2018 Prospect Tournament and Training Camp

[kipwinger 8,521]

8 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

... if you think Mantha is a little slow-footed, you probably haven't been watching the games...

I'm curious, how good do you think Mantha is?  Like, right now?  Not what you think he projects as.

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

I'm curious, how good do you think Mantha is?  Like, right now?  Not what you think he projects as.

I'm not sure how you want me to answer that without any projections... I think he's currently our best winger and one of our best forwards.

I'm curious, do you think Mantha's skating is an issue?

[kipwinger 8,521]

53 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I'm not sure how you want me to answer that without any projections... I think he's currently our best winger and one of our best forwards.

I'm curious, do you think Mantha's skating is an issue?

An issue, no.  But do I think it's an asset?  Also no.  I don't view him as a Blake Wheeler or Rick Nash type (e.g. big guys whose skating is very good).  He reminds me more of Corey Perry or Todd Bertuzzi (e.g. gets around fine for their size). 

That's actually why I think he needs to take Blashill's advice and learn to play like Van Riemsdyk.  I don't think his wheels (although decent for a big guy) are good enough to beat defensemen wide.  I think he's basically another Franzen, which I'm thrilled about, but he'd better learn to score a bunch of different ways (like Johan did) if he's going to maximize his output at the NHL level because a sniper he ain't.

Edited August 11, 2018 by kipwinger

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 hours ago, kipwinger said:

An issue, no.  But do I think it's an asset?  Also no.  I don't view him as a Blake Wheeler or Rick Nash type (e.g. big guys whose skating is very good).  He reminds me more of Corey Perry or Todd Bertuzzi (e.g. gets around fine for their size). 

That's actually why I think he needs to take Blashill's advice and learn to play like Van Riemsdyk.  I don't think his wheels (although decent for a big guy) are good enough to beat defensemen wide.  I think he's basically another Franzen, which I'm thrilled about, but he'd better learn to score a bunch of different ways (like Johan did) if he's going to maximize his output at the NHL level because a sniper he ain't.

You had me hooked till the last 5 word damn you

He's new Franzen. I've been saying it since draft day. However, I need him to go on a playoff series beast mode hot streak now though to prove that.

I see two paths before this kid... we force him to become the power-forward his size tempts us to want from him, or we allow him to be the lil softy finesse sniper he was born to be. Maybe something in between...

I say we let him float around the circles and snipe and just forget he was ever tall, but then also rip his ass apart whenever he's not in the crease.

8 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I'm curious, how good do you think Mantha is?  Like, right now?  Not what you think he projects as.

Top 6 forward

Next

[solarion 118]

A sniper is precisely what Anthony Mantha is.

It'll be interesting to see if he develops into more of a Franzen or a Shanahan type of player, but he definitely has the accuracy to be in the conversation with those guys.

[krsmith17 7,191]

9 hours ago, kipwinger said:

An issue, no.  But do I think it's an asset?  Also no.  I don't view him as a Blake Wheeler or Rick Nash type (e.g. big guys whose skating is very good).  He reminds me more of Corey Perry or Todd Bertuzzi (e.g. gets around fine for their size). 

That's actually why I think he needs to take Blashill's advice and learn to play like Van Riemsdyk.  I don't think his wheels (although decent for a big guy) are good enough to beat defensemen wide.  I think he's basically another Franzen, which I'm thrilled about, but he'd better learn to score a bunch of different ways (like Johan did) if he's going to maximize his output at the NHL level because a sniper he ain't.

So I guess I'll say it again... If you think Mantha is a little "slow-footed", you probably haven't been watching the games. I didn't say Mantha's skating is an "asset", but it definitely isn't a weakness. He's not as fast as Larkin or Athanasiou, but I'd bet on him in a head-to-head against any other player on the team. He's a very good skater for a big man.

It's funny because if you had asked me to name one player I'd compare Mantha to, it would have probably been Blake Wheeler. I'm not sure if he'll ever reach Wheeler's ceiling, but stylistically, they're very similar. A young Todd Bertuzzi may be somewhat accurate as well though (minus the mean streak).

Check out these two scouting reports from the Hockey News...

Mantha

Assets - "Is a natural goal-scoring talent with great size and instincts for putting the biscuit in the basket. For a big winger, he skates very well, too. Displays great hand/eye coordination. Can play either wing position."

Flaws - "Needs to work on his play at the defensive end of the rink, as well as his game-to-game consistency, in order to maximize production at the National Hockey League level. Takes a few too many shifts off."

Wheeler

Assets - "Has tremendous size and reach for the wing position, as well as good wheels for a big guy. Controls the puck effectively in the corners and possesses a good scoring touch. Is at his best when driving through traffic areas."

Flaws - "At times, he stops moving his feet and becomes a little lazy on the ice. Should also use his massive size more frequently so as to become more intimidating to play against. Can go through important scoring slumps."

He already does score a bunch of different ways, it's just that most of his goals are deflections and rebounds in front of the net, because that's the game he's told to play. He has no choice but to "take Blashill's advice", but Blashill should not be trying to turn Mantha into a net front guy. He has too much skill to be limited strictly to the front of the net every time they gain any offensive zone time. Mantha is more than capable of scoring off the rush, skating down the wing and sniping top corner. He's done it several times. 

"A sniper he ain't"? I don't get this comment. Have you seen the guy's shot? You think he has average skating and an average shot. I think the comment I made originally about not watching the games may apply to you. Have you been watching? He's a very good skater and has a very heavy, accurate shot.

Ideally, with the addition of Rasmussen, Blashill will smarten up and start using Mantha where he should be, in the slot or around the right faceoff dot, so he can use his best asset, his shot.

[kipwinger 8,521]

Wait, where did I say he's average at anything? 

I've already said, he's like Franzen.  Good wheels (for a big guy), good shot, good size, good net front.  He's good at all of it.  If he were excellent at all of it he'd be Blake Wheeler.  He isn't.  His best attribute, and one that you consistently fail to mention because it doesn't support your "Mantha is a shooter" narrative, is that he's really good at protecting the puck and making good passes for scoring chances in the offensive zone.  If anything I'd say he's under rated as a PLAYMAKER.  Which is probably the only thing that will set his career apart from Franzen.  He'll score 28-35 goals a season, but his ceiling will depend on how many assists he has. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

20 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Wait, where did I say he's average at anything? 

I've already said, he's like Franzen.  Good wheels (for a big guy), good shot, good size, good net front.  He's good at all of it.  If he were excellent at all of it he'd be Blake Wheeler.  He isn't.  His best attribute, and one that you consistently fail to mention because it doesn't support your "Mantha is a shooter" narrative, is that he's really good at protecting the puck and making good passes for scoring chances in the offensive zone.  If anything I'd say he's under rated as a PLAYMAKER.  Which is probably the only thing that will set his career apart from Franzen.  He'll score 28-35 goals a season, but his ceiling will depend on how many assists he has. 

No, you didn't say it directly, but saying he "gets around fine for his size" and "a sniper he's not", kind of makes it seem like you think he's "average" in those areas...

I think he has explosive speed, never mind "for a big guy". I also think he has an elite level shot, aka a "sniper". That was his game in Val d'Or. That was his game in Grand Rapids (under Blashill). But that hasn't been his game in Detroit (yet). Not because he's not capable of it (we've seen him do it), but because he's asked to play a different style of game. Just because he's big, he's expected to crash the crease and cause havoc in front of the net. I think he'd be much better suited playing a finesse game, holding onto the puck, making plays and "sniping" goals. He'll still score some of those dirty goals, but I'd much rather see him play on the outside utilizing his shot.

"If he were excellent at all of it he'd be Blake Wheeler. He isn't." You really don't think Mantha is comparable to Wheeler? Stylistically they're very similar and even stats early in their careers, they were very similar. Mantha was even slightly better early on.

Mantha's first full season (age 22) - 60-17-19-36 (0.28 goals per game / 0.6 points per game).

Wheeler's first season (age 22) - 81-21-24-45 (0.26 goals per game / 0.56 points per game).

Mantha's second season (age 23) - 80-24-24-48 (0.3 goals per game / 0.6 points per game).

Wheeler's second season (age 23) - 82-18-20-38 (0.22 goals per game / 0.46 points per game).

Again, I'm not sure if Mantha will ever hit that point per game ceiling that Wheeler has, but the potential is definitely there.

I agree that Mantha is a very underrated passer, but that doesn't in any way negate my "Mantha is a shooter narrative"... If anything that supports my Mantha should be used on the left faceoff dot narrative. How much passing / playmaking is he able to do when he's stationed in front of the net? Minimal. He's just there to direct / bang in loose pucks. He's very good at it, but would have more of an impact shooting / making plays in my opinion.

[solarion 118]

Mantha has an interesting skill set where he's big, but like mule is capable of playing a finesse game. Now that he's bulked up though and taking boxing lessons, I'd like to see him channel more Brendan Shanahan and less Johan Franzen or Tomas Holmstrom. Perhaps when Rasmussen sticks with the team it'll free up Mantha to be used as more of a power forward/sniper role, where I think he's ideally suited.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

I agree more with KrSmith's evaluation of Mantha than I do Kips.

Truly disagree that his passing and skating are underrated. He's average at both.

Mantha is a shooter in a power-forwards body. I really think Franzen is a great comparison, and really think Wheeler is a terrible one.

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I agree more with KrSmith's evaluation of Mantha than I do Kips.

Truly disagree that his passing and skating are underrated. He's average at both.

Mantha is a shooter in a power-forwards body. I really think Franzen is a great comparison, and really think Wheeler is a terrible one.

I agree with the Franzen comparison, but I do think Mantha's much faster than the Mule ever was. See there you go, underrating his speed...

I'm curious, what makes you think the Wheeler comparison is "terrible"? I see a lot of similarities in their game. I don't follow any team as closely as the Wings, but my distant 2nd/3rd favorite teams have always been Edmonton and Winnipeg. I've been a big fan of Wheeler ever since the relocation from Atlanta, and I've watched a lot of Jets games. Even if you've never watched either Mantha or Wheeler play a single game, you'd get the impression that they were very similar style players just by reading their scouting reports and stat lines. What makes you think they're such different players?

[Buppy 1,720]

7 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I agree more with KrSmith's evaluation of Mantha than I do Kips.

Truly disagree that his passing and skating are underrated. He's average at both.

Mantha is a shooter in a power-forwards body. I really think Franzen is a great comparison, and really think Wheeler is a terrible one.

He's more of a big Tatar, who doesn't use his size very much.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I agree with the Franzen comparison, but I do think Mantha's much faster than the Mule ever was. See there you go, underrating his speed...

I'm curious, what makes you think the Wheeler comparison is "terrible"? I see a lot of similarities in their game. I don't follow any team as closely as the Wings, but my distant 2nd/3rd favorite teams have always been Edmonton and Winnipeg. I've been a big fan of Wheeler ever since the relocation from Atlanta, and I've watched a lot of Jets games. Even if you've never watched either Mantha or Wheeler play a single game, you'd get the impression that they were very similar style players just by reading their scouting reports and stat lines. What makes you think they're such different players?

I'll agree he's faster than Franzen, just not fast enough to write home about.

Wheeler is like compete level x1000. Talk about a well-rounded player, he is it. Mantha and Wheeler share size and shooting ability, but that's about it.

I see Mantha as more of the finesse player Franzen was. Wheeler actually plays like an aggressive power-forward.

5 minutes ago, Buppy said:

He's more of a big Tatar, who doesn't use his size very much.

I do not disagree

[krsmith17 7,191]

52 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I'll agree he's faster than Franzen, just not fast enough to write home about.

Wheeler is like compete level x1000. Talk about a well-rounded player, he is it. Mantha and Wheeler share size and shooting ability, but that's about it.

I see Mantha as more of the finesse player Franzen was. Wheeler actually plays like an aggressive power-forward.

I do not disagree

The whole Mantha's speed debate came from me saying that he's not "slow-footed". I don't think he has elite speed by any stretch, but I'd say it's above average for sure, certainly not a hindrance.

He does need to work on his compete level for full games / stretches of games, but he's acknowledged this, and I think he'll get there. We'll see. I'm not sure if he'll ever get to the level of Wheeler, but I don't think it's out of the question either. I do think he'll be better than Franzen, and that's coming from a huge Johan fan.

The Tatar comparison is the worst yet. I don't see a single similarity in their games other than being left handed and drafted by the Red Wings. Tatar always tries to do too much, gets the puck in the slot and has to make one extra move before shooting. Mantha keeps things simple, gets the puck in the slot and it's on net immediately. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

14 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

The whole Mantha's speed debate came from me saying that he's not "slow-footed". I don't think he has elite speed by any stretch, but I'd say it's above average for sure, certainly not a hindrance.

He does need to work on his compete level for full games / stretches of games, but he's acknowledged this, and I think he'll get there. We'll see. I'm not sure if he'll ever get to the level of Wheeler, but I don't think it's out of the question either. I do think he'll be better than Franzen, and that's coming from a huge Johan fan.

The Tatar comparison is the worst yet. I don't see a single similarity in their games other than being left handed and drafted by the Red Wings. Tatar always tries to do too much, gets the puck in the slot and has to make one extra move before shooting. Mantha keeps things simple, gets the puck in the slot and it's on net immediately. 

They're both shooters and are pretty average at everything else.

Seems like Blash is trying to make Mantha into more of a net front guy, but I hope that strategy disappears once Ras joins the team. Not that he's bad at it, but it's like fitting square pegs into round holes IMO. Mantha should be an outside slot shooter like Nyquist and Tatar were/are. Wheeler is not a Nyquist/Tatar/Mantha type IMO

Edited August 13, 2018 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[joesuffP 1,746]

Yes we need more perimeter players. Guys who score 30+ in the NHL don’t play on the perimeter

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, joesuffP said:

Yes we need more perimeter players. Guys who score 30+ in the NHL don’t play on the perimeter

I take it you agree with Blashhill's approach on Mantha then. If he can make Mantha a legit powerforward I'm all for it, I just don't think it's his natural play style.

[joesuffP 1,746]

Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I take it you agree with Blashhill's approach on Mantha then. If he can make Mantha a legit powerforward I'm all for it, I just don't think it's his natural play style.

I think he’ll have the easiest time scoring goals hovering around the crease and being that immovable object. That’s how he gets engaged and where he’s had consistent success. He has a great shot but he’s far from an elite sniper where he can just set up in the circles. He’ll find that balance because I believe he can be a really good possession player too. 

Blashill isn’t forbidding Mantha from leaving the front of the net. He’s free to play his game until he floats around looking for a pass. Because he has no impact on the game when he does this

Check out his goals scored on youtube the last two years

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 minutes ago, joesuffP said:

I think he’ll have the easiest time scoring goals hovering around the crease and being that immovable object. That’s how he gets engaged and where he’s had consistent success. He has a great shot but he’s far from an elite sniper where he can just set up in the circles. He’ll find that balance because I believe he can be a really good possession player too. 

Blashill isn’t forbidding Mantha from leaving the front of the net. He’s free to play his game until he floats around looking for a pass. Because he has no impact on the game when he does this

Check out his goals scored on youtube the last two years

I don't disagree, Blash has used him as the net front guy and Mantha has been successful at it. However, that wasn't really his play style until joining the Red Wings.

Going forward, if he molds well into a net front guy I'll be happy. If Ras steals that role and he hovers around the top of the circle I'll probably be happy too.

[joesuffP 1,746]

I would just be worried up a guy that’s suddenly stopped doing something where he scored 80 percent of his goals

[Wheelchairsuperhero 1,453]

2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I don't disagree, Blash has used him as the net front guy and Mantha has been successful at it. However, that wasn't really his play style until joining the Red Wings.

Going forward, if he molds well into a net front guy I'll be happy. If Ras steals that role and he hovers around the top of the circle I'll probably be happy too.

I'm with you, I don't think Mantha's skillset has been fully utilized up until this point. He's been largely playing a role he wasn't playing before coming to the NHL and I feel like because of it a lot of people are really underestimating his ability to be a sniper. I really feel like Rasmussen is more suited to being a net front guy, that's his game. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, joesuffP said:

I would just be worried up a guy that’s suddenly stopped doing something where he scored 80 percent of his goals

Sure, I see you're point. But to be fair it's much easier to score being the net front guy. It's why Abdelkader ended up with the biggest PENIS on the team (please refer to the interesting stat thread).

 

[Buppy 1,720]

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

The Tatar comparison is the worst yet. I don't see a single similarity in their games other than being left handed and drafted by the Red Wings. Tatar always tries to do too much, gets the puck in the slot and has to make one extra move before shooting. Mantha keeps things simple, gets the puck in the slot and it's on net immediately. 

Could say the same about Franzen. Not a single similarity between them other than both are left shots and tall. Franzen was a converted center who played a strong two-way game, much better with the puck especially in traffic, more physical, better along the boards, significantly more productive, but a worse skater.

Aside from being big, and so playing net front on the PP, he's very similar to Tatar. Both offensively oriented, shoot-first finesse players. Good but not great speed. Wide variety of shooting abilities. High corsi% and shot generation. Good in transition. Neither is physical. Mantha is stronger on the boards/corners, but I'd say Tatar is better with the puck. Mantha turns the puck over much more frequently, most likely the result of poor decision-making and (ironically) trying to do too much.

This video does not support your Tatar comments:

3 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Seems like Blash is trying to make Mantha into more of a net front guy, but I hope that strategy disappears once Ras joins the team...

Not trying to make anyone into anything. Mantha plays net front on the PP because otherwise we'd have to play Abby the full two minutes every time. It's a reaction to a weakness on the roster. (Makes it all the more sad that everyone went berserk when we drafted Ras.) At even strength, there's no such thing as a net front guy. At least not without a Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Lidstrom combo to give a Holmstrom that luxury. At ES Mantha plays like every other scorer: react to the play, try to find open spots in high-percentage areas, support the puck when needed, look for deflections/rebounds/loose pucks when someone else takes the shot.

Even with Ras though, Mantha should still play net front on the other PP unit. He's better than Abby, and with 9 PP goals last year I don't think you can argue that it's hurting him. Nyquist, Vanek, Larkin, AA, Nielsen, Zadina, Zetterberg, Frk...all even less suited to a net front role, but as capable as Mantha filling a shooting role IMO. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, Buppy said:

Could say the same about Franzen. Not a single similarity between them other than both are left shots and tall. Franzen was a converted center who played a strong two-way game, much better with the puck especially in traffic, more physical, better along the boards, significantly more productive, but a worse skater.

Aside from being big, and so playing net front on the PP, he's very similar to Tatar. Both offensively oriented, shoot-first finesse players. Good but not great speed. Wide variety of shooting abilities. High corsi% and shot generation. Good in transition. Neither is physical. Mantha is stronger on the boards/corners, but I'd say Tatar is better with the puck. Mantha turns the puck over much more frequently, most likely the result of poor decision-making and (ironically) trying to do too much.

This video does not support your Tatar comments:

Not trying to make anyone into anything. Mantha plays net front on the PP because otherwise we'd have to play Abby the full two minutes every time. It's a reaction to a weakness on the roster. (Makes it all the more sad that everyone went berserk when we drafted Ras.) At even strength, there's no such thing as a net front guy. At least not without a Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Lidstrom combo to give a Holmstrom that luxury. At ES Mantha plays like every other scorer: react to the play, try to find open spots in high-percentage areas, support the puck when needed, look for deflections/rebounds/loose pucks when someone else takes the shot.

Even with Ras though, Mantha should still play net front on the other PP unit. He's better than Abby, and with 9 PP goals last year I don't think you can argue that it's hurting him. Nyquist, Vanek, Larkin, AA, Nielsen, Zadina, Zetterberg, Frk...all even less suited to a net front role, but as capable as Mantha filling a shooting role IMO. 

Better yet, put Ras and Mantha in front of the net on the SAME pp unit.

[kipwinger 8,521]

Oh Christ, this is going to turn into another Jurco/Smith situation isn't it.  If a guy doesn't perform exactly as we imagined he would then he's been "ruined" by the coach.  Mantha was top 50 among all forwards in powerplay goals and that's considered a bad thing?  9 of his 24 goals came on the powerplay.  His 15 even strength goals (where he's not a "net front" presence) would have tied him for the top 100.  Hell, his even strength goal scoring isn't even the best on the team (Nyquist and AA).  If anything, moving him to net front on the pp made him a more productive goal scorer, not the other way around. 

Mantha can't play like he did in juniors because it wouldn't work.  He dominated a bunch of kids because he was more physically developed.  He won't be able to blow by NHL level defensemen and beat NHL goalies clean off the rush.  He also probably won't score much as a shooter on the PP either because his lateral quickness isn't great.  So Blashill makes a tweak to his game to give him more success (which works) and people *****.  He had a 900% improvement on his PP goalscoring over the year before and Blashill is misusing him?  Jesus.