2018 Prospect Tournament and Training Camp

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

18 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Well said CRL. Precisely why I'd like to see Mantha given an opportunity as a shooter / playmaker on the power-play. Any player can play net front. It takes high end skill to play on the perimeter and score / set up plays from there. In my opinion, Mantha can do that, while Abdelkader, Bertuzzi, Rasmussen (or anyone) plays net front.

1. Mantha has like, above average skill. Not high end. Take off dem Tony Shades. 

2. Saying anyone can play netfront is pretty insulting to the elite guys like Holmstom, Hornquist etc. 

Let's put it this way: I can only hope and pray that Mantha is as good at whatever role they give him as Holmstrom was at what he did.

3. Stop trying to passive-aggressively shart on Rasmussen's skill set: "Anyone can play net front. You know, like stone hands Abdlekader, Bertuzzi, Uncle Frank, that girl I saw at Walmart, like literally ANYONE! And I guess Rasmussen too, you know, if he even makes the NHL and stuff" 

[Dabura 12,207]

2 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Mantha has like, above average skill. Not high end.

letsgowings.com/hottakes

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

11 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

1. Mantha has like, above average skill. Not high end. Take off dem Tony Shades. 

2. Saying anyone can play netfront is pretty insulting to the elite guys like Holmstom, Hornquist etc. 

Let's put it this way: I can only hope and pray that Mantha is as good at whatever role they give him as Holmstrom was at what he did.

3. Stop trying to passive-aggressively shart on Rasmussen's skill set: "Anyone can play net front. You know, like stone hands Abdlekader, Bertuzzi, Uncle Frank, that girl I saw at Walmart, like literally ANYONE! And I guess Rasmussen too, you know, if he even makes the NHL and stuff" 

2. It definitely takes a certain skill-set/type of player. Not every player is suited for it.

3. I don't know if Rasmussen will ever be as good as Holmstrom in front of the net, but he probably won't have to be. Homer was average at most other facets of the game and carved out his niche that he excelled at. Rasmussen is talented at seemingly all facets of the game, he just chooses to play in the dirty areas cause he's a badass like that.

[krsmith17 7,191]

59 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

1. Mantha has like, above average skill. Not high end. Take off dem Tony Shades. 

2. Saying anyone can play netfront is pretty insulting to the elite guys like Holmstom, Hornquist etc. 

Let's put it this way: I can only hope and pray that Mantha is as good at whatever role they give him as Holmstrom was at what he did.

3. Stop trying to passive-aggressively shart on Rasmussen's skill set: "Anyone can play net front. You know, like stone hands Abdlekader, Bertuzzi, Uncle Frank, that girl I saw at Walmart, like literally ANYONE! And I guess Rasmussen too, you know, if he even makes the NHL and stuff" 

1. I'm talking high end, in comparison to the team. I think Mantha is the best winger on the team.

2. Anyone in the NHL can play net front. And anyone in the NHL can score goals playing net front on the power-play. This is in no way a slight against the best net front guys in the league. Of course there are some better than others. Holmstrom was one of the best ever.

3. Stop trying to insinuate that I have this vendetta against Rasmussen, and everything I say is meant to take a dig at him. It's not. When have I ever suggested he might not make the NHL? I've said that I think Rasmussen will be a top six winger, and I think he has the potential to become an elite net front guy.

[joesuffP 1,746]

Mantha is the only guy that can score on the PP as he is utilized. His PP numbers are great especially for how terrible the team is on the PP

[Dabura 12,207]

4 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Like Dabura said, our PP blows chunks right now, therefore I'm all open to experimentation.

yeh.

You don't want to be trying to fix something that isn't broken. That being said...

• Mantha as the net-front guy on the power play = Mantha scored some power play goals = Mantha as the net-front guy works
• The power play, on the whole = broken as f***

There's a good argument for keeping Mantha in that role and there's a good argument for moving him to the wall or the high slot and trying new things.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

16 minutes ago, Dabura said:

yeh.

You don't want to be trying to fix something that isn't broken. That being said...

• Mantha as the net-front guy on the power play = Mantha scored some power play goals = Mantha as the net-front guy works
• The power play, on the whole = broken as f***

There's a good argument for keeping Mantha in that role and there's a good argument for moving him to the wall or the high slot and trying new things.

Need elite point-man

[Dabura 12,207]

3 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Need elite point-man

Hronek 2 the rescue.

https://www.nhl.com/redwings/news/wings-blashill-its-a-wide-open-roster-more-than-ever-before/c-298952646

"I think Filip Hronek showed the ability to run a power play last year in Grand Rapids. Filip runs a power play similar to me to a guy I just coached (in the world championship) in Will Butcher, where he's a very, very good facilitator. He shoots when he should shoot, he passes when he should pass, it's not super flashy but it's extremely efficient. Will Butcher was an excellent addition for Jersey this year. One of the reasons Jersey climbed in the standings is because their power play got way better and one of the reasons it got way better is they added Will Butcher. I think when you add certain pieces, it can really help. Now both of those particular players have to make our team, both those particular players - and I've told both of them, I want you to make our team, 100 percent, because I think if you make our team, it means you've earned it and it means we're better. If they do that, they have a chance to make our power play better."

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

9 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Hronek 2 the rescue.

https://www.nhl.com/redwings/news/wings-blashill-its-a-wide-open-roster-more-than-ever-before/c-298952646

"I think Filip Hronek showed the ability to run a power play last year in Grand Rapids. Filip runs a power play similar to me to a guy I just coached (in the world championship) in Will Butcher, where he's a very, very good facilitator. He shoots when he should shoot, he passes when he should pass, it's not super flashy but it's extremely efficient. Will Butcher was an excellent addition for Jersey this year. One of the reasons Jersey climbed in the standings is because their power play got way better and one of the reasons it got way better is they added Will Butcher. I think when you add certain pieces, it can really help. Now both of those particular players have to make our team, both those particular players - and I've told both of them, I want you to make our team, 100 percent, because I think if you make our team, it means you've earned it and it means we're better. If they do that, they have a chance to make our power play better."

Checks handedness

Sorry, gonna have to pass on this one

[Dabura 12,207]

1 minute ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Checks handedness

Sorry, gonna have to pass on this one

No, we like RHD now. We still hate RHF, unless they're defensively-challenged specialists.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

6 minutes ago, Dabura said:

No, we like RHD now. We still hate RHF, unless they're defensively-challenged specialists.

Yeah, f*** Glendening. There's only room for one Luke Skywalker on this team.

Holland > Grand Rapids

[Buppy 1,720]

8 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

None of this makes any sense whatsoever... Where did I say that Nyquist, Vanek, Nielsen or Zetterberg are equitant to Abby? I didn't. Where did I say I'd rather have Abby on the power-play over Zadina? I didn't. Same ol' Buppy. Can't win an argument so start trying to force false narratives. You do it every f***ing time. You either try to put words in my mouth (see above), or spin the argument into something completely irrelevant to the main point. Main point - where Mantha should play on the power-play. What you focus on - everything else... I think Mantha should play up high on the power-play to better utilize his shot, and I think it's a waste of his talent to strictly play him down low / in front of the net. You disagree, which I'm fine with. But you have to spend hours / pages trying to prove why my opinion is wrong... It's absurd.

You're the one who flipped my "Abby and two kids..." comment around and applied it to the other forwards. At least now you admit it was a very stupid thing for you to do. Good.

And I specifically said I thought you would want Zadina on the PP. Your list of wingers was "Nyquist, Vanek, Mantha," then "AA/Zadina/Frk". Three players for that one spot. I was saying that Zadina, if he's on the team, is more of a "comma" than a "slash". So if we have four (or five if you include Frk) wingers you think are good enough, why do you think we have such a desperate need for Mantha in that spot?

And if you don't want to discuss your opinions, don't post them on the internet. Don't try to act like I'm the only one arguing. Every post I make, you respond.

 

4 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I think a key point to the Net-Front/Outside-Shooter debate, and disagree with me if I'm wrong, is that there's a much lower threshold of talent needed to be a net-front guy. I say talent in the traditional sense (passing/skating/shooting/dangles/hockeyIQ). Look at Holmstrom and Abby. Not the most talented players of all time by any means. Probably both bottom 6ers if not utilized in niche roles.

Talent for the net-front role is different. As a net front guy you just gotta preferably be on the larger side, strong, aggressive or at least willing to take abuse, and hopefully have some hand-eye coordination to get your blade on a flying puck once in awhile. These players are a lot more easy to come by than top flight talented players, and the role is easier to fill.

In that sense I think it can feel like Mantha's talent is being wasted as the net front-guy. Especially if you have a high opinion of his other talents. There's an argument to be made that you should move the talented guy to the outside where he can snipe/skate/play-make, and insert an Abdlkader/Bertuzzi/Rasmussen/Smith type player down low instead. And that argument is helped by the fact that Rasmussen, a very talented player who's made his home in front of the net, is likely entering the team.

Like Dabura said, our PP blows chunks right now, therefore I'm all open to experimentation. I'd love to see Mantha forced to play a variety of roles on the PP.

I don't disagree, but I think we can all also agree that it is a skill. Players can be good at it, or bad. I think most of us would also agree that Mantha appears to be more toward the good side. So if it's a skill that he has, but we don't put him in a role to use it, would that not also be "wasting" talent? Isn't it a waste of talent to take AA or Nielsen or whoever off the PP entirely to make room for Abby/Bert? 

Nothing happens in a vaccuum. Change one thing, and something else also has to change. No matter what you do, from one perspective or another you're "wasting" something. Krs whines because I focus on the big picture, but that's how reality works. If you're not considering everything, you're not doing it right.

Mantha was the best part of the PP, logically it seems that should be one of the last things we look to change. We're already going to "experiment" in plenty of ways. We replaced Tatar with Vanek. We may lose Zetterberg. Likely to insert Rasmussen, maybe Zadina. Frk might be out so maybe we won't spend half of every PP trying to act like he's Ovie. There will also be injuries or other situations where players who aren't regulars get a shot on the PP. Bert and Abby will almost certainly get some time. Someone will likely not perform well, maybe AA, maybe Ras will suck, maybe last year was a fluke and it will be Mantha. But I'd say the time to experiment with the working stuff is either when it stops working or when you find something that works better.

[kipwinger 8,522]

Here's an article in which all the goals scored in the 2016 NHL season were mapped by their location on the ice as well as by the type of shot. 

https://www.omha.net/news_article/show/667329-the-science-of-scoring

[Dabura 12,207]

7 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Yeah, f*** Glendening. There's only room for one Luke Skywalker on this team.

Holland > Grand Rapids

Glendening is a specialist tho. So we like Glendening.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

14 minutes ago, Buppy said:

You're the one who flipped my "Abby and two kids..." comment around and applied it to the other forwards. At least now you admit it was a very stupid thing for you to do. Good.

And I specifically said I thought you would want Zadina on the PP. Your list of wingers was "Nyquist, Vanek, Mantha," then "AA/Zadina/Frk". Three players for that one spot. I was saying that Zadina, if he's on the team, is more of a "comma" than a "slash". So if we have four (or five if you include Frk) wingers you think are good enough, why do you think we have such a desperate need for Mantha in that spot?

And if you don't want to discuss your opinions, don't post them on the internet. Don't try to act like I'm the only one arguing. Every post I make, you respond.

 

I don't disagree, but I think we can all also agree that it is a skill. Players can be good at it, or bad. I think most of us would also agree that Mantha appears to be more toward the good side. So if it's a skill that he has, but we don't put him in a role to use it, would that not also be "wasting" talent? Isn't it a waste of talent to take AA or Nielsen or whoever off the PP entirely to make room for Abby/Bert? 

Nothing happens in a vaccuum. Change one thing, and something else also has to change. No matter what you do, from one perspective or another you're "wasting" something. Krs whines because I focus on the big picture, but that's how reality works. If you're not considering everything, you're not doing it right.

Mantha was the best part of the PP, logically it seems that should be one of the last things we look to change. We're already going to "experiment" in plenty of ways. We replaced Tatar with Vanek. We may lose Zetterberg. Likely to insert Rasmussen, maybe Zadina. Frk might be out so maybe we won't spend half of every PP trying to act like he's Ovie. There will also be injuries or other situations where players who aren't regulars get a shot on the PP. Bert and Abby will almost certainly get some time. Someone will likely not perform well, maybe AA, maybe Ras will suck, maybe last year was a fluke and it will be Mantha. But I'd say the time to experiment with the working stuff is either when it stops working or when you find something that works better.

My point was that IMO the threshold on talent for being a net-front guy is lower than for most other roles. Not that it's not a skill. It certainly is. In front of the net you don't have to pass/skate/think-the-game too much. Which is why big strong players who are not as skilled can fill this role.

For example: I like Abdelkader in the front of the net, but I wouldn't want him anywhere else on the PP.

Mantha is big and strong, like Abdelkader, so he's great at net-front... but he's also very skilled where Abby is not. His passing/skating/IQ essentially isn't being utilized on the PP in this role. Which is why I can see the argument that you put some one else (like an Abdelkader or Rasmussen) there and let Mantha loose on the open ice.

Anyway, my view on Mantha's role is not rigid. I'm fine with him playing either role, I think he has the skills to do either/or. You seem to be certain he should only play net-front... I would have to disagree there.

I think he can probably do both jobs

[Dabura 12,207]

1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

You guys are all forgetting that unless you have a laser on one side (Ovechkin, Benn, Laine, etc), the forwards are going to be in constant movement on a power play.  They ALL have to be good in the slot, good at getting to the front, good at moving the puck.  Mantha is good at all of these.  What's wrong with just saying he should BE on the pp, and then letting him play?  It's not like he's going to forget how to play hockey when the other team has a man in the box.

I kinda agree.

I've been trying to draw up my ideal configurations for the two PP units and there are so many options and so few clear-cut "This guy MUST play THIS role" cases that it almost feels pointless to argue over who should be slotted where.

Under Bylsma, a mostly toothless Sabres team had a league-best PP. So I'm expecting Bylsma to improve our PP. And that's all I want: improvement.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Dabura

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

My point was that IMO the threshold on talent for being a net-front guy is lower than for most other roles. Not that it's not a skill. It certainly is. In front of the net you don't have to pass/skate/think-the-game too much. Which is why big strong players who are not as skilled can fill this role.

For example: I like Abdelkader in the front of the net, but I wouldn't want him anywhere else on the PP.

Mantha is big and strong, like Abdelkader, so he's great at net-front... but he's also very skilled where Abby is not. His passing/skating/IQ essentially isn't being utilized on the PP in this role. Which is why I can see the argument that you put some one else (like an Abdelkader or Rasmussen) there and let Mantha loose on the open ice.

Anyway, my view on Mantha's role is not rigid. I'm fine with him playing either role, I think he has the skills to do either/or. You seem to be certain he should only play net-front... I would have to disagree there.

I think he can probably do both jobs

It takes someone with a significant PENIS to stand in front of the net on the PP. Abby should be there. His PENIS is the largest.

[Buppy 1,720]

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

My point was that IMO the threshold on talent for being a net-front guy is lower than for most other roles. Not that it's not a skill. It certainly is. In front of the net you don't have to pass/skate/think-the-game too much. Which is why big strong players who are not as skilled can fill this role.

For example: I like Abdelkader in the front of the net, but I wouldn't want him anywhere else on the PP.

Mantha is big and strong, like Abdelkader, so he's great at net-front... but he's also very skilled where Abby is not. His passing/skating/IQ essentially isn't being utilized on the PP in this role. Which is why I can see the argument that you put some one else (like an Abdelkader or Rasmussen) there and let Mantha loose on the open ice.

Anyway, my view on Mantha's role is not rigid. I'm fine with him playing either role, I think he has the skills to do either/or. You seem to be certain he should only play net-front... I would have to disagree there.

I think he can probably do both jobs

Yeah, I get what you're saying and again, I don't disagree. But what I was saying is that the whole "wasting talent" thing is a poor argument, because you're always wasting someone's talent. Move Mantha out to the wing, you're taking that spot away from someone else. Someone else with talent. Focusing on "how do we maximize the use of Mantha's talent" is too myopic. The question should be how to best arrange the talent to maximize the team. 

It's not that I think Mantha can or should only play net-front, or even that he's better at it than he could be on the outside. It's that I think net-front-Mantha is a bigger upgrade over Abby/Bertuzzi than outside-Mantha would be over AA/whichever winger. 

 

1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

You guys are all forgetting that unless you have a laser on one side (Ovechkin, Benn, Laine, etc), the forwards are going to be in constant movement on a power play.  They ALL have to be good in the slot, good at getting to the front, good at moving the puck.  Mantha is good at all of these.  What's wrong with just saying he should BE on the pp, and then letting him play?  It's not like he's going to forget how to play hockey when the other team has a man in the box.

To a point. Roles are thing, and they matter, but this does raise the point that we're oversimplifying to some degree.

That's Mantha's PP shot map from last year. So even playing net-front his other talents aren't wholly "wasted".

 

[Buppy 1,720]

[krsmith17 7,191]

16 hours ago, Buppy said:

You're the one who flipped my "Abby and two kids..." comment around and applied it to the other forwards. At least now you admit it was a very stupid thing for you to do. Good.

And I specifically said I thought you would want Zadina on the PP. Your list of wingers was "Nyquist, Vanek, Mantha," then "AA/Zadina/Frk". Three players for that one spot. I was saying that Zadina, if he's on the team, is more of a "comma" than a "slash". So if we have four (or five if you include Frk) wingers you think are good enough, why do you think we have such a desperate need for Mantha in that spot?

And if you don't want to discuss your opinions, don't post them on the internet. Don't try to act like I'm the only one arguing. Every post I make, you respond.

I "flipped your Abby and two kids comment" because you were attempting to downplay the need for shooters (and still are), and make it seem like we have all these unproven net front guys, when you listed just as many unproven shooters...

Yes, my list of shooters would be Nyquist, Vanek, Mantha and one of Athanasiou, Zadina or Frk. If Zadina proves to be the sniper he's expected to be, the spot is his. If not, I'd give it to Athanasiou. Frk won't be a regular this season, unless injuries hit, and if / when that happens, I'd give him a look as well.

I don't think there's a "desperate need for Mantha to be in that spot", I just think it would be smart to at least try him there. In my opinion, he's our best shooter, and like has been mentioned, our power-play has been awful, so why not experiment with it?

I have no problem discussing opinions, but when you constantly try to put words in my mouth or change the topic, it gets a little annoying...

Anyway, I'm done with this. I'm hoping with the addition of Rasmussen and Bylsam, Mantha will at least get a look on the right side of the ice.

[joesuffP 1,746]

The PP will be overhauled so Mantha’s position may change. But as far as 5 on 5 play goes I don’t think Mantha is forced to play a net front role by Blashill. It may just seem like that because that’s where he scores the majority of his goals. And has anyone ever though maybe that Mantha likes to play around the net?

[kipwinger 8,522]

I don't really understand this line of thinking.   Tons of skilled player,  most more skilled than Mantha, see regular or exclusive net front time on the PP.   Off the top of my head,  Benn,  Perry,  Pacioretty,  Wheeler,  Backes, Kreider, JVR,  and Simmonds are all highly skilled players who also play in front of the net.   So maybe there's something to it and it's not that Blashill is "wasting" a skill player.   Maybe it's actually preferable to have a skilled guy there. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

15 hours ago, Buppy said:

Yeah, I get what you're saying and again, I don't disagree. But what I was saying is that the whole "wasting talent" thing is a poor argument, because you're always wasting someone's talent. Move Mantha out to the wing, you're taking that spot away from someone else. Someone else with talent. Focusing on "how do we maximize the use of Mantha's talent" is too myopic. The question should be how to best arrange the talent to maximize the team. 

It's not that I think Mantha can or should only play net-front, or even that he's better at it than he could be on the outside. It's that I think net-front-Mantha is a bigger upgrade over Abby/Bertuzzi than outside-Mantha would be over AA/whichever winger. 

 

To a point. Roles are thing, and they matter, but this does raise the point that we're oversimplifying to some degree.

That's Mantha's PP shot map from last year. So even playing net-front his other talents aren't wholly "wasted".

 

And I agree with you, moving Mantha to the outside probably puts him in Nyquist's spot. Then where does Nyquist go? It's all a puzzle, and yes we have to make those puzzle pieces fit to the most benefit of the team. I think everyone is on board with that. Maybe the best setup is Mantha in front of the net full time, maybe it's not. I could see either way at this point. I think the PP needs lots of shuffling and experimentation. I know I'd definitely like to see Ras playing net front on the PP at some point this season, even if it's on the 2nd unit.

I definitely agree that Mantha is an upgrade in front of the net than Abby or Bertuzzi (probably). Is it more of an upgrade than Mantha at wing? I don't know really, which is kinda why I'd like to see Mantha play there for a few PPs.

Again, I think the darkhorse in all of this is Rasmussen. He's been advertised to us as great all-around player who likes to play in front of the net, kinda like Getzlaf, Pacioretty, etc. as Kip mentioned. If this is true maybe he ends up as a better net front guy than Mantha and displaces him there? Will be interesting to see what Byslma does this year, he is a pretty good PP coach in my mind.

Edited August 17, 2018 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

46 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I don't really understand this line of thinking.   Tons of skilled player,  most more skilled than Mantha, see regular or exclusive net front time on the PP.   Off the top of my head,  Benn,  Perry,  Pacioretty,  Wheeler,  Backes, Kreider, JVR,  and Simmonds are all highly skilled players who also play in front of the net.   So maybe there's something to it and it's not that Blashill is "wasting" a skill player.   Maybe it's actually preferable to have a skilled guy there. 

Again, I don't think anyone claims Blashill is wasting Mantha, just that he may have that tools to also excel in another role, especially with guys like Rasmussen joining the team who play similar net-front roles as Mantha does now.

[Dabura 12,207]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Again, I think the darkhorse in all of this is Rasmussen. He's been advertised to us as great all-around player who likes to play in front of the net, kinda like Getzlaf, Pacioretty, etc. as Kip mentioned. If this is true maybe he ends up as a better net front guy than Mantha and displaces him there? Will be interesting to see what Byslma does this year, he is a pretty good PP coach in my mind.

Wouldn't surprise me if Rasmussen's in front of the net on the first PP unit on opening night. That's one of the reasons why I'm thinking Mantha could -- and maybe should -- be moved to the wall or the high slot on the first unit.

https://www.nhl.com/redwings/news/wings-blashill-its-a-wide-open-roster-more-than-ever-before/c-298952646

"Rasmussen, to me, when I went out and watched him, if he does what I think he can do and that's make our hockey team, he's got a real chance to make our power play better," Blashill said. "He's an excellent, and I mean excellent, net-front presence guy with his ability to tip pucks, his ability to score in tight areas, so we should be excited about that. He wants to do that, that's where he wants to be.

That's pretty high praise for a teenager who's never played a single game of pro hockey. Clearly he has big plans for the big guy.

Edited August 17, 2018 by Dabura