2018 Prospects Watch

[kipwinger 8,492]

1 hour ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Alright alright. I give. Totally wasn't trying to jurco you around. I was just trying to rekindl some decent debate on here. I think you guys just smithed my point a little. I really am pulkining for Veleno to do well. I was just sheanan silly. Rock n' Sproul boys. Rock n' Sproul.

Isn't knee-jerk undervaluing prospects and players just as intellectually lazy as knee-jerk overvaluing them?

If you think the odds are that Veleno will end up like Sheahan, Smith, Jurco, Pulkkinen, or Sproul why not explain your rationale?  Your current reasoning that "Veleno won't be that good because other guys weren't good in the past" seems too trite for someone clever enough to be meta while also being incendiary. Step your game up...like Joe Veleno has.

Edited December 14, 2018 by kipwinger

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

16 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Isn't knee-jerk undervaluing prospects and players just as intellectually lazy as knee-jerk overvaluing them?

If you think the odds are that Veleno will end up like Sheahan, Smith, Jurco, Pulkkinen, or Sproul why not explain your rationale?  Your current reasoning that "Veleno won't be that good because other guys weren't good in the past" seems too trite for someone clever enough to be meta while also being incendiary. Step your game up...like Joe Veleno has.

I'm not undervaluing Veleno at all. This whole thing started with a joke about his stupid shootout goal in a training camp for a team he probably won't make - which his biggest supporters here agree with by the way. THEN I asked a legit question which no one could answer: "why did he slide so hard in the draft" 

ANYWAY you and @krsmith17 were both wrong about Rasmussen so why should I listen to either of you on this? 

 

[kipwinger 8,492]

Just now, The 91 of Ryans said:

I'm not undervaluing Veleno at all. This whole thing started with a joke about his stupid shootout goal in a training camp for a team he probably won't make - which his biggest supporters here agree with by the way. THEN I asked a legit question which no one could answer: "why did he slide so hard in the draft" 

ANYWAY you and @krsmith17 were both wrong about Rasmussen so why should I listen to either of you on this? 

 

Didn't suggest that you should listen to me. I also have no idea why he slid on draft day. I guess my question would be, what does his draft position have to do with anything?  You're not dumb, so surely you'll agree that players outperform their draft positions all the time.  So the bigger questions are, does Joe Veleno have the necessary skills to be one of those players?  And, based on his performance since the draft is there any reason to believe he's already moving in that direction.  I think the answer to both questions is "yes". 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

Didn't suggest that you should listen to me. I also have no idea why he slid on draft day. I guess my question would be, what does his draft position have to do with anything?  You're not dumb, so surely you'll agree that players outperform their draft positions all the time.  So the bigger questions are, does Joe Veleno have the necessary skills to be one of those players?  And, based on his performance since the draft is there any reason to believe he's already moving in that direction.  I think the answer to both questions is "yes". 

Sure there's reason to believe he'll outperform his draft position. There's also reason to believe that 2/3rds of the league's amateur scouts, who had probably seen him a lot, obviously had doubts about his ability to translate success in the Q to the pros. I know he's been ripping it up right now post-draft, so we'll see. My point is that we'll see. But I suppose I should stop being a jerk and just let everyone enjoy his shootout goal in that WJC training camp exhibition game. And I really don't need to know anyone's thoughts on why he slid in the draft. 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

52 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Ooh I get it now... Because some once highly regarded prospects flamed out, that means we can't or shouldn't get excited about any high end prospects again... The ol' frankgrimes mentality... Never have high expectations and you'll never be disappointed... err you'll be pleasantly surprised or some s***... 

Veleno is not Jurco or Pulkkinen or any of those other bums. Veleno is a legit high end prospect. I think he's a 2C with 1C potential. The biggest thing that separates him from any of the guys you mentioned above... inner drive. He works his ass off and always wants to find ways to improve his game... Not to mention, he's an elite skater, and a very good puck handler and passer. 

1. Don't ever compare me to frank

2. Hearing you call Jurco a bum now after suffering through all the hype-smoke you blew up hizzazzz from his draft year until they shipped him off to Chicago? This, my friend, should serve as your cautionary tale. 

[kipwinger 8,492]

Look, ask yourself whatever questions you want.  I just think asking "why did he slip to 30" is as pointless as asking "Why did David Pastrnak slip to 25th".  Who knows?  But it's not even that interesting a question.  Scouts and GMs mess up all the time (Exhibit A: Nicklas Lidstrom was drafted in round two).  A more interesting question for smart people like you to ponder is, essentially, "is Veleno different than the guys drafted just before or after him?".  And I think if you, or I, or anybody else thinks we know anything at all about hockey we should be able to answer that question and provide the reasons why we think so.  Then all that's left is to see if we got it right, as you've correctly pointed out. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

26 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

1. Don't ever compare me to frank

2. Hearing you call Jurco a bum now after suffering through all the hype-smoke you blew up hizzazzz from his draft year until they shipped him off to Chicago? This, my friend, should serve as your cautionary tale. 

"Cautionary tale"? What do I have to be cautious about? Being wrong? I don't give a s*** about that. If Veleno flops, you can say your "I told you so"... Good for you bud... Until then, continue being "cautious" about prospects...

It's funny though, I've said numerous times that I think McIsaac will be a top 4 defenseman. For whatever reason, that doesn't bother you. But if I say Veleno will be a top 2 center, that bothers you... because reasons...

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

"Cautionary tale"? What do I have to be cautious about? Being wrong? I don't give a s*** about that. If Veleno flops, you can say your "I told you so"... Good for you bud... Until then, continue being "cautious" about prospects...

It's funny though, I've said numerous times that I think McIsaac will be a top 4 defenseman. For whatever reason, that doesn't bother you. But if I say Veleno will be a top 2 center, that bothers you... because reasons...

If Veleno flops you'll blame the org. for mismanagement. 

I have no interest in telling you "I told you so"

I'm not "cautious" about prospects. I'm just "adult" about them. You know, not overzealous. 

I don't really give a f*** about any of this. But it's clear that slights on Veleno trigger you as much Mantha criticism does. So I shall steer clear of the subject. We seem to agree on plenty of other topics. 

 

 

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

If Veleno flops you'll blame the org. for mismanagement. 

I have no interest in telling you "I told you so"

I'm not "cautious" about prospects. I'm just "adult" about them. You know, not overzealous. 

I don't really give a f*** about any of this. But it's clear that slights on Veleno trigger you as much Mantha criticism does. So I shall steer clear of the subject. We seem to agree on plenty of other topics. 

I will blame the organization if they ask him to become a checker, and play him on the 4th line with scrubs. If they give him every opportunity in the top six and he flames out, so be it.

You can have gripes with Veleno, or Mantha, or whoever you want, just make sure they're legitimate. People saying Mantha is lazy and he sucks, is annoying as s***. Same with people saying that Nyquist sucks. Annoying as s***. People calling Ericsson a pylon. You get the idea... I just hate people hating on players / prospects for no legitimate reason. Or even if there is a reason, completely overblowing it... That's what you're doing with Veleno. And honestly, I think this all has a hell of a lot more to do with Rasmussen than Veleno. Same with your dumb "should have drafted Vilardi" remark any time anyone says anything negative about a prospect.

Again, I hype McIsaac, and you don't say jack s***. I hype Zadina, nothing. Veleno strikes a nerve with you. Whatever. Apparently you don't give a f*** about any of this. Neither do I.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

5 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I will blame the organization if they ask him to become a checker, and play him on the 4th line with scrubs. If they give him every opportunity in the top six and he flames out, so be it.

You can have gripes with Veleno, or Mantha, or whoever you want, just make sure they're legitimate. People saying Mantha is lazy and he sucks, is annoying as s***. Same with people saying that Nyquist sucks. Annoying as s***. People calling Ericsson a pylon. You get the idea... I just hate people hating on players / prospects for no legitimate reason. Or even if there is a reason, completely overblowing it... That's what you're doing with Veleno. And honestly, I think this all has a hell of a lot more to do with Rasmussen than Veleno. Same with your dumb "should have drafted Vilardi" remark any time anyone says anything negative about a prospect.

Again, I hype McIsaac, and you don't say jack s***. I hype Zadina, nothing. Veleno strikes a nerve with you. Whatever. Apparently you don't give a f*** about any of this. Neither do I.

Cool. I'm ready to move on if you are. I'll be going to see Veleno play in January when Drum rolls through. (Just like I did with Mantha - who actually was lazy and sucked that night - and just like I did with Svechnikov - who was great) Maybe I'll wear my Rasmussen Jersey. Anyway I apologize for giving you s*** for getting excited about Veleno.  Don't go to sleep mad. 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

Don't know why Veleno slipped, don't care.

Here were the rankings for Centers just days before the draft:

https://www.nhl.com/coyotes/news/nhlcom-top-10-centers-for-2018-nhl-draft/c-299061848

2. Joseph Veleno, Drummondville (QMJHL)
NHL Central Scouting: No. 8 (North American skaters)

Here is how the draft went down:

Round one[edit]

 

#	Player	Nationality	NHL team	College/junior/club team
1	Rasmus Dahlin (D)	Sweden	Buffalo Sabres	Frolunda HC (SHL)
2	Andrei Svechnikov (RW)	Russia	Carolina Hurricanes	Barrie Colts (OHL)
3	Jesperi Kotkaniemi (C)	Finland	Montreal Canadiens	Assat (Liiga)
4	Brady Tkachuk (LW)	United States	Ottawa Senators	Boston University (Hockey East)
5	Barrett Hayton (C)	Canada	Arizona Coyotes	Sault Ste. Marie Greyhounds(OHL)
6	Filip Zadina (RW)	Czech Republic	Detroit Red Wings	Halifax Mooseheads(QMJHL)
7	Quinn Hughes (D)	United States	Vancouver Canucks	University of Michigan (Big Ten)
8	Adam Boqvist (D)	Sweden	Chicago Blackhawks	Brynas IF (SHL)
9	Vitali Kravtsov (RW)	Russia	New York Rangers	Traktor Chelyabinsk (KHL)
10	Evan Bouchard (D)	Canada	Edmonton Oilers	London Knights (OHL)
11	Oliver Wahlstrom (RW)	United States	New York Islanders	U.S. NTDP (USHL)
12	Noah Dobson (D)	Canada	New York Islanders (from Calgary)1	Acadie–Bathurst Titan(QMJHL)
13	Ty Dellandrea (C)	Canada	Dallas Stars	Flint Firebirds (OHL)
14	Joel Farabee (LW)	United States	Philadelphia Flyers (from St. Louis)2	U.S. NTDP (USHL)
15	Grigori Denisenko (LW)	Russia	Florida Panthers	Lokomotiv Yaroslavl (KHL)
16	Martin Kaut (RW)	Czech Republic	Colorado Avalanche	Dynamo Pardubice (ELH)
17	Ty Smith (D)	Canada	New Jersey Devils	Spokane Chiefs (WHL)
18	Liam Foudy (C)	Canada	Columbus Blue Jackets	London Knights (OHL)
19	Jay O'Brien (C)	United States	Philadelphia Flyers	Thayer Academy Tigers(USHS)
20	Rasmus Kupari (C)	Finland	Los Angeles Kings	Karpat (Liiga)
21	Ryan Merkley (D)	Canada	San Jose Sharks	Guelph Storm (OHL)
22	K'Andre Miller (D)	United States	New York Rangers (from Pittsburgh via Ottawa)3	U.S. NTDP (USHL)
23	Isac Lundestrom (C)	Sweden	Anaheim Ducks	Lulea HF (SHL)
24	Filip Johansson (D)	Sweden	Minnesota Wild	Leksands IF (Allsvenskan)
25	Dominik Bokk (RW)	Germany	St. Louis Blues (from Toronto)4	Vaxjo Lakers (SHL)
26	Jacob Bernard-Docker (D)	Canada	Ottawa Senators (from Boston via NY Rangers)5	Okotoks Oilers (AJHL)
27	Nicolas Beaudin (D)	Canada	Chicago Blackhawks (from Nashville)6	Drummondville Voltigeurs(QMJHL)
28	Nils Lundkvist (D)	Sweden	New York Rangers (from Tampa Bay)7	Lulea HF (SHL)
29	Rasmus Sandin (D)	Sweden	Toronto Maple Leafs (from Winnipeg via St. Louis)8	Sault Ste. Marie Greyhounds (OHL)
30	Joe Veleno (C)	Canada	Detroit Red Wings (from Vegas)9	Drummondville Voltigeurs (QMJHL)
31	Alexander Alexeyev (D)	Russia	Washington Capitals	Red Deer Rebels (WHL)

 

Veleno was the 8th C taken in the draft. He was clearly the 2nd ranked C before the draft. Consensus is that there were many reaches at that position in this draft. Foudy and O'Brien weren't even listed in the top 10 among centers. Hayton, Dellanrea, Kupari, and Lundestrom were all rated lower, but were drafted before Veleno. Why? Who knows? Every article I read post-draft regarded Veleno as a steal at 30, and questioned why some of these guys were drafted before him, because they shouldn't have been. My guess is that since this draft was regarded as a "deep" one, teams felt more inclined to go for "home runs" instead of BPA figuring that even a "reach" would still turn out in the long run. More "boom" potential, less "bust" potential, leads to reaching. That's what happened, nothing more. Reading anything more into it is just pointless. Sometimes players drop. It happens. Doesn't make Veleno less of a prospect for it, nor does it mean we should look at other guys taken before him with any greater potential.

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Cool. I'm ready to move on if you are. I'll be going to see Veleno play in January when Drum rolls through. (Just like I did with Mantha - who actually was lazy and sucked that night - and just like I did with Svechnikov - who was great) Maybe I'll wear my Rasmussen Jersey. Anyway I apologize for giving you s*** for getting excited about Veleno.  Don't go to sleep mad. 

Not mad at all, just confused why you feel the need to give me (or anyone else) s*** for getting excited about Veleno (or any other prospect). This is a Red Wings site. We're all Red Wings fans. I just can't imagine ever s***ing on another fan for getting excited about a player / prospect in this organization. I'm not that high on Berggren, but if anyone else is and they get excited about him, I'm not going to say he sucks every time he's brought up...

I do think that everything should be sunshine and rainbows when we finally start to see some of these higher end prospects entering the system. I may be overly optimistic about the Red Wings at times, but that's just me. I do think whatever your reasoning for s***ing on the Veleno parade is, it's petty, but whatevs, not going to tell you how to fan...

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

"Cautionary tale"? What do I have to be cautious about? Being wrong? I don't give a s*** about that. If Veleno flops, you can say your "I told you so"... Good for you bud... Until then, continue being "cautious" about prospects...

It's funny though, I've said numerous times that I think McIsaac will be a top 4 defenseman. For whatever reason, that doesn't bother you. But if I say Veleno will be a top 2 center, that bothers you... because reasons...

Yah, part of the fun in life is gambling.  I crapped out on Kuznetsov, Kindl, Smith, and Sambrook.  But so what.  Our GM and organization did too.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

45 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Not mad at all, just confused why you feel the need to give me (or anyone else) s*** for getting excited about Veleno (or any other prospect). This is a Red Wings site. We're all Red Wings fans. I just can't imagine ever s***ing on another fan for getting excited about a player / prospect in this organization. I'm not that high on Berggren, but if anyone else is and they get excited about him, I'm not going to say he sucks every time he's brought up...

I do think that everything should be sunshine and rainbows when we finally start to see some of these higher end prospects entering the system. I may be overly optimistic about the Red Wings at times, but that's just me. I do think whatever your reasoning for s***ing on the Veleno parade is, it's petty, but whatevs, not going to tell you how to fan...

He's just jealous of your rep.  He told me he asked Matt to move his +5000 rep from his old account to his new one and got denied.  His saltiness should expire soon, tho.  Don't worry.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

6 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Not mad at all, just confused why you feel the need to give me (or anyone else) s*** for getting excited about Veleno (or any other prospect). This is a Red Wings site. We're all Red Wings fans. I just can't imagine ever s***ing on another fan for getting excited about a player / prospect in this organization. I'm not that high on Berggren, but if anyone else is and they get excited about him, I'm not going to say he sucks every time he's brought up...

I do think that everything should be sunshine and rainbows when we finally start to see some of these higher end prospects entering the system. I may be overly optimistic about the Red Wings at times, but that's just me. I do think whatever your reasoning for s***ing on the Veleno parade is, it's petty, but whatevs, not going to tell you how to fan...

You do it all the time man. Someone chimes in on a prospect and out you come. You might not be as blunt and as much of a jerk as me, but there you are. Christ you even had a bet with that fool about Sambrook (I think).  Sambrook!!!!!! Who the f*** really knows anything about any of our prospects let alone some kid taken in the 5th round. Like you'd know. I can probably tell you, even just from casual observation, who you're "high" on and who you've not. Because you're constantly telling us. Excuse me for saying that you, and others, might be overrating Veleno. Same way I've been calling BS on Mantha being a 30 goal scorer. 

It is a Red Wings site and we're all Red Wings fans (although some members

5 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

He's just jealous of your rep.  He told me he asked Matt to move his +5000 rep from his old account to his new one and got denied.  His saltiness should expire soon, tho.  Don't worry.

seem like bigger fans of themselves than the Wings - but I digress). And believe it or not we are having a hockey discussion here. You hype Joe, call other GMs idiots for not drafting him, and I'm pumping the breaks. It's really all that's going on. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

25 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

You do it all the time man. Someone chimes in on a prospect and out you come. You might not be as blunt and as much of a jerk as me, but there you are. Christ you even had a bet with that fool about Sambrook (I think).  Sambrook!!!!!! Who the f*** really knows anything about any of our prospects let alone some kid taken in the 5th round. Like you'd know. I can probably tell you, even just from casual observation, who you're "high" on and who you've not. Because you're constantly telling us. Excuse me for saying that you, and others, might be overrating Veleno. Same way I've been calling BS on Mantha being a 30 goal scorer. 

It is a Red Wings site and we're all Red Wings fans (although some members seem like bigger fans of themselves than the Wings - but I digress). And believe it or not we are having a hockey discussion here. You hype Joe, call other GMs idiots for not drafting him, and I'm pumping the breaks. It's really all that's going on. 

Yes, I like to discuss our prospects because I follow a lot of them closely. More so a few years ago than I have been lately, but I still watch a good number of Griffins games, as well as junior games involving our prospects. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I'm sure I keep a closer eye on the players in our organization than most.

I have zero issue with you (or anyone else) chiming in on prospects. I'd love to hear it. If you think some of us are over-hyping Veleno, fine. If you think he's a bust, say so. But don't be negative, just to be negative. Like kip said, explain why you think we're over-hyping him. Explain why you're not that high on him. And maybe come up with a better reason than, "because he fell in the draft...". By the way, you're smart enough to realize that me saying "GM's are idiots" is tongue in cheek, aren't you?

Jonas and I made a bet on who would be a better defenseman, Cholowski or Sambrook. I actually liked Sambrook as a prospect and seen him play several times, I just wasn't as high on him as Jonas. I didn't say how much Sambrook sucks every time he was brought up though.

If you think Veleno tops our as a third line center, cool, but don't b**** and moan every time someone gets excited about him ripping up the Q, or scoring a pretty goal.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

38 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Yes, I like to discuss our prospects because I follow a lot of them closely. More so a few years ago than I have been lately, but I still watch a good number of Griffins games, as well as junior games involving our prospects. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I'm sure I keep a closer eye on the players in our organization than most.

I have zero issue with you (or anyone else) chiming in on prospects. I'd love to hear it. If you think some of us are over-hyping Veleno, fine. If you think he's a bust, say so. But don't be negative, just to be negative. Like kip said, explain why you think we're over-hyping him. Explain why you're not that high on him. And maybe come up with a better reason than, "because he fell in the draft...". By the way, you're smart enough to realize that me saying "GM's are idiots" is tongue in cheek, aren't you?

Jonas and I made a bet on who would be a better defenseman, Cholowski or Sambrook. I actually liked Sambrook as a prospect and seen him play several times, I just wasn't as high on him as Jonas. I didn't say how much Sambrook sucks every time he was brought up though.

If you think Veleno tops our as a third line center, cool, but don't b**** and moan every time someone gets excited about him ripping up the Q, or scoring a pretty goal.

I wasn't bitching and moaning. I was laughing. Big diff. And I don't do it every time. Just every now and then. I'm actually pretty even-handed. I don't typically over-hype and I'm not really a hater either. Other than the odd call-out when I think bias or devotion is skewing opinion,  I have zero agenda. There are more polarizing opinions on here than mine, and more emotion-based irrational discussions than this one. 

I never said I wasn't high on Veleno. I merely said that I have my reservations about how good he'll be because part of me believes that a whole s***-ton of NHL scouts saw something in his game that they didn't see translating well to the pro level. How hard is that to understand? I also said that (because of this) maybe you guys are hyping him too much. How hard is this to understand? It's not, right? f***, I'm probably wrong. At least it seems like my opinion is very unpopular based on the responses in this thread. You made your point several times. Now you're just dragging this out because you're all poopy that I was giving you a hard time. 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2018 by The 91 of Ryans
tori and kelsey

[krsmith17 7,191]

16 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I wasn't bitching and moaning. I was laughing. Big diff. And I don't do it every time. Just every now and then. I'm actually pretty even-handed. I don't typically over-hype and I'm not really a hater either. Other than the odd call-out when I think bias or devotion is skewing opinion,  I have zero agenda. There are more polarizing opinions on here than mine, and more emotion-based irrational discussions than this one. 

I never said I wasn't high on Veleno. I merely said that I have my reservations about how good he'll be because part of me believes that a whole s***-ton of NHL scouts saw something in his game that they didn't see translating well to the pro level. How hard is that to understand? I also said that (because of this) maybe you guys are hyping him too much. How hard is this to understand? It's not, right? f***, I'm probably wrong. At least it seems like my opinion is very unpopular based on the responses in this thread. You made your point several times. Now you're just dragging this out because you're all poopy that I was giving you a hard time.

A whole s***-ton of NHL scouts get it wrong with at least one prospect in every single draft. How hard is that to understand? Why can't it be Veleno this year? I said the day he was drafted that it was the steal of the draft. I maintain that.

It takes two to "drag this out", but I'll just ask one last (two-part) question... Where do you project Veleno in a few years? Do you think he tops out as a 3C like some of the commentators were saying on draft day?

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

6 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

A whole s***-ton of NHL scouts get it wrong with at least one prospect in every single draft. How hard is that to understand? Why can't it be Veleno this year? I said the day he was drafted that it was the steal of the draft. I maintain that.

It takes two to "drag this out", but I'll just ask one last (two-part) question... Where do you project Veleno in a few years? Do you think he tops out as a 3C like some of the commentators were saying on draft day?

It could be Veleno sure. But maybe it isn't? I'm in the "I'm don't know the answer to this camp". You seem to be in the "I've made up my mind about this camp"

Unlike you guys I'm not a scout or an expert on prospects so I don't know where Veleno "tops out". If I had to make something up or manifest some reality or narrative to exist in, from a fan perspective, (which no one around here ever does eh?) I'd say to me he looks like a defensively responsible center with good play-making upside with 2C ceiling, 4C  floor. Just like I'm no scout, I'm also no statistician. But I'd say the average between 2 and 4 is 3 no? Are commentators really uniformed idiots if they think that's what he projects? A 3rd line center in the NHL? And would that even be so bad? He'd probably end up being an above-average 3C who is hopefully slotted there because Larkin and Hughes/Cozens etc are 1 and 2. 

Also, with regards to the bolded part: the longer you keep saying that, the harder it's going to be to admit that you were wrong you know. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

It could be Veleno sure. But maybe it isn't? I'm in the "I'm don't know the answer to this camp". You seem to be in the "I've made up my mind about this camp"

Unlike you guys I'm not a scout or an expert on prospects so I don't know where Veleno "tops out". If I had to make something up or manifest some reality or narrative to exist in, from a fan perspective, (which no one around here ever does eh?) I'd say to me he looks like a defensively responsible center with good play-making upside with 2C ceiling, 4C  floor. Just like I'm no scout, I'm also no statistician. But I'd say the average between 2 and 4 is 3 no? Are commentators really uniformed idiots if they think that's what he projects? A 3rd line center in the NHL? And would that even be so bad? He'd probably end up being an above-average 3C who is hopefully slotted there because Larkin and Hughes/Cozens etc are 1 and 2. 

Also, with regards to the bolded part: the longer you keep saying that, the harder it's going to be to admit that you were wrong you know. 

No you're right. We shouldn't discuss or form opinions on these prospects, because we aren't experts. Veleno could be anywhere from a number one center to a complete bust. McIsaac could be anywhere from a number one defenseman to a complete bust. What do we know? Nothing. We only observe the game. We don't study the game.

Regarding the bold... How do you know that? You're not an expert. Are you?

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

9 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

No you're right. We shouldn't discuss or form opinions on these prospects, because we aren't experts. Veleno could be anywhere from a number one center to a complete bust. McIsaac could be anywhere from a number one defenseman to a complete bust. What do we know? Nothing. We only observe the game. We don't study the game.

Regarding the bold... How do you know that? You're not an expert. Are you?

Uhhhhhhhh you and Kip basically begged me to make an assessment on Veleno. I reluctantly did so. And made this pretty clear. So nice try. 

Don't worry. You're still the Craig Button around these parts. I won't be challenging you for this role. Keep reaching for the stars man. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

19 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Uhhhhhhhh you and Kip basically begged me to make an assessment on Veleno. I reluctantly did so. And made this pretty clear. So nice try. 

Don't worry. You're still the Craig Button around these parts. I won't be challenging you for this role. Keep reaching for the stars man. 

I had another longish response typed out, but it's not even worth it. I'm done with this. 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I had another longish response typed out, but it's not even worth it. I'm done with this. 

Finally

[LeftWinger 4,934]

17 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Look, ask yourself whatever questions you want.  I just think asking "why did he slip to 30" is as pointless as asking "Why did David Pastrnak slip to 25th".  Who knows?  But it's not even that interesting a question.  Scouts and GMs mess up all the time (Exhibit A: Nicklas Lidstrom was drafted in round two).  A more interesting question for smart people like you to ponder is, essentially, "is Veleno different than the guys drafted just before or after him?".  And I think if you, or I, or anybody else thinks we know anything at all about hockey we should be able to answer that question and provide the reasons why we think so.  Then all that's left is to see if we got it right, as you've correctly pointed out. 

Nah, that bum was drafted in the THIRD round.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]