Andreas Athanasiou Officially Signed 2 yrs. $3M AAV

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

6 hours ago, kickazz said:

How is it asinine? It's simply comparing the start of 3 players different careers? Dafuq? Do you actually have to sink to this level of talk and call a simple analysis like that "Garbage" to try and weasel out of it?

Comparisons at players certain point in time is literally done all the time. NHL compared Crosby at age 30 to other legends at age 30.

https://www.nhl.com/news/comparing-sidney-crosby-to-legends-at-age-30/c-290634448

Just 10 months ago, Rangers players under 25 were compared to other NHL pros at the start of their careers. 

https://bluelinestation.com/2017/08/29/new-york-rangers-comparing-players-under-25-to-nhl-pros/5/

Mathews compared to McDavid

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/comparing-rookie-seasons-auston-matthews-connor-mcdavid/

I always leave the best for last. Same exact debate I'm trying to have that TSN did. They compared the 2nd year of McDavid to Crosby. 

https://www.tsn.ca/mcdavid-s-sophomore-season-may-top-crosby-as-best-in-recent-memory-1.713789

TSN be so asinine. Ass nine. Is it asinine or ass nine or nine or number9. Or perhaps you're avoiding a debate that you're set up to lose. 

Let me know when you're ready to discuss it. Until then I'll leave you to Jonas to play with; right before I respond to another part of the post seperately. 

What's the point of the comparison? To convince me that AA had decent a 2nd season and therefore "not to turn on AA prematurely"?

You're comparing Franzen to AA. Why? You're comparing Larkin to AA. Why? You're not comparing AA to Nyquist. Why? You're not comparing AA to Tatar. Why? You're not comparing Hudler to AA. Why? I can go on.

What does a players 2nd year tell you about said player?

Sorry for all the questions, just weasel-ing like I normally do

6 hours ago, kickazz said:

Agree with what? I don't think I've agreed with anything. I'm simply responding to the following post. In the most simplest terms. No hidden meaning that leads to an agreement. Just a simple question which I'll repeat below. 

Kindly point out where I said you hate AA? 

Do you think I hate AA?

Edited July 24, 2018 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

CRL, you are putting words in Kickazz' mouth.  Bush league, dude.

When the axe has your back you know you're doing right.

I got one for you dude.

What's full of greece, lightning quick, usually disappointing, and can be found at little ceasar's arena?

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

7 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

When the axe has your back you know you're doing right.

I got one for you dude.

What's full of greece, lightning quick, usually disappointing, and can be found at little ceasar's arena?

Cheli? 2 out of 4.

[kickazz 5,459]

12 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

What's the point of the comparison? To convince me that AA had decent a 2nd season and therefore "not to turn on AA prematurely"?

You're comparing Franzen to AA. Why? You're comparing Larkin to AA. Why? You're not comparing AA to Nyquist. Why? You're not comparing AA to Tatar. Why? You're not comparing Hudler to AA. Why? I can go on.

What does a players 2nd year tell you about said player?

Because Lefty pulled the Franzen trigger and you went off on AA and it was hilarious that he got to your head 

On 7/6/2018 at 12:47 PM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Franzen was much better even after 2010 than AA will probably ever be

Reaching. Premature. 

On 7/6/2018 at 3:53 PM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Take over games?? Franzen took over entire playoff series, one after the other, for multiple consecutive seaons.

Last year AA had only 7 multi-point games total. Only one of which was a game with more than 2 points (3), and only two of which with more than 1 goal (2 for each).

AA is exciting to watch, but he does not by any means take over games. At this point in time he isn't even good enough to hold non-prime Franzen's jock strap

You brought up non-Prime Franzen. A non-prime Franzen would be early on in his career. That's exactly what I wanted to discuss with you. Apparently you think your own point you stated on July 6th is "garbage" and are wondering "what's the point of the comparison". 

On 7/6/2018 at 7:15 PM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

2007-2008 playoffs: 4 multi-point games, 5 games without a point, for a total of 18 points in 16 games, 13 of which were goals.
He also finished with the most game-winning goals of the playoffs.
Absolutely dominant playoff run, even for a superstar caliber player.

2008-2009 playoffs: 6 multi-point games, 7 games without a point, for a total of 23 points in 23 games, 12 of which were goals.
He also finished tied for the most game-winning goals in the playoffs.
Absolutely dominant playoff run, even for a superstar caliber player.

2009-2010 playoffs: 2 multi-point games, 0 games without a point, for a total of 18 points in 12 games, 6 of which were goals.
Absolutely dominant playoff run, even for a superstar caliber player.

2008-2010 totals: 12 multi-point games, 12 games without a point, for a total of 59 points in 51 games, 31 of which were goals

I'll let the numbers speak for themselves. They're better than Datsyuk's during the same time frame.

Before you begin your hateful tirade about Franzen, I'd like to swing back to the original point...

AA has never taken over a road trip, he's never taken over a home series's, he doesn't score multi-point games on a consistent basis, hell he hardly scores at all. Not playing defense to get a breakaway is not "taking over a game". Franzen and AA are hardly comparable at all.

 

Apparently you only want to compare Franzen in his prime to AA in his early career. Hardly a legitimate comparison at all. But when it comes to comparing two people's early career; which makes more sense, again it's "garbage". 

Face it, you're bitching out on a debate that you know you can't win. But you wrote paragraphs upon paragraphs to compare  Franzen's prime with AA's rookie and sophomore year. Lol. 

On 7/7/2018 at 8:59 PM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

That was his best series sure, but he dominated the playoffs 3 years in a row as the stats show.

So AA can take over games with his explosiveness? Really? Why hasn't he done so?  16 goals and 33 pts last year... You know who else got 16 goals and 33 pts last year? Frans Nielsen. And no, I wouldn't call him someone who takes over games either.

Thought ppl would have learned that fact after Darren Helm. Breakaways are great and all, but a lot of the rest of his game is lacking. Which is not surprising, we've been warned about it since his junior days.

187 goals in 602 games is REALLY good for an NHL player.

AA hasn't had much of a chance to see the playoffs yet, and maybe he can kick it on in the playoffs like Franzen could in his heyday, but I seriously doubt it. The only other guy I can remember who could turn it up in the playoffs like Franzen could was Danny Briere. It's what made Briere and Franzen rare/special players.

Athanasiou literally had only 2 game-winning goals last season. If you have stats on game-tying goals please share.

 

First bold - Wonder what Franzen got in his sophomore year. 

Second bold - Reaching, assuming. Doesn't really speak the mantra of "I have high hopes for the kid" bs you're trying to chalk up all of a sudden. 

 

The Franzen trigger made you attack AA on all fronts. Now you're trying to take a soft tone and trying bow out by saying "I have high hopes for the kid" and want to shy about from discussion his first two seasons as a comparable to your boy Franzen. And yes that's exactly why we discuss Franzen because you started comparing Franzen YOURSELF. And you compared the freshman and sophomore year to another players prime. Hardly  a fair comparison at all. And now when I ask you to do an actual fair comparison of both players' 1st/2nd years, you don't want to finish what you started. 

Stick to your guns. 

 

Edited July 24, 2018 by kickazz

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

On 7/24/2018 at 1:50 PM, Jonas Mahonas said:

CRL is a back pedaling specialist.  Owes me $20.00 too.

You can afford to back-pedal when you're already way ahead.

[kickazz 5,459]

24 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

You can afford to back-pedal when you're already way ahead.

That's the dumbest thing I've heard. If you're ahead, then stay ahead. Looking back is for *******. But if  you're into that then by all means. 

It's also a weak coverup for losing an argument. Especially when you have to speak for someone else. 

Edited July 25, 2018 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

6 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Exactly, Kickazz.  These fools need to recognize.

At this point as far as AA is concerned, with the lack of evidence or real data provided by Neo's claims and having to fall back on "Assumptions" as his main supporting points along with the back peddling from CRL added with the lack of continuing an argument he himself started; I would agree with you. 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, kickazz said:

At this point as far as AA is concerned, with the lack of evidence or real data provided by Neo's claims and having to fall back on "Assumptions" as his main supporting points along with the back peddling from CRL added with the lack of continuing an argument he himself started; I would agree with you. 

 

https://exploringyourmind.com/ive-learned-avoid-useless-arguments/

Maybe it’s due to maturity, age, or even resignation, but at some point, everyone realizes that some arguments aren’t worth it. At that point, people prefer to opt for silence and smile, without fully giving in. They understand that there’s no point giving explanations to someone who doesn’t want to understand.

 

“To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.”

― Thomas Paine, The American Crisis

[kickazz 5,459]

21 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

 

https://exploringyourmind.com/ive-learned-avoid-useless-arguments/

Maybe it’s due to maturity, age, or even resignation, but at some point, everyone realizes that some arguments aren’t worth it. At that point, people prefer to opt for silence and smile, without fully giving in. They understand that there’s no point giving explanations to someone who doesn’t want to understand.

 

“To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.”

― Thomas Paine, The American Crisis

Silence? Maturity? Lol. You've been passive-aggressively been involved about AA s*** talk in other threads and just took a jab at Jonas about his post that wasn't even referring to you, and you keep coming back here to post and give snide remarks. Don't give me that bs because I'm the king of doing the same s*** and at the very least I can recognize what I'm doing. There is no maturity and that article certainly doesn't apply to you; nor me nor anyone else on this specific forum. I also find it interesting that you support a guy to lead that does exactly those things. You should practice what you preach. Otherwise you're simply proving yourself to be a hypocrite. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

On 7/21/2018 at 10:57 PM, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

He's lAAzy and he sucks.

Real mature. Real silent. Must be the tenets of passive-aggressiveness these days. 

[Buppy 1,720]

40 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

 

https://exploringyourmind.com/ive-learned-avoid-useless-arguments/

Maybe it’s due to maturity, age, or even resignation, but at some point, everyone realizes that some arguments aren’t worth it. At that point, people prefer to opt for silence and smile, without fully giving in. They understand that there’s no point giving explanations to someone who doesn’t want to understand.

 

“To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.”

― Thomas Paine, The American Crisis

35 minutes ago, kickazz said:

...and that article certainly doesn't apply to you; nor me nor anyone else on this specific forum. ...

This seems like a good spot to jump back into this thread for the first time since page 4. Nothing to add really. Seems pointless. I wish I could talk to Thomas Paine though. My sycophantic devotion to reason is the root of my contempt for humanity. Wonder what he'd have to say about that. I'd guess something stupid, since he was human and all.

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

On 7/24/2018 at 11:31 AM, kickazz said:

Because Lefty pulled the Franzen trigger and you went off on AA and it was hilarious that he got to your head 

Reaching. Premature. 

You brought up non-Prime Franzen. A non-prime Franzen would be early on in his career. That's exactly what I wanted to discuss with you. Apparently you think your own point you stated on July 6th is "garbage" and are wondering "what's the point of the comparison". 

Apparently you only want to compare Franzen in his prime to AA in his early career. Hardly a legitimate comparison at all. But when it comes to comparing two people's early career; which makes more sense, again it's "garbage". 

Face it, you're bitching out on a debate that you know you can't win. But you wrote paragraphs upon paragraphs to compare  Franzen's prime with AA's rookie and sophomore year. Lol. 

First bold - Wonder what Franzen got in his sophomore year. 

Second bold - Reaching, assuming. Doesn't really speak the mantra of "I have high hopes for the kid" bs you're trying to chalk up all of a sudden. 

 

The Franzen trigger made you attack AA on all fronts. Now you're trying to take a soft tone and trying bow out by saying "I have high hopes for the kid" and want to shy about from discussion his first two seasons as a comparable to your boy Franzen. And yes that's exactly why we discuss Franzen because you started comparing Franzen YOURSELF. And you compared the freshman and sophomore year to another players prime. Hardly  a fair comparison at all. And now when I ask you to do an actual fair comparison of both players' 1st/2nd years, you don't want to finish what you started. 

Stick to your guns. 

 

You think AA is going to hit prime Franzen levels? I don't agree. I'm optimistic with AA, but most elite players never hit his prime level.

So your plan is to prove that my comparison dumb yet you're using the same comparison? 4d chess right there

Bitching out?? I'm trying really hard

What did Franzen get in his first year?

"bs you're trying to chalk up all of a sudden" Chalk up? Please elaborate. I have no idea what you mean with this jibberish.

You dodged the question, dodger. Again, do you think I hate AA?

 

5 hours ago, kickazz said:

Silence? Maturity? Lol. You've been passive-aggressively been involved about AA s*** talk in other threads and just took a jab at Jonas about his post that wasn't even referring to you, and you keep coming back here to post and give snide remarks. Don't give me that bs because I'm the king of doing the same s*** and at the very least I can recognize what I'm doing. There is no maturity and that article certainly doesn't apply to you; nor me nor anyone else on this specific forum. I also find it interesting that you support a guy to lead that does exactly those things. You should practice what you preach. Otherwise you're simply proving yourself to be a hypocrite. 

Krsmith is to Brendan Smith as Kickazz is to AA lol

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

7 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Why is AA being compared to Franzen?  Why would anyone want AA to play like Franzen?  Put on 30 lbs, skate 5 mph slower, and be a streaky goal scoring sniper with little defensive prowess.  What I want is for AA to play like Datsyuk.  He seems to handle business in the offensive zone and just needs to get that puck chasing tenacity Datsyuk and Z had.  Dats had one of a kind hands, so no reason to wish for AA to be the pick pocket Dats was.  But I think everyone is just waiting for AA to show the compete level that our good ones (Z, Dats, Feds, Stevie, Larkin) have had. 

Franzen and AA aren't comparable. That's been my stance since the very beginning, but yet it eludes some.

[LeftWinger 4,953]

I just wonder what you mean by saying "most elite players never hit HIS prime level?"

Are you saying that most elite players never hit Franzen's "prime" level?

My goodness, here is Franzen's career stats:

Regular Season

 

Playoffs

 

He's NEVER topped 60 points in his career. MOST Elite players never get below 80-90 (sometimes over 100) points. I am not interested in debating Franzen v. AA, but Franzen, even in his prime, was far, FAR from Elite. I respect all he did for us during his prime as well, I am not knocking him at all. In his BEST goal scoring season and points season (34G 59TTL) here are the leaders in G, A and Points just for that season:

 

In his 2nd highest scoring season 2011-2012 (29G 56TTL) here are the leaders from that year:

 

Again, not debating AA vs. Franzen, two different types of players, but to say most elite players never hit Franzen's "prime" level is nuts. Thank you Johan for the memories and that memorable Cup run, but no way has he, or will he be considered ELITE. Elite players get their number retired (most of the time) and get to the Hall of Fame. Franzen will have none of that. He's never even gotten ANY major award, nor has he ever made an appearance at an All-Star Game, except maybe as a spectator.

Edited January 7, 2021 by LeftWinger

[kliq 3,755]

I don't think anyone would argue that through 82 games Franzen was elite (though in his defense, he couldn't stay healthy enough to show us one way or another.

What made Franzen special is that he better then any Wing I have ever seen in my life time had an ability to absolutely take over a game. When the guy was on, you would think he was a hart candidate. 

[LeftWinger 4,953]

I respect your opinion, but Franzen played with BOTH Datsyuk and Zetterberg in their primes AND the Super-Human Lidstrom  In your opinion Franzen was better than those 3? Plus he played a season with Marian Hossa. Not to mention he played his rookie season with Steve Yzerman and Brendan Shanahan.

I am so sorry you never got to watch any live 1990-2005 Red Wings play. Now, if we are talking Elite players, wow!

Edited July 26, 2018 by LeftWinger

[kliq 3,755]

14 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I respect your opinion, but Franzen played with BOTH Datsyuk and Zetterberg in their primes AND the Super-Human Lidstrom  In your opinion Franzen was better than those 3? Plus he played a season with Marian Hossa. Not to mention he played his rookie season with Steve Yzerman and Brendan Shanahan.

I am so sorry you never got to watch any live 1990-2005 Red Wings play. Now, if we are talking Elite players, wow!

I think you are misunderstanding me.

For the record, I AM NOT saying that Franzen was better then any of those guys. What I said, was that Franzen had an ability to take over games unlike anybody I have seen. That doesnt mean he's a better player. Having a super human game followed by 4 games of mediocrity does not make you a better player. To be fair, I do think Fedorov had that ability as well.

I'm in my mid 30's, 1990-2005 is what I grew up on. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

46 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I just wonder what you mean by saying "most elite players never hit HIS prime level?"

Are you saying that most elite players never hit Franzen's "prime" level?

My goodness, here is Franzen's career stats:

Regular Season

Playoffs

He's NEVER topped 60 points in his career. MOST Elite players never get below 80-90 (sometimes over 100) points. I am not interested in debating Franzen v. AA, but Franzen, even in his prime, was far, FAR from Elite. I respect all he did for us during his prime as well, I am not knocking him at all. In his BEST goal scoring season and points season (34G 59TTL) here are the leaders in G, A and Points just for that season:

In his 2nd highest scoring season 2011-2012 (29G 56TTL) here are the leaders from that year:

Again, not debating AA vs. Franzen, two different types of players, but to say most elite players never hit Franzen's "prime" level is nuts. Thank you Johan for the memories and that memorable Cup run, but no way has he, or will he be considered ELITE. Elite players get their number retired (most of the time) and get to the Hall of Fame. Franzen will have none of that. He's never even gotten ANY major award, nor has he ever made an appearance at an All-Star Game, except maybe as a spectator.

I'm not getting into a another Franzen debate with you in this thread.

AA v. Franzen is a bad a comparison anyway you cut it.

[LeftWinger 4,953]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I'm not getting into a another Franzen debate with you in this thread.

AA v. Franzen is a bad a comparison anyway you cut it.

Absolutely, as is Elite Players vs. "Prime" Franzen.

I don't want a debate either. Have a good one!

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Absolutely, as is Elite Players vs. "Prime" Franzen.

I don't want a debate either. Have a good one!

Have a GREAT one!

[LeftWinger 4,953]

1 hour ago, kliq said:

I don't think anyone would argue that through 82 games Franzen was elite (though in his defense, he couldn't stay healthy enough to show us one way or another.

What made Franzen special is that he better then any Wing I have ever seen in my life time had an ability to absolutely take over a game. When the guy was on, you would think he was a hart candidate. 

Got it! I read it as he was better than any Wing you have ever seen in your lifetime. Now that I look at it and maybe insert my own comma's (not being grammar police ) I now understand what you were pointing out. Not too sure he was better at than Fedorov, but I do get what you are saying and tend to agree.  Maybe he had health issues longer than we realized, because for stretches he did take over games now and then.

[LeftWinger 4,953]

1 minute ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Have a GREAT one!

Let's not bring Gretzky into this debate!

[kliq 3,755]

1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

Got it! I read it as he was better than any Wing you have ever seen in your lifetime. Now that I look at it and maybe insert my own comma's (not being grammar police ) I now understand what you were pointing out. Not too sure he was better at than Fedorov, but I do get what you are saying and tend to agree.  Maybe he had health issues longer than we realized, because for stretches he did take over games now and then.

Ya exactly, my bad if I forgot a comma. Franzen was not even close to the level of the other guys, but for some damn reason when he was hot, he looked like a adult playing with children. Too bad it only lasted a few games.

[kickazz 5,459]

14 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Krsmith is to Brendan Smith as Kickazz is to AA lol

Nah, I think AA should be used as a trading chip. Don't really give a s*** about him. What I do care about though is slaying people who have bias.  

I think joesuffP has me figured out best. So. Why can't you? 

On 7/14/2018 at 9:08 PM, joesuffP said:

Kickass just argues just to argue I don’t think he actually believes what he’s saying

 

15 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You think AA is going to hit prime Franzen levels? I don't agree. I'm optimistic with AA, but most elite players never hit his prime level.

So your plan is to prove that my comparison dumb yet you're using the same comparison? 4d chess right there

Bitching out?? I'm trying really hard

What did Franzen get in his first year?

"bs you're trying to chalk up all of a sudden" Chalk up? Please elaborate. I have no idea what you mean with this jibberish.

 

Discussion won't continue until you're ready to finish what you started about Franzen. 

AA vs. Franzen during sophomore year. We can also visit their 3rd year once AA finishing his 3rd year in 2018/19 season. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by kickazz