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Jonas Mahonas

5 Keys To Success

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Trade for a defenseman that will be here when we're actually going to contend.

Sign UFA defensemen able to be part of your future contention.

Trade anyone that isn't a part of your future at the deadline for more draft picks.

Draft defensemen.

Develop defensemen better.

 

No matter who the GM, coaches, etc.  We will not contend until our defense gets better.

Edited by e_prime

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The defense has to improve. I'm not sure we have to draft dmen specifically as I'd rather just draft BPA, at least with our 1st round pick(s), but if we don't/can't draft at least one blue chip dman, then we need to have enough top 3 line forwards that we can trade some of them for one or two 1st pairing caliber guys. We're not quite there yet, but another draft like the one we just had and I think we'll be able to think seriously about landing a legit first pairing dman to replace Kronner or E when they're gone.

I'm also beginning to doubt Blashill is the coach that gets us out of the cellar.

A lot depends on how some of the young guns look early this year. If Larkin, Mantha, Ras, and AA all look like they're going to keep improving AND Svech and Zadina look like they're ready to challenge other guys for a spot in the top 3 lines then I think we begin to look around for trades that make sense(Dmen/picks)...particularly at the deadline(Nyquist). We still don't know for sure if the captain is coming back for another year, so it's a bit tough to put it all together, but the team is definitely moving in the right direction...finally.

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Agree with E on the list, but in defense of not taking a D with the #6 overall, we HAD to draft Zadina, if it wasn't him, it would've been a D (probably Hughes.)

1. Trade For a Young Defenseman this year.

       We have tradeable assets up front to get a young top pairing D.

2. Sign UFA D-Man that is starting or in his prime NOW on July 1 2019.

3. Trade off salary at TDL to make room for signing said D-man and other possible UFA

       This includes Nyquist, Howard, Ericsson, Helm, Nielsen. Not interested in "competing" this year, need to clear cap to sign UFA D. Must dump as much salary at the TDL and acquire as many picks as possible.

4. STOP signing players we don't really need for multiple years! Sure, Holland wants to compete this year (stupid) but if we are to really get rebuilding, we need to only sign for 1 year with NO NTC. IMO, if we are resetting everything, we didn't NEED to sign Green, Vanek or Bernier except to trade them this March.

5. Get #1 pick, draft Jack Hughes, then draft smart. The more D the better, but if an O falls to us, take him. Just draft SMART!

 

So, Examples

#1. We can just go hard after Trouba this season, we have AA, Svech and we can afford to dump the 2020 1st round pick.

#2. Obviously if he is UFA the prize would be Karlsson.  After him, I am not sure if there are any other #1 guys available. So if we got Trouba, then allow our kids to develop here. Cholowski, Hronek, McIsaac. Those are the three I am looking at.

#3. Just as stated, trade salary away! And also trade pending UFA's for picks. Get as many picks for 2019/2020 as possible!

#4. Whats done is done this season, but next year, DO NOT give mediocre players two or three year deals. If our kids aren't ready to come up, then if you need to sign a stopgap UFA for a season, fine. But stop signing expensive multi-year deals.

#5. Obviously hoping for #1 overall, but ya, just like this year, draft smart, draft need, draft often! DEVELOPE! DO NOT STUNT THEIR DEVELOPMENT BY MAKING THEM GO BACK TO JUNIOR OR AHL WHEN THEY'RE BETTER OFF HERE! I believe this year Zadina and Rasmusson should be here, by next season add Svech (if not traded) Berggren, Veleno, Cholowski, Hronek fulltime.  Sometime within next season (19-20) and the following, we should have dumped or not re-signed the vets and we should also see Smith, Pope and Turgeon along with Jack Hughes ;) 

Edited by LeftWinger

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I would just try to be patient, opportunistic.

We're not close to being a contender. Outside of landing Karlsson and/or Jack Hughes, there's no quick fix for our plight. I'd be kicking tires on other teams' young defensemen, but we're not really in a position to swing that kind of trade.

Edited by Dabura

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25 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

We've been talking about trading for a "top dman" since 2012. Fact of the matter is top dmen don't move. And they rarely hit the UFA as well. Nothing's impossible, but I would say it's highly unlikely. If you want a cornerstone dman you gotta draft em.

I disagree that they don't move. Seth Jones, P.K. Subban, Shea Weber, Dougie Hamilton (twice), Noah Hanifin, (arguably) Mikhail Sergachev, (arguably) Samuel Girard.

The problem is that in order to acquire Jones / Subban / Weber / Hamilton / Hanifin / Sergachev / Girard in a trade, you need Ryan Johansen / Weber / Subban / 1st + 2nd + 2nd / Hanifin / Hamilton / Jonathan Drouin / Matt Duchene. And you've gotta feel damn sure that, at absolute worst, the trade is a wash for you.

The Wings don't have that luxury.

Edited by Dabura

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3 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I disagree that they don't move. Seth Jones, P.K. Subban, Shea Weber, Dougie Hamilton (twice), Noah Hanifin, (arguably) Mikhail Sergachev, (arguably) Samuel Girard.

The problem is that in order to acquire Jones / Subban / Weber / Hamilton / Hanifin / Sergachev / Girard in a trade, you need Ryan Johansen / Shea Weber / P.K. Subban / 1st + 2nd + 2nd / Noah Hanifin / Dougie Hamilton / Jonathan Drouin / Matt Duchene. And you've gotta feel damn sure that, at absolute worst, the trade is a wash for you.

The Wings don't have that luxury.

I don't think we disagree necessarily. Of the ones you listed I personally only consider Jones, Subban, and Weber to be cornerstones (some of them may get there). Weber and Subban were swapped for each other and Jones for RyJo. And I think Nashville lost that trade. RyJo helped them get to a SCF, but Jones is wayyy more valuable IMO. Nashville was loaded with Dmen and needed forwards though so I get it. Like you said earlier, Columbus benefited from being opportunistic.

Like I said, It's not impossible, just highly unlikely. Great dmen are coveted league-wide. We shouldn't hedge our bets on a trade, we should do our due diligence and draft one.

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Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I don't think we disagree necessarily. Of the ones you listed I personally only consider Jones, Subban, and Weber to be cornerstones (some of them may get there). Weber and Subban were swapped for each other and Jones for RyJo. And I think Nashville lost that trade. RyJo helped them get to a SCF, but Jones is wayyy more valuable IMO. Nashville was loaded with Dmen and needed forwards though so I get it. Like you said earlier, Columbus benefited from being opportunistic.

Like I said, It's not impossible, just highly unlikely. Great dmen are coveted league-wide. We shouldn't hedge our bets on a trade, we should do our due diligence and draft one.

Ah, ok. If we're talking proven cornerstone defensemen, it's probably just Subban and Weber and maybe Jones.

We're in agreement on the bottom line: the Wings have to find That Defenseman in the draft. Hope isn't a strategy. Hoping for a Trouba trade or a Karlsson signing isn't a strategy.

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13 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Ah, ok. If we're talking proven cornerstone defensemen, it's probably just Subban and Weber and maybe Jones.

We're in agreement on the bottom line: the Wings have to find That Defenseman in the draft. Hope isn't a strategy. Hoping for a Trouba trade or a Karlsson signing isn't a strategy.

Exactly.

There's huge grey area around who is and who isn't a cornerstone guy anyway, and to be fair we could desperately use any one of the guys you listed.

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While the established blueline studs seldom move and cost a fortune in assets to obtain when they do move, I think it's a mistake to assume we must aim at those guys. While guys like Trouba, Faulk, OEL, etc are clearly a tier removed from the elite dmen, one of those guys could significantly improve our team and won't cost a fortune to obtain. 

Tyson Barrie's got skillz too. We should call up Dmac and send him to work over Claude in Joe Sakic's living room until he caves and gives us Tyson for nada.

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2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Exactly.

There's huge grey area around who is and who isn't a cornerstone guy anyway, and to be fair we could desperately use any one of the guys you listed.

I guess the one nice thing about rebuilding a defense group is that you just need to find the one gem. All it takes is one pick/trade/signing. Your 2D doesn't necessarily need to be a really high-end player, he just needs to complement the #1 guy and at least keep his head above water against top talent. 3-6 should fall into place pretty naturally...provided you have the 1D.

I feel it's different with forwards. I feel like you should expect rebuilding a forward group to take a longer time because at bare minimum you need two gems: a really good 1C and a really good 1W, neither of which is easy to come by. It's taken us five years of first-round selections, but it's looking like we more or less have those foundational forward pieces -- plus some good depth -- in place. And while it's true that we've gone decades without finding a 1D, it only takes one pick/trade/signing. And I'd say we're overdue for some good fortune on that front. Maybe we find that gem in the next draft. Maybe the one after that. (Maybe it's Hronek or Cholowski? Doubtful. But then, defensemen are basically a f***ing crapshoot.)

Realistically, I'd say we're at least two years away from being a serious playoff team. But any number of things can happen in just one year.

Wings fans should be pretty damn HYPE!'d about our young forwards and next year's draft and the very real possibility that Holland is going to have a ton of cap space to work with next summer. Personally, I'm way more pumped for the 2018-19 season than I was for the 2017-18 season. Like @solarion said, the Wings are definitely moving in the right direction.

Edited by Dabura

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I would do this:

 

1) Trade for Phil Kessel.

Love him, hate him, whatever.  He's one of the 4 things we are sorely missing, and he's available.  I don't know if the rumors are true (I find it hard to believe Pittsburgh would ship him out after the great season he just had), but if we have a chance to get a proven first line, RIGHT HANDED sniper, we should take it.  Mantha + Hronek + 2020 2nd.

 

2) Sign and Trade for Erik Karlsson.

Same reasoning as as Kessel.  Get him to sign his extension for max years and max pay.  Give up whatever it takes to get him.  We have to have this guy to compete.  Green (1/2 salary retained) + Cholowski + Nyquist + Rasmussen + 1st in 2019 + 3rd in 2019.

 

3) Trade Abdelkader, Nielsen, DeKeyser, and Ericsson.  These salaries CANNOT be on this team.  These guys are literally complete poison to this rebuild.  They have way too little firepower for the it respective caphits.

 

4) Play the Youth.  No more middle aged vets grabbing 15 minutes a night.

 

5) Tank in 2018-19.  We need Jack Hughes.  No ifs, and, or buts.

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Gnarly!!! ^^^

We wouldn't have a team left after those trades and we'd have given up some of our best picks to build a new team. lol

Don't see how swapping Mantha, Ras, Cholo, Hronek, Green(+ his ntc), and Nyquist for Kessel and Karlsson makes us better...particularly if we're also giving up a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd over the next two years. You're giving up a huge portion of our youth movement for a 30 year old and a 27 year old.

Not a fan of tanking either. It just creates a toxic environment where guys get used to losing. Detroit shouldn't emulate Edmonton imo.

Edited by solarion

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38 minutes ago, solarion said:

While the established blueline studs seldom move and cost a fortune in assets to obtain when they do move, I think it's a mistake to assume we must aim at those guys. While guys like Trouba, Faulk, OEL, etc are clearly a tier removed from the elite dmen, one of those guys could significantly improve our team and won't cost a fortune to obtain. 

Tyson Barrie's got skillz too. We should call up Dmac and send him to work over Claude in Joe Sakic's living room until he caves and gives us Tyson for nada.

Oh, don't get me wrong -- if I'm Holland, I'm kicking tires all over the place. Tyson Barrie. Oscar Klefbom. Jacob Trouba. Ryan Ellis. Dante Fabbro. Et al. You name it, I want it.

The problem is that high-end young defensemen are ravenously coveted and fiercely protected. So, if you're the Wings, the cost of acquiring even a good-not-great guy like Klefbom is prohibitively high. I mean, I'm not saying there's no chance we could get him, but if the asking price is Mantha or Rasmussen...yeah, that's just not happening at this point in the Wings' rebuild effort. I think I'd be down for, like, Athanasiou-for-Klefbom, but I doubt Chiarelli bites on that. Which is probably just as well, because that swap likely doesn't do a whole lot for us anyway.

If our young forwards really show well this coming season, we'll be in better position to make a big trade. But right now? Nah. We're still in hoard mode, i.e. "Get lots of picks, draft lots of players, see what we have in a year, go from there."

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Agree totally. No reason to push a bad deal/overpayment as the wings aren't nearly ready to compete for a cup again anyway. We've some time to hoard moar prospects while giving the guys in the pipeline now playing time. Plus a bunch of contracts are coming off the books soon so KH will have a lot of cap space to work with in the near future. The timing looks good to me, and with the playoff streak a distant memory I don't think Kenny will shoot us in the foot with a goofy long term deal for someone that doesn't fit long term.

Still though...Carolina has too many Dmen...they should have to share Faulk with us.  

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52 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I guess the one nice thing about rebuilding a defense group is that you just need to find the one gem. All it takes is one pick/trade/signing. Your 2D doesn't necessarily need to be a really high-end player, he just needs to complement the #1 guy and at least keep his head above water against top talent. 3-6 should fall into place pretty naturally...provided you have the 1D.

I feel it's different with forwards. I feel like you should expect rebuilding a forward group to take a longer time because at bare minimum you need two gems: a really good 1C and a really good 1W, neither of which is easy to come by. It's taken us five years of first round selections, but it's looking like we more or less have those foundational forward pieces -- plus some good depth -- in place. And while it's true that we've gone decades without finding a 1D, it only takes one pick/trade/signing. And I'd say we're overdue for some good fortune on that front. Maybe we find that gem in the next draft. Maybe the one after that. (Maybe it's Hronek or Cholowski? Doubtful. But then, defensemen are a basically a f***ing crapshoot.)

Realistically, I'd say we're at least two years away from being a serious playoff team. But any number of things can happen in just one year.

Wings fans should be pretty damn HYPE!'d about our young forwards and next year's draft and the very real possibility that Holland is going to have a ton of cap space to work with next summer. Personally, I'm way more pumped for the 2018-19 season than I was for the 2017-18 season. Like @solarion said, the Wings are definitely moving in the right direction.

We're on the exact same page

With the forwards I prefer to have 2 strong C's down the middle, but whatever works really. We might have the combo already in Larkin and Zadina.

Because of that, I think the next 2 to 3 years will be 1D and goalie hunting. The Detroit D is wide open. I think they'll push for one of those on all fronts. But I get the feeling the team will ride Howard/Bernier until a draft pick develops in net.

Definately, the next 2 years are super exciting to think about. Zetterberg, Kronwall, Nyquist, and possibly even Howard (IMO he'll re-sign at a significant paycut, which helps as well) will likely exit the team this year. Thats what like $20 million right there? Then the next year ALL of our D contracts are up (except Dekyser). It will truly be Holland & co's oppurtunity to shine. Does he re-sign the junk at bargain rates? Do a complete makeover? Would be huge if we can get Hronek, Cholowski, Lindstrom, and McIsaac on the team by then. Could have the oppurtunity to sign a very cheap young D core around Erik Karlsson. I think Dekyser can do a helluva Marc Methot impression.

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3 hours ago, solarion said:

Gnarly!!! ^^^

We wouldn't have a team left after those trades and we'd have given up some of our best picks to build a new team. lol

Don't see how swapping Mantha, Ras, Cholo, Hronek, Green(+ his ntc), and Nyquist for Kessel and Karlsson makes us better...particularly if we're also giving up a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd over the next two years. You're giving up a huge portion of our youth movement for a 30 year old and a 27 year old.

Not a fan of tanking either. It just creates a toxic environment where guys get used to losing. Detroit shouldn't emulate Edmonton imo.

Kessel-Larkin-Zadina

Athanasiou-Hughes-Bertuzzi

Frk-Veleno-Svechnikov

Glendening-Helm-Smith

Turgeon/Berggren/Holmstrom

 

Karlsson-McIsaac

Jensen-Hicketts

Regula-Setkov

 

Larsson

Petruzzelli

 

Gonna need to work on the D, but that forward group looks cherry.

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1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Kessel-Larkin-Zadina

Athanasiou-Hughes-Bertuzzi

Frk-Veleno-Svechnikov

Glendening-Helm-Smith

Turgeon/Berggren/Holmstrom

 

Karlsson-McIsaac

Jensen-Hicketts

Regula-Setkov

 

Larsson

Petruzzelli

 

Gonna need to work on the D, but that forward group looks cherry.

Doesn't hurt that you gave away our 2019 1st to get Karlsson, but we won the lottery and drafted Hughes anyway. ;p

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1 hour ago, solarion said:

Doesn't hurt that you gave away our 2019 1st to get Karlsson, but we won the lottery and drafted Hughes anyway. ;p

Annnnnd that's why I'm an idiot.  Good catch.  Need to make that 2021 first.

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