Boqvist, Hronek, and Cholowski all ready to make our team. Maybe they are ready, maybe they aren't... But it's not even a possibility considering we have Ericsson, Kronwall, Dekeyser, Daley and potentially Mike Green (who was actually our best Dman this season) signed to multi-year contracts....

8 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

...It makes no sense. I would have been perfectly content if we signed Daley and moved another veteran in the process, but not to have 6 veterans on the team, 27+, with no room for any of the kids for the next couple years.

6 hours ago, WingedWheel91 said:

... Combined, they also offer very little roster flexibility (NTC, NMC) and cancel any hope for major turnover in the near future.... 

This idea is simply wrong. The vets are not guaranteed anything nor preventing any kids from making the team. We could bring them all back, plus resign Green, plus sign Beauchemin, strap Vladdy to a sled and sign him to a 3 year deal, and if we go to TC and find 6 copies of prime Bobby Orr our defense next year would be 6 copies of prime Bobby Orr.

In the whole of the cap era, the best young defenseman to lose out to a vet would be a toss-up between Ericsson and Quincey. How many Quincey-Ericsson-Kindl-Smith-Lashoff-Dekeyser-Almqvist-Marchenko-Ouellet-Sproul-Jensens will we go through before you start to consider the possibility that the next in line is not necessarily the next big thing, and that the reason they're getting passed over isn't because of vets or contracts or UFA signings, but rather because they just aren't that good?

It's already been said that the Wings defense is a pretty low bar. If a Hicketts/Hronek/Cholowski/potential 2018 pick can't make it over that bar, we should probably temper our excitement for them.

 

 

[RightWeiner 17]

1 hour ago, Buppy said:

This idea is simply wrong. The vets are not guaranteed anything nor preventing any kids from making the team. We could bring them all back, plus resign Green, plus sign Beauchemin, strap Vladdy to a sled and sign him to a 3 year deal, and if we go to TC and find 6 copies of prime Bobby Orr our defense next year would be 6 copies of prime Bobby Orr.

In the whole of the cap era, the best young defenseman to lose out to a vet would be a toss-up between Ericsson and Quincey. How many Quincey-Ericsson-Kindl-Smith-Lashoff-Dekeyser-Almqvist-Marchenko-Ouellet-Sproul-Jensens will we go through before you start to consider the possibility that the next in line is not necessarily the next big thing, and that the reason they're getting passed over isn't because of vets or contracts or UFA signings, but rather because they just aren't that good?

It's already been said that the Wings defense is a pretty low bar. If a Hicketts/Hronek/Cholowski/potential 2018 pick can't make it over that bar, we should probably temper our excitement for them.

 

 

This guy gets it.