2018 Prospect Tournament and Training Camp

[krsmith17 7,191]

13 hours ago, Buppy said:

Could say the same about Franzen. Not a single similarity between them other than both are left shots and tall. Franzen was a converted center who played a strong two-way game, much better with the puck especially in traffic, more physical, better along the boards, significantly more productive, but a worse skater.

Aside from being big, and so playing net front on the PP, he's very similar to Tatar. Both offensively oriented, shoot-first finesse players. Good but not great speed. Wide variety of shooting abilities. High corsi% and shot generation. Good in transition. Neither is physical. Mantha is stronger on the boards/corners, but I'd say Tatar is better with the puck. Mantha turns the puck over much more frequently, most likely the result of poor decision-making and (ironically) trying to do too much.

This video does not support your Tatar comments:

Not trying to make anyone into anything. Mantha plays net front on the PP because otherwise we'd have to play Abby the full two minutes every time. It's a reaction to a weakness on the roster. (Makes it all the more sad that everyone went berserk when we drafted Ras.) At even strength, there's no such thing as a net front guy. At least not without a Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Lidstrom combo to give a Holmstrom that luxury. At ES Mantha plays like every other scorer: react to the play, try to find open spots in high-percentage areas, support the puck when needed, look for deflections/rebounds/loose pucks when someone else takes the shot.

Even with Ras though, Mantha should still play net front on the other PP unit. He's better than Abby, and with 9 PP goals last year I don't think you can argue that it's hurting him. Nyquist, Vanek, Larkin, AA, Nielsen, Zadina, Zetterberg, Frk...all even less suited to a net front role, but as capable as Mantha filling a shooting role IMO. 

There are many more similarities to Franzen than Tatar in my opinion. Of course you won't agree, so agree to disagree I guess.

Yeah, Franzen was "significantly more productive" when he was in his 4th full season at the age of 29 than Mantha was in his 2nd full season at the age of 23. You got me there... He may have even been more physically developed as well...

So you found a highlight reel of Tatar that doesn't "highlight" his turnovers? You're on a role... I assume most of us here watch most Red Wings games, and if you do watch the games and don't think Tatar tries to do too much (makes three moves when he only needed to make one), I don't know what to say...

I don't think Mantha playing net front is negatively impacting him as a player, I think it's more so negatively impacting the team. Throw any NHL player in front of the net and they're going to score goals. Playing the teams most skilled winger, and arguably best shooter in front of the net is a waste of talent in my opinion. I think Bertuzzi would be a good net front guy (he played it a bit in Grand Rapids). Play Mantha up high, and Bertuzzi in front of the net and I think it's a net gain (pun intended) for the team...

12 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Oh Christ, this is going to turn into another Jurco/Smith situation isn't it.  If a guy doesn't perform exactly as we imagined he would then he's been "ruined" by the coach.  Mantha was top 50 among all forwards in powerplay goals and that's considered a bad thing?  9 of his 24 goals came on the powerplay.  His 15 even strength goals (where he's not a "net front" presence) would have tied him for the top 100.  Hell, his even strength goal scoring isn't even the best on the team (Nyquist and AA).  If anything, moving him to net front on the pp made him a more productive goal scorer, not the other way around. 

Mantha can't play like he did in juniors because it wouldn't work.  He dominated a bunch of kids because he was more physically developed.  He won't be able to blow by NHL level defensemen and beat NHL goalies clean off the rush.  He also probably won't score much as a shooter on the PP either because his lateral quickness isn't great.  So Blashill makes a tweak to his game to give him more success (which works) and people *****.  He had a 900% improvement on his PP goalscoring over the year before and Blashill is misusing him?  Jesus. 

Who mentioned anything about the coach "ruining" a player? I'm not arguing that Mantha would score more playing up high on the power-play. He probably wouldn't. I'm arguing that a player like Bertuzzi could probably score just as many in front of the net, and Mantha could be used in the Nyquist spot and utilize his shot / playmaking ability up high. Like I said above, I just think it's a waste of talent to stick your most skilled winger in front of the net just because "he's big". Mantha's best attribute is his shot. Let him use it.

Any player would have a massive upswing in power-play goals being thrown in front of the net. If Abdelkader can score 8 PPG's in a season, I'm sure Bertuzzi or whoever else can score around that number as well.

Regarding the bold... He's done this quite a few times in his young career. I'm not sure why you think he can't continue to going forward...

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

There are many more similarities to Franzen than Tatar in my opinion. Of course you won't agree, so agree to disagree I guess.

Yeah, Franzen was "significantly more productive" when he was in his 4th full season at the age of 29 than Mantha was in his 2nd full season at the age of 23. You got me there... He may have even been more physically developed as well...

So you found a highlight reel of Tatar that doesn't "highlight" his turnovers? You're on a role... I assume most of us here watch most Red Wings games, and if you do watch the games and don't think Tatar tries to do too much (makes three moves when he only needed to make one), I don't know what to say...

I don't think Mantha playing net front is negatively impacting him as a player, I think it's more so negatively impacting the team. Throw any NHL player in front of the net and they're going to score goals. Playing the teams most skilled winger, and arguably best shooter in front of the net is a waste of talent in my opinion. I think Bertuzzi would be a good net front guy (he played it a bit in Grand Rapids). Play Mantha up high, and Bertuzzi in front of the net and I think it's a net gain (pun intended) for the team...

Who mentioned anything about the coach "ruining" a player? I'm not arguing that Mantha would score more playing up high on the power-play. He probably wouldn't. I'm arguing that a player like Bertuzzi could probably score just as many in front of the net, and Mantha could be used in the Nyquist spot and utilize his shot / playmaking ability up high. Like I said above, I just think it's a waste of talent to stick your most skilled winger in front of the net just because "he's big". Mantha's best attribute is his shot. Let him use it.

Any player would have a massive upswing in power-play goals being thrown in front of the net. If Abdelkader can score 8 PPG's in a season, I'm sure Bertuzzi or whoever else can score around that number as well.

Regarding the bold... He's done this quite a few times in his young career. I'm not sure why you think he can't continue to going forward...

I like Mantha the way he's being used. At this rate he can be a 30 goal scorer. He's good at using his stick in the lane in front of net. It's also helped him become a bit more aggressive and fight battles that he was otherwise avoiding at times. When Ras comes in, Mantha's usage may change but who knows; it seems like he's comfortable in his current usage. 

I also think that Blashil knew Mantha well enough to know what would work for him in the NHL level. Maybe that's why he's put Mantha into a role he has. Maybe it's transition period until he got better used to how NHL defenders work. Often times these so called snipers in juniors come into the big leagues and all of a sudden their sniping isn't as good anymore (Pulkinnen). A slow transition into more of a traditional "Winger role" could be nice this season but if that fails at least he's learned a role he can fall back into. 

Edited August 14, 2018 by kickazz

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

15 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Oh Christ, this is going to turn into another Jurco/Smith situation isn't it.  If a guy doesn't perform exactly as we imagined he would then he's been "ruined" by the coach.  Mantha was top 50 among all forwards in powerplay goals and that's considered a bad thing?  9 of his 24 goals came on the powerplay.  His 15 even strength goals (where he's not a "net front" presence) would have tied him for the top 100.  Hell, his even strength goal scoring isn't even the best on the team (Nyquist and AA).  If anything, moving him to net front on the pp made him a more productive goal scorer, not the other way around. 

Mantha can't play like he did in juniors because it wouldn't work.  He dominated a bunch of kids because he was more physically developed.  He won't be able to blow by NHL level defensemen and beat NHL goalies clean off the rush.  He also probably won't score much as a shooter on the PP either because his lateral quickness isn't great.  So Blashill makes a tweak to his game to give him more success (which works) and people *****.  He had a 900% improvement on his PP goalscoring over the year before and Blashill is misusing him?  Jesus. 

You're insinuating a lot here. I don't recall anyone saying he's being ruined. In fact, I don't think anyone called his deployment misuse either lol. I explicitly stated I would literally be happy whether he continues to be deployed in front of the net or not. I don't feel strongly either way... just that net front wasn't his play style in juniors...

I think everyone agrees playing in front of the net made him more productive. Check out his PENIS size (interesting stat thread), one of the biggest on the team for that very reason. Christ. Jesus. s***.

[krsmith17 7,191]

39 minutes ago, kickazz said:

I like Mantha the way he's being used. At this rate he can be a 30 goal scorer. He's good at using his stick in the lane in front of net. It's also helped him become a bit more aggressive and fight battles that he was otherwise avoiding at times. When Ras comes in, Mantha's usage may change but who knows; it seems like he's comfortable in his current usage. 

I also think that Blashil knew Mantha well enough to know what would work for him in the NHL level. Maybe that's why he's put Mantha into a role he has. Maybe it's transition period until he got better used to how NHL defenders work. Often times these so called snipers in juniors come into the big leagues and all of a sudden their sniping isn't as good anymore (Pulkinnen). A slow transition into more of a traditional "Winger role" could be nice this season but if that fails at least he's learned a role he can fall back into. 

I think Mantha will be a 30 goal scorer regardless how he's utilized on the power-play. Like I said, I don't think playing him as a net front is negatively impacting his scoring rate, I just think he'd be better utilized as a sniper, since that's one thing the team is sorely lacking.

Blashill also knew him well enough to play him on the right point in Grand Rapids, and he excelled there. I get the point you're trying to make about Pulkkinen, but there's a big difference in a player that can do everything well and has an elite level shot and a player that has limited skill aside from an elite level shot. The reason Pulkkinen is not in the NHL has nothing to do with whether or not he is a sniper, it's that he can't do anything else well enough to stick in the NHL.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

18 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Oh Christ, this is going to turn into another Jurco/Smith situation isn't it.  If a guy doesn't perform exactly as we imagined he would then he's been "ruined" by the coach.  Mantha was top 50 among all forwards in powerplay goals and that's considered a bad thing?  9 of his 24 goals came on the powerplay.  His 15 even strength goals (where he's not a "net front" presence) would have tied him for the top 100.  Hell, his even strength goal scoring isn't even the best on the team (Nyquist and AA).  If anything, moving him to net front on the pp made him a more productive goal scorer, not the other way around. 

Mantha can't play like he did in juniors because it wouldn't work.  He dominated a bunch of kids because he was more physically developed.  He won't be able to blow by NHL level defensemen and beat NHL goalies clean off the rush.  He also probably won't score much as a shooter on the PP either because his lateral quickness isn't great.  So Blashill makes a tweak to his game to give him more success (which works) and people *****.  He had a 900% improvement on his PP goalscoring over the year before and Blashill is misusing him? Jesus.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

BTW...

Tri-Cities named Rasmussen C again for this coming year. Maybe they're expecting him back? Probably just a formality just in case thou

[kipwinger 8,520]

8 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You're insinuating a lot here. I don't recall anyone saying he's being ruined. In fact, I don't think anyone called his deployment misuse either lol. I explicitly stated I would literally be happy whether he continues to be deployed in front of the net or not. I don't feel strongly either way... just that net front wasn't his play style in juniors...

I think everyone agrees playing in front of the net made him more productive. Check out his PENIS size (interesting stat thread), one of the biggest on the team for that very reason. Christ. Jesus. s***.

You stated you'd be happy if it worked AFTER  you said that you wanted it Blashill to stop doing it once Rasmussen was on the team.  Which is it?  If Mantha is successful doing it (as you've said) and you're happy he's successful doing it (as you've said) then why would you want Blashill to stop doing it?

On 8/13/2018 at 1:39 PM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Sure, I see you're point. But to be fair it's much easier to score being the net front guy. It's why Abdelkader ended up with the biggest PENIS on the team (please refer to the interesting stat thread).

 

It's not easier to score around the net than it is to score from the perimeter.  That's why there's so few Holmstroms and so many Hudlers, Tatars, and Nyquists. 

Edited August 14, 2018 by kipwinger

[joesuffP 1,746]

This is the official list of players that were ruined by coaching according to LGW :

Brendan Smith

Thomas Jurco

Petr Mrazek

Andreas Anthansiou ?

Laying the foundation for Mantha when he never hits that 50 goal season mark

[Buppy 1,720]

17 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

There are many more similarities to Franzen than Tatar in my opinion. Of course you won't agree, so agree to disagree I guess.

Yeah, Franzen was "significantly more productive" when he was in his 4th full season at the age of 29 than Mantha was in his 2nd full season at the age of 23. You got me there... He may have even been more physically developed as well...

So you found a highlight reel of Tatar that doesn't "highlight" his turnovers? You're on a role... I assume most of us here watch most Red Wings games, and if you do watch the games and don't think Tatar tries to do too much (makes three moves when he only needed to make one), I don't know what to say...

That's the thing, you can argue just about any player being similar to/different from just about any other player depending on what criteria you choose to emphasize, how specific you want to be, whether you're talking purely style or taking skill level into account, and how much disparity in skill level constitutes a stylistic difference. 

When I said Tatar was a better comparison, I was thinking more in terms of their complete game. You only want to consider offense. You say Mantha is a sniper, and his best asset is his shot, but the one player in the league you think is most comparable is Wheeler, who isn't a sniper, has developed into more of a playmaker since his breakout, is also a complete two-way player, and his best asset is that he doesn't have a singular best asset, not to mention he's far better than Mantha. Yet all of that is somehow less of a "style" difference than your belief that Tatar sometimes makes an extra move.

I'm not going to pretend I can remember enough details of enough shifts to say Tatar "tries to do too much", and I'm not going to pretend you can either. I'm sure you'll just argue some nonsense like it's so obvious that you don't need to remember. Since I'm not going to go over hours of video to try to compile the stats, and neither are you, instead I'll just argue that it doesn't matter. Shot metrics, both team and individual, are similar. As are actual production rates. Tatar has a much lower giveaway rate. So even if you're right, either it doesn't have any impact, Mantha is doing something just as detrimental, or Tatar is doing something else better to offset it.

You're acting like being compared to Tatar is some kind of insult. 

17 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't think Mantha playing net front is negatively impacting him as a player, I think it's more so negatively impacting the team. Throw any NHL player in front of the net and they're going to score goals. Playing the teams most skilled winger, and arguably best shooter in front of the net is a waste of talent in my opinion. I think Bertuzzi would be a good net front guy (he played it a bit in Grand Rapids). Play Mantha up high, and Bertuzzi in front of the net and I think it's a net gain (pun intended) for the team.

14 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I think Mantha will be a 30 goal scorer regardless how he's utilized on the power-play. Like I said, I don't think playing him as a net front is negatively impacting his scoring rate, I just think he'd be better utilized as a sniper, since that's one thing the team is sorely lacking.

Really? Nyquist, Vanek, Larkin, AA, Nielsen, Zetterberg, Zadina as potential shooters/playmakers. Potential net-front players are Abby and two kids who have never been tried there in the NHL? Begs re-asking the question: Just how good do you really think Mantha is? Because the things you're saying don't really add up. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

8 hours ago, joesuffP said:

This is the official list of players that were ruined by coaching according to LGW :

Brendan Smith

Thomas Jurco

Petr Mrazek

Andreas Anthansiou ?

Laying the foundation for Mantha when he never hits that 50 goal season mark

First of all, again, not a single person has said anything about anyone "ruining" Mantha. Secondly, no one is expecting Mantha to come close to "50 goal season mark"...

3 hours ago, Buppy said:

You say Mantha is a sniper, and his best asset is his shot, but the one player in the league you think is most comparable is Wheeler, who isn't a sniper, has developed into more of a playmaker since his breakout, is also a complete two-way player, and his best asset is that he doesn't have a singular best asset, not to mention he's far better than Mantha. Yet all of that is somehow less of a "style" difference than your belief that Tatar sometimes makes an extra move.

Wheeler and Mantha are both big guys that can skate really well, protect the puck, have good hands and a quick release. The thing is, I'm comparing Mantha to what Wheeler was early in his career, and what I think Mantha could become, not a direct comparison to what the players are now. Of course Wheeler is far better than Mantha now, but do you think Mantha tops out as a 40-50 point player? Did you miss the point I made about how their stats were similar early in their respective careers? (Mantha being slightly better). Wheeler also scores in a variety of different ways. A lot of his goals come within two feet of the crease, much like Mantha, but he also scores quite a few out high, and some even from the point. He's used as a net front, similarly to Mantha, but the difference is Winnipeg actually have a ton of legit snipers on their team. He's also been used out high on the power-play in the past, and had great success.

3 hours ago, Buppy said:

You're acting like being compared to Tatar is some kind of insult. 

I don't think being compared to Tatar is an insult at all. I just don't see any similarities in their games, other than having a good shot...

3 hours ago, Buppy said:

Really? Nyquist, Vanek, Larkin, AA, Nielsen, Zetterberg, Zadina as potential shooters/playmakers. Potential net-front players are Abby and two kids who have never been tried there in the NHL? Begs re-asking the question: Just how good do you really think Mantha is? Because the things you're saying don't really add up. 

"Abby and two kids who have never been tried there in the NHL"... So Nyquist, Vanek, three kids who have never been tried there in the NHL, and two older players (one that might not even play this season) that are more of setup guys than true snipers.

This season on the power-play, I'd go with Rasmussen and Abdelkader / Bertuzzi as net front, and Vanek, Nyquist, Mantha, Athanasiou / Zadina / Frk as the triggermen. If you disagree with that, that's fine.

Again, this isn't about Mantha. He's going to score goals regardless where he is on the ice. I just think it would be in the team's best interest to put players in position that best utilizes their strengths. Put your best shooters in position to shoot. In my opinion, Mantha is one of the best shooters on the team.

How good do I think Mantha is? I already answered that, but once again, I think he's our best winger, and best pure goal scorer.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

15 hours ago, kipwinger said:

You stated you'd be happy if it worked AFTER  you said that you wanted it Blashill to stop doing it once Rasmussen was on the team.  Which is it?  If Mantha is successful doing it (as you've said) and you're happy he's successful doing it (as you've said) then why would you want Blashill to stop doing it?

It's not easier to score around the net than it is to score from the perimeter.  That's why there's so few Holmstroms and so many Hudlers, Tatars, and Nyquists. 

Lol you're doubling-down on misrepresenting my argument. Fantastic.

As I've stated numerous times now, I think his natural playstyle coming up through juniors was NOT net-front. Because of that, yes, I would be happy to see Ras take that net-front job for from him so he can go back to playing on the outside more. I still hold the belief he can be a good top-circle shooter if we need him to be. Do I really care if this happens or not? No. Why? Because Mantha has proven he's realy good at the net-front front job. I'll be happy either way. Does that make sense to you? I don't wanna have to explain again.

Now that that's clear, let's bring it back around. Where did I say Mantha is being ruined? Where did say Blashill is misusing Mantha? You're exaggerating and misrepresenting the talking points of others. I'd still love to discuss Mantha's usage if you're done manufacturing your own outrage though.

Edited August 15, 2018 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

15 hours ago, kipwinger said:

You stated you'd be happy if it worked AFTER  you said that you wanted it Blashill to stop doing it once Rasmussen was on the team.  Which is it?  If Mantha is successful doing it (as you've said) and you're happy he's successful doing it (as you've said) then why would you want Blashill to stop doing it?

It's not easier to score around the net than it is to score from the perimeter.  That's why there's so few Holmstroms and so many Hudlers, Tatars, and Nyquists. 

It literally is. Shooting percentage goes up the closer you get to the net.

10 hours ago, joesuffP said:

This is the official list of players that were ruined by coaching according to LGW :

Brendan Smith

Thomas Jurco

Petr Mrazek

Andreas Anthansiou ?

Laying the foundation for Mantha when he never hits that 50 goal season mark

I assume you're using the old sarcasm. Those first 3 players just suck. Way too soon to put AA or Mantha on a list of "ruined" players.

[joesuffP 1,746]

48 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

It literally is. Shooting percentage goes up the closer you get to the net.

I assume you're using the old sarcasm. Those first 3 players just suck. Way too soon to put AA or Mantha on a list of "ruined" players.

Just trying to stir up s*** you know. I think it’s just a case of when fans are a fan of a player and they don’t turn out to be all that. I also get a little annoyed people think Blashill is one of the worst coaches in the league. Same people thought Baba was way overrated. I think blash has done a fine job. Made some mistakes as he is very inexperienced but has improved each year (maybe not with wins but I see improvement)

[kickazz 5,459]

15 minutes ago, joesuffP said:

Just trying to stir up s*** you know. I think it’s just a case of when fans are a fan of a player and they don’t turn out to be all that. I also get a little annoyed people think Blashill is one of the worst coaches in the league. Same people thought Baba was way overrated. I think blash has done a fine job. Made some mistakes as he is very inexperienced but has improved each year (maybe not with wins but I see improvement)

I mean he’s an alright coach. Not horrendous but I doubt he gets us even close to the cup. I think Babcock was way better and Blashill is a downgrade. But I also think Babcock ran his course here. 

I think of Blashill as a transition guy like Dave Lewis. I have a feeling we will get a new coach in a couple of years. 

[Dabura 12,207]

Playing on the wall on the PP isn't just about shooting. In a 1-3-1 setup, those two wall guys are basically running the show. Ideally, they're lethal shooters and expert playmakers.

I don't mind Mantha being the net-front guy; it makes sense and it works. But, given his possession prowess and skill level, Mantha also makes sense as a wall guy. At least in theory. Putting Mantha on the wall doesn't mean you have to put Abby there. Why not, say, Vanek? One unit with Rasmussen, the other with Vanek.

We'll see where Bylsma slots people. Should be interesting.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

8 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

It literally is. Shooting percentage goes up the closer you get to the net.

I assume you're using the old sarcasm. Those first 3 players just suck. Way too soon to put AA or Mantha on a list of "ruined" players.

With one click, I destroy your logic.

[krsmith17 7,191]

7 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

With one click, I destroy your logic.

I know you're likely joking, but Helm definitely has a much better shooting percentage in tight than he does out high, just like every single other player in the history of the game. 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

35 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I know you're likely joking, but Helm definitely has a much better shooting percentage in tight than he does out high, just like every single other player in the history of the game. 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

On 8/14/2018 at 5:11 PM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

BTW...

Tri-Cities named Rasmussen C again for this coming year. Maybe they're expecting him back? Probably just a formality just in case thou

Looking over jerseys on ebay to buy a new one for training camp. Found yours for sale. What's Up?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cameron-Frye-Ferris-Buellers-Day-Off-Detroit-Red-Wings-Movie-Hockey-Jersey/332595281960?var=541701195136&hash=item4d70394028:m:m7T-ECPL_FEbf5mlVlojBCg:sc:USPSFirstClass!46825!US!-1

Edited August 16, 2018 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Looking over jerseys on ebay to buy a new one for training camp. Found yours for sale. What's Up?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cameron-Frye-Ferris-Buellers-Day-Off-Detroit-Red-Wings-Movie-Hockey-Jersey/332595281960?var=541701195136&hash=item4d70394028:m:m7T-ECPL_FEbf5mlVlojBCg:sc:USPSFirstClass!46825!US!-1

Id invest, but ill be jumping ship for the Seattle Sock-Eyes too soon now

[Buppy 1,720]

15 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Wheeler and Mantha are both big guys that can skate really well, protect the puck, have good hands and a quick release. The thing is, I'm comparing Mantha to what Wheeler was early in his career, and what I think Mantha could become, not a direct comparison to what the players are now. Of course Wheeler is far better than Mantha now, but do you think Mantha tops out as a 40-50 point player? Did you miss the point I made about how their stats were similar early in their respective careers? (Mantha being slightly better). Wheeler also scores in a variety of different ways. A lot of his goals come within two feet of the crease, much like Mantha, but he also scores quite a few out high, and some even from the point. He's used as a net front, similarly to Mantha, but the difference is Winnipeg actually have a ton of legit snipers on their team. He's also been used out high on the power-play in the past, and had great success.

I don't think being compared to Tatar is an insult at all. I just don't see any similarities in their games, other than having a good shot...

Exactly. Player comparisons are all bulls*** because the only standards are whatever we want to say they are. Wheeler and Mantha are exactly the same, in Wheeler's past, and maybe Mantha's future but probably not because the 30g/60p sniper you think Mantha will be isn't really the same as the 25g/75p all-around player Wheeler is, but that's still the same because sometimes Wheeler does the thing you say Mantha shouldn't be doing because it's a waste of his talents and anyone can do it. Makes perfect sense. Plus they're the exact same size. 

Ok, so Tatar isn't an insult. Yet your gut reaction was to put down Tatar's game and declare Mantha better. "Not a single similarity" at first, though I guess he's been practicing his shot a bunch since that post if it's now worthy of comparison to Mantha "elite level" shot. Hey, you know who else had stats similar to Mantha in his first couple years?

15 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

"Abby and two kids who have never been tried there in the NHL"... So Nyquist, Vanek, three kids who have never been tried there in the NHL, and two older players (one that might not even play this season) that are more of setup guys than true snipers.

This season on the power-play, I'd go with Rasmussen and Abdelkader / Bertuzzi as net front, and Vanek, Nyquist, Mantha, Athanasiou / Zadina / Frk as the triggermen. If you disagree with that, that's fine.

Again, this isn't about Mantha. He's going to score goals regardless where he is on the ice. I just think it would be in the team's best interest to put players in position that best utilizes their strengths. Put your best shooters in position to shoot. In my opinion, Mantha is one of the best shooters on the team.

How good do I think Mantha is? I already answered that, but once again, I think he's our best winger, and best pure goal scorer.

Lol. Yeah, Nyquist, Vanek, Nielsen, and maybe Zetterberg are definitely equivalent to Abby, and there's not a bit of difference between Larkin and AA (combined over 400 games, 99 goals, around 700 minutes of PP time) and Bertuzzi (48g, 7g, under 70 minutes of PP time and a whole 7 shots on the PP). For that matter, both Larkin and AA have more NHL experience as "PP shooters" than Mantha. I'll give you Ras and Zadina, same situation there. But I find it hard to believe that you of all people would rather see Abby on the PP over Zadina, so let's just assume that, like Rasmussen, if he's on the team he should be on the PP. All in all I don't really see how our wingers are any worse off than our net-front play would be without Mantha.

 

5 hours ago, Dabura said:

Playing on the wall on the PP isn't just about shooting. In a 1-3-1 setup, those two wall guys are basically running the show. Ideally, they're lethal shooters and expert playmakers.

I don't mind Mantha being the net-front guy; it makes sense and it works. But, given his possession prowess and skill level, Mantha also makes sense as a wall guy. At least in theory. Putting Mantha on the wall doesn't mean you have to put Abby there. Why not, say, Vanek? One unit with Rasmussen, the other with Vanek.

We'll see where Bylsma slots people. Should be interesting.

Sure, we could put anyone there, but wouldn't that be the same "square peg" thing we're supposedly doing wrong with Mantha? 

Mantha was one of the few good things we had going last year. I don't think we should be in any hurry to change that just to conform to a 5-year-old preconception of Mantha being a "lethal shooter". 

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

4 hours ago, Buppy said:

Lol. Yeah, Nyquist, Vanek, Nielsen, and maybe Zetterberg are definitely equivalent to Abby, and there's not a bit of difference between Larkin and AA (combined over 400 games, 99 goals, around 700 minutes of PP time) and Bertuzzi (48g, 7g, under 70 minutes of PP time and a whole 7 shots on the PP). For that matter, both Larkin and AA have more NHL experience as "PP shooters" than Mantha. I'll give you Ras and Zadina, same situation there. But I find it hard to believe that you of all people would rather see Abby on the PP over Zadina, so let's just assume that, like Rasmussen, if he's on the team he should be on the PP. All in all I don't really see how our wingers are any worse off than our net-front play would be without Mantha.

None of this makes any sense whatsoever... Where did I say that Nyquist, Vanek, Nielsen or Zetterberg are equitant to Abby? I didn't. Where did I say I'd rather have Abby on the power-play over Zadina? I didn't. Same ol' Buppy. Can't win an argument so start trying to force false narratives. You do it every f***ing time. You either try to put words in my mouth (see above), or spin the argument into something completely irrelevant to the main point. Main point - where Mantha should play on the power-play. What you focus on - everything else... I think Mantha should play up high on the power-play to better utilize his shot, and I think it's a waste of his talent to strictly play him down low / in front of the net. You disagree, which I'm fine with. But you have to spend hours / pages trying to prove why my opinion is wrong... It's absurd.

[Dabura 12,207]

6 hours ago, Buppy said:

Sure, we could put anyone there, but wouldn't that be the same "square peg" thing we're supposedly doing wrong with Mantha? 

Mantha was one of the few good things we had going last year. I don't think we should be in any hurry to change that just to conform to a 5-year-old preconception of Mantha being a "lethal shooter".

I wouldn't be in a hurry to change Mantha's role. But let's not forget that our power play was, on the whole, a raging tire fire.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

I think a key point to the Net-Front/Outside-Shooter debate, and disagree with me if I'm wrong, is that there's a much lower threshold of talent needed to be a net-front guy. I say talent in the traditional sense (passing/skating/shooting/dangles/hockeyIQ). Look at Holmstrom and Abby. Not the most talented players of all time by any means. Probably both bottom 6ers if not utilized in niche roles.

Talent for the net-front role is different. As a net front guy you just gotta preferably be on the larger side, strong, aggressive or at least willing to take abuse, and hopefully have some hand-eye coordination to get your blade on a flying puck once in awhile. These players are a lot more easy to come by than top flight talented players, and the role is easier to fill.

In that sense I think it can feel like Mantha's talent is being wasted as the net front-guy. Especially if you have a high opinion of his other talents. There's an argument to be made that you should move the talented guy to the outside where he can snipe/skate/play-make, and insert an Abdlkader/Bertuzzi/Rasmussen/Smith type player down low instead. And that argument is helped by the fact that Rasmussen, a very talented player who's made his home in front of the net, is likely entering the team.

Like Dabura said, our PP blows chunks right now, therefore I'm all open to experimentation. I'd love to see Mantha forced to play a variety of roles on the PP.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Well said CRL. Precisely why I'd like to see Mantha given an opportunity as a shooter / playmaker on the power-play. Any player can play net front. It takes high end skill to play on the perimeter and score / set up plays from there. In my opinion, Mantha can do that, while Abdelkader, Bertuzzi, Rasmussen (or anyone) plays net front.