2019 Draft

[krsmith17 7,191]

9 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

"He young, you dumb"

Got it.

No doubt he was one of the youngest players in the league. The Wings had to appeal to the league to get him the AHL at all. I like that Zadina's age is suddenly of interest now though.

The fact that he was only 30th in rookie scoring is even more deflating.

I have yet to be told how this makes a huge a difference.

Not really. Zadina was "rushed" just as quickly as Larkin was. In fact at the date of Zadina's first game as a Red Wing he was almost the exact same age that Larkin was during his first game as a Red Wing.

The difference being, I think Larkin would have blown the wheels off the AHL if he was sent down after 9 games. In just the 6 AHL playoff games he was in in his first year he had 3 goals and 5 points. Disagree if you like.

Age matters. Draft year matters. Context matters for both. Neither are the end all, be all.

"Only 30th in rookie scoring". Congratulations to all the 20-23 year olds that managed to outscore a teenager...

You keep comparing Zadina to Larkin as if I'm saying that Zadina is as good or better than Larkin or something... Larkin likely would have outscored Zadina if he had played in the AHL 4 years ago. What's your point? Does any of this mean that Zadina won't be as good as Larkin? Does it mean that Zadina will be a bust?

The only reason any of this is being discussed right now is because you and mackel started calling Zadina a bust. And I'm not sure which is worse... mackel calling him a bust because he watched him a few times in his draft year in Halifax, or you calling him a bust because he's not as good as Larkin was at the same age...

[toby91_ca 620]

17 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Terrible example or not, you're missing my point.

If I draft a player in 2019 who will be turning 18 on 9/15/2019, and then draft a player in 2020 who already turned 18 on 9/16/2019. Are they really at different stages of their life/career because they were in different draft classes? IMO, no. And I would posture that the player born 9/16/2019 should arguably be more NHL ready at the time of his selection.

Not missing your point at all.  Age is not the major factor here.  I guarantee you, GMs, coaches, etc. do not look at age to determine readiness.  You need to consider experience and at what level of hockey.  The better comparison is really to look at where a player has progressed since being drafted. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

18 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

You keep comparing Zadina to Larkin as if I'm saying that Zadina is as good or better than Larkin or something... Larkin likely would have outscored Zadina if he had played in the AHL 4 years ago. What's your point? Does any of this mean that Zadina won't be as good as Larkin? Does it mean that Zadina will be a bust?

I thought we both agreed Larkin was a good measuring stick. If he is, then Zadina is behind where Larkin was at the same age.

18 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

The only reason any of this is being discussed right now is because you and mackel started calling Zadina a bust. And I'm not sure which is worse... mackel calling him a bust because he watched him a few times in his draft year in Halifax, or you calling him a bust because he's not as good as Larkin was at the same age...

I mean by all means, keep reverting back to this straw man if that's all you have to discredit my POV. You know exactly where I stand on Zadina's floor and cieling.

17 minutes ago, toby91_ca said:

Not missing your point at all.  Age is not the major factor here.  I guarantee you, GMs, coaches, etc. do not look at age to determine readiness.  You need to consider experience and at what level of hockey.  The better comparison is really to look at where a player has progressed since being drafted. 

You guarantee me eh?

Lets look at Larkin and Zadina's stints after their first 9 NHL games. At this point they are almost the exact same age and both have 9 NHL games under their belts.

Zadina gets sent down and scored 4 pts in 14 games to close the AHL regular season. He is -7 over those 14 games.
Larkin remains in the NHL and scores 10 pts in his next 14 games and is +5 over those 14 games.

Edited May 16, 2019 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[krsmith17 7,191]

24 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I thought we both agreed Larkin was a good measuring stick. If he is, then Zadina is behind where Larkin was at the same age.

What is your point??? Not a single person is arguing this... Zadina is behind where Larkin was at the same age does not equal Zadina is / will be a bust...

[krsmith17 7,191]

32 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I mean by all means, keep reverting back to this straw man if that's all you have to discredit my POV. You know exactly where I stand on Zadina's floor and cieling.

No I don't actually... What would you say Zadina's floor and ceiling are in regards to point totals? And what would you say the likelihood is that he only reaches his floor or reaches his ceiling?

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

How is Zadina behind Larkin?

Year 1 after draft, Larkin had ZERO NFL experience.  Zadina has preseason and 9 NHL games experience after 1 year. 

Z-Pinch is actually ahead of Larkin as of now. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

5 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

How is Zadina behind Larkin?

Year 1 after draft, Larkin had ZERO NFL experience.  Zadina has preseason and 9 NHL games experience after 1 year. 

Z-Pinch is actually ahead of Larkin as of now. 

He's certainly no Gerry James...

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

Just now, krsmith17 said:

He's certainly no Gerry James...

Ha.  Autocorrect.  Damn it!

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

What is your point??? Not a single person is arguing this... Zadina is behind where Larkin was at the same age does not equal Zadina is / will be a bust...

I established a premise

You agreed to the premise:

16 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Larkin was a steal in his draft. If there were a 2014 re-draft, he would be a top 5, possibly top 3 pick. In saying that, I agree that Larkin should be used as somewhat of a measuring stick for our future stars.

The rest is deductive reasoning from said premise to reach the conclusion:

If Larkin is a good measuring stick for the development/talent for Top 5 ranked prospects, and Zadina is not measuring up to where Larkin was at the same age, therefore Zadina had a disappointing season for a Top 5 prospect

55 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

No I don't actually... What would you say Zadina's floor and ceiling are in regards to point totals? And what would you say the likelihood is that he only reaches his floor or reaches his ceiling?

I said this in response to you in this very thread:

On 5/14/2019 at 9:22 AM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I think Zadina will be about as good as Tatar or Nyquist was. Contributor, but not someone you build a team around.

A 50 to 60 point winger, and I think he has a very good shot of hitting either of those numbers playing in our top 6.

[krsmith17 7,191]

14 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

If Larkin is a good measuring stick for the development/talent for Top 5 ranked prospects, and Zadina is not measuring up to where Larkin was at the same age, therefore Zadina had a disappointing season for a Top 5 prospect

Larkin is a great measuring stick for what we want our star players to *eventually* become. Zadina not being at that level yet means absolutely nothing in regards to where he projects to be in 2-3 years from now.

AGAIN, Zadina having a disappointing season as a first year pro, younger than all his peers, is NOT equal to Zadina is / will be a bust. Zadina had a disappointing season. So f***ing what?

28 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

A 50 to 60 point winger, and I think he has a very good shot of hitting either of those numbers playing in our top 6.

So is that his floor or ceiling? If you're saying it's his floor, I agree. If you're saying it's his ceiling, I think you're way off on your projection.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

Why is everyone already calling zadina a bust? Last I checked I guess you can “technically” say he’s ahead of zetterberg and datsyuk cause  those guys started at 22-23 Doesn’t  mean anything at this point that he had like 3 pts in 9 games and started isnt in the nhl full time 

Don’t forget that moron behind the bench the kids have to deal with,if zadina becomes a consistent 30 goal guy every year I’ll be ok with it. Either it’s  way too soon to give up on the kid 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Larkin is a great measuring stick for what we want our star players to *eventually* become. Zadina not being at that level yet means absolutely nothing in regards to where he projects to be in 2-3 years from now.

AGAIN, Zadina having a disappointing season as a first year pro, younger than all his peers, is NOT equal to Zadina is / will be a bust. Zadina had a disappointing season. So f***ing what?

So it means he had a disappointing first season.

I'm not in the habit of sticking my head in the sand when a player has a bad season relative to expectations just because he might one day be better. And I don't think it's as "dumb" or "******* stupid" as some of you seem to think it is to express concern about it.

35 pts and -17 in the AHL does not meet the standards I have for a supposed future star of this team, even in his first season. Simple as that. I'm expecting a much bigger second season out of him. If he can make the team and contribute 30-50 pts next season I would be happy, or if he can dominate the AHL and put up like 50-70 pts I'd feel better.

He's got to get his plus/minus up to. It's not my primary concern, but his is shockingly bad. By far the worst in that stat on the team. 1257 players played in the AHL last year. Zadina ranked 1224 in plus/minus. Yikes.

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

So is that his floor or ceiling? If you're saying it's his floor, I agree. If you're saying it's his ceiling, I think you're way off on your projection.

No that's what I think is likely based on what I've seen so far.

His floor is idk, 30 pt winger? But I think that's unlikley
His ceiling is probably like 80 pts... at least that's what I thought when we drafted him.

Edited May 16, 2019 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Why is everyone already calling zadina a bust? Last I checked I guess you can “technically” say he’s ahead of zetterberg and datsyuk cause  those guys started at 22-23 Doesn’t  mean anything at this point that he had like 3 pts in 9 games and started isnt in the nhl full time 

Don’t forget that moron behind the bench the kids have to deal with,if zadina becomes a consistent 30 goal guy every year I’ll be ok with it. Either it’s  way too soon to give up on the kid 

Zadina is lazy and he busts

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

12 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Zadina is lazy and he busts

If he’s a bust Rasmussen is the next pat Falloon ... fa who? Exactly 

[krsmith17 7,191]

32 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

So it means he had a disappointing first season.

I'm not in the habit of sticking my head in the sand when a player has a bad season relative to expectations just because he might one day be better. And I don't think it's as "dumb" or "******* stupid" as some of you seem to think it is to express concern about it.

35 pts and -17 in the AHL does meet the standards I have for a supposed future star of this team, even in his first season. Simple as that. I'm expecting a much bigger second season out of him. If he can make the team and contribute 30-50 pts next season I would be happy, or if he can dominate the AHL and put up like 50-70 pts I'd feel better.

He's got to get his plus/minus up to. It's not my primary concern, but his is shockingly bad. By far the worst in that stat on the team. 1257 players played in the AHL last year. Zadina ranked 1224 in plus/minus. Yikes.

Express concern. Say he hasn't met expectations. Say he had a bad season. Say he's behind where Larkin was at the same age. All of that is fine and no one is disagreeing... What myself and others are disagreeing with you (and mackel) on, is calling him a bust as a teenager after ONE f***ing season in the pros... It is "dumb" and "f***ing stupid"...

You then go on to say that you're "expecting a much bigger second season out of him"... Why would you be "expecting" anything out of him, if you already consider him a "bust"?

32 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

No that's what I think is likely based on what I've seen so far.

His floor is idk, 30 pt winger? But I think that's unlikley
His ceiling is probably like 80 pts... at least that's what I thought when we drafted him.

Fair enough. I'm not too far off those numbers, although I'd say his floor is a little higher. I also think he's much more likely to come closer to his ceiling than floor.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

If he’s a bust Rasmussen is the next pat Falloon ... fa who? Exactly 

Hey I'm not thrilled about Rasmussen's season either. Although if Zadina potted 18 pts playing 62 games on the 4th line this season, I would have been ok with it TBH. I think Rasmussen would have been a force playing top 6 minutes in the AHL, and I kinda hope he gets put there to start the season.

TLDR: Shoulda took Brannstrom.

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

Express concern. Say he hasn't met expectations. Say he had a bad season. Say he's behind where Larkin was at the same age. All of that is fine and no one is disagreeing... What myself and others are disagreeing with you (and mackel) on, is calling him a bust as a teenager after ONE f***ing season in the pros... It is "dumb" and "f***ing stupid"...

You then go on to say that you're "expecting a much bigger second season out of him"... Why would you be "expecting" anything out of him, if you already consider him a "bust"

You keep going back to the same straw man well, even though there's no water in it lol

You know I don't actually think he's busted... why play these silly games?

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Tag Bertuzzi is eligible to be drafted this year.

9 pts in 30 games in the OHL this year.

Maybe we can waste our 2nd rounder on him like we did with Tyler?

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

18 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Hey I'm not thrilled about Rasmussen's season either. Although if Zadina potted 18 pts playing 62 games on the 4th line this season, I would have been ok with it TBH. I think Rasmussen would have been a force playing top 6 minutes in the AHL, and I kinda hope he gets put there to start the season.

TLDR: Shoulda took Brannstrom.

You keep going back to the same straw man well, even though there's no water in it lol

You know I don't actually think he's busted... why play these silly games?

 

Why’s it ok if zadina puts up same numbers on the 4th line Rasmussen did?

well I don’t think I’m wrong on this one even if it wasn’t brannstrom we could of had cal Foote or valimaki when the most pressing need was a d since lidstrom left I just feel like we went for the guy with the size

 

we play these silly games cause there’s nothing else to talk about now that the redwings are Netflix and chilling and we need to torture ourselves 

7 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Tag Bertuzzi is eligible to be drafted this year.

9 pts in 30 games in the OHL this year.

Maybe we can waste our 2nd rounder on him like we did with Tyler?

Didn’t turn out to be a waste in tyler’s Case , Don’t know much about him but if he can bring same grit and stuff Bert can even with less production I’d take a gamble at him in the 5-7 range 

[krsmith17 7,191]

18 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You keep going back to the same straw man well, even though there's no water in it lol

You know I don't actually think he's busted... why play these silly games?

No strawman here. You're the one that said he was a bust...

CRL: "Zadina is a bust".

*pages of debating whether or not Zadina is a bust*

CRL: "You know I don't actually think he's busted"...

... Okay.

[SwedeLundin77 460]

Interesting... this topic is 2019 Draft.... yet there is a WHOLE lot of talk about the 2018 Draft... Get back on the topic already. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

53 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Why’s it ok if zadina puts up same numbers on the 4th line Rasmussen did?

To be clear I would have been fine with either Ras or Zadina putting up those numbers in that role this year.

What I'm not thrilled about is putting a young player in that role. Would have preferred to see Ras in GR getting more than 12 min a night.

 

48 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

No strawman here. You're the one that said he was a bust...

CRL: "Zadina is a bust".

*pages of debating whether or not Zadina is a bust*

CRL: "You know I don't actually think he's busted"...

... Okay.

Hmmm that's a nice quote you found, where did you pull it from?

Was it from here?

On 10/29/2018 at 3:41 PM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Mantha, bust

Rasmussen, bust

Zadina, bust

But I'm sure Hughes will be good

Maybe here?

On 11/20/2018 at 10:18 PM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I'm kinda with you to be perfectly honest. Kid rode a hot streak into the draft. His peers in the top 5 of his draft class are massively outperforming him besides Barret Hayton (lmao)

Zadina's foot speed is not great. His decision making in the cycle is questionable. And his defense is nothing to be admired. However his ability to beat defenders with his stick skills and beat goalies with his shot are very good. He needs to adapt and learn to do those things at a new speed. The pro speed. Improving his foot work and adding weight would be huge for him. And he's only 18 or whatever so he should be able to accomplish this.

My primary concern is the decision making. His ability/instincts to beat you one on one are superb, but his ability to see the ice and anticipate creative plays leaves me wanting. And this is a team sport. He needs to improve that, which i think is harder to improve than the aforementioned skills. Maybe when he learns our systems better this will improve (I hope).

My biggest fear is that he is a trigger-man only (one-dimensional) and will not be able to drive play on his own.

Right now, for me, he his Hudler+

If he can be a bigger stronger Hudler who does not fear the dirty areas or have off ice issues, we got a good player on our hands. I think he maxes out at Hossa and bottoms out at Hudler during his Detroit tenure. Obviously Hudler during Detroit tenure would be a slight disappointment based on his draft position, but still a valuable player.

18 is young, lets see how he goes. Cholowski also struggled after being drafted.

No no, maybe this one?

On 11/21/2018 at 8:23 AM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Ok the vast majority of what I wrote was about how he plays. Do you have anything to say about that, or are you just gonna try blow up a minor point in my post?

Zadina was at one point ranked #1 overall. No one expected him to be available at 6 at the draft, not even the Wings. The hype all summer was he could possibly make the team straight out the gate, or at least light up the AHL. He didn't make the team and he's not lighting up the AHL, so that's the "disappointment" premise I'm operating under. I think we can all acknowledge that and be big boys and girls about it and move forward.

Have you watched him play? Let me know what you think of his play. I was pretty generous in my assessment of him. Didn't call him a bust, said he bottoms out at Hudler level. I used Hudler because I think they have slightly similar qualities as wingers and I think his floor is around a 50 to 60 pt player... Do you disagree?

Or was it from the last 5+ pages where I described a player who I think is Tatar/Nyquist level? Odd thing for a bust to be...

 

3 minutes ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

Interesting... this topic is 2019 Draft.... yet there is a WHOLE lot of talk about the 2018 Draft... Get back on the topic already. 

No

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

18 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

To be clear I would have been fine with either Ras or Zadina putting up those numbers in that role this year.

What I'm not thrilled about is putting a young player in that role. Would have preferred to see Ras in GR getting more than 12 min a night.

 

Hmmm that's a nice quote you found, where did you pull it from?

Was it from here?

Maybe here?

No no, maybe this one?

Or was it from the last 5+ pages where I described a player who I think is Tatar/Nyquist level? Odd thing for a bust to be...

 

No

Agreed which is why I think Rasmussen will be in Grand Rapids this season at least to start and if he just dominates the league maybe he gets called up midway if not ... busted 

if both Rasmussen and zadina are in the ahl next season hopefully they play top 6 and not these puempels and ahl career guys , if zadina starts down I’d like to see him with veleno top line and Rasmussen second and ppl with them , Grand Rapids will actually be worth watching this season 

We get griffins pass and we share among 12 ppl?

24 minutes ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

Interesting... this topic is 2019 Draft.... yet there is a WHOLE lot of talk about the 2018 Draft... Get back on the topic already. 

I like kakko but we don’t get kakko 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

20 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

We get griffins pass and we share among 12 ppl?

I'll pass. I get the feeling Zadina and Rasmussen will get called up relatively quickly next season. Maybe we even see a little Joe Veleno in Detroit too.

26 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

I like kakko but we don’t get kakko 

No way Hughes is better

[mackel 679]

6 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

No I don't actually... What would you say Zadina's floor and ceiling are in regards to point totals? And what would you say the likelihood is that he only reaches his floor or reaches his ceiling?

Floor:  Helm Prime

Ceiling:  Nyquist Prime

Even if he reaches what I consider his ceiling their would have been better options at 6.

20 hours ago, Wheelchairsuperhero said:

You're a legendary troll, the whole victim thing you got going on right now is good stuff.

How so? You think Zadina's a bust after one season, that's stupid. 

Its not stupid it's a reasonable concern based on a less than stellar season (that's a kind description).  Calling someone stupid because you don't agree with them is childish.

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Hmmm that's a nice quote you found, where did you pull it from?

Or was it from the last 5+ pages where I described a player who I think is Tatar/Nyquist level? Odd thing for a bust to be...

Okay, so you don't think Zadina is destined to be a bust? Good talk...