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2019 Draft

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On 5/18/2019 at 2:32 PM, mackel said:

 

I saw alot of Zadina in Jr.  I observed a one dimensional player who sacrificed defence and his responsibilities defensively for offence. 

Interesting. You seen the exact opposite of pretty much every amateur scout...

On 5/18/2019 at 2:32 PM, mackel said:

I did not think his game would translate well to the pro leagues.  I stand by that assessment 100% and his numbers this year back that up.

Except that his numbers were very good for a teenager playing his first year pro, coming from juniors...

26 minutes ago, mackel said:

Dobson is a playing quite well and making a push for back to back Mem cups.

If Zadina remained in juniors, he too would be pushing for a Memorial Cup with Halifax, and likely be one of the best players in the league.

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15 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Interesting. You seen the exact opposite of pretty much every amateur scout...

Except that his numbers were very good for a teenager playing his first year pro, coming from juniors...

If Zadina remained in juniors, he too would be pushing for a Memorial Cup with Halifax, and likely be one of the best players in the league.

Don't feed the TROLL!!!

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34 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Don't feed the TROLL!!!

@Jonas Mahonas can't you see I'm the one being attacked and trolled because I'm exercising some independent thought...

Every time the discussion settles down a snide remark from the peanut gallery causes it to flare back up.  I'm more than content to let time prove me right and buy a round of "I told you sos' " later.

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4 hours ago, mackel said:

@Jonas Mahonas can't you see I'm the one being attacked and trolled because I'm exercising some independent thought...

Every time the discussion settles down a snide remark from the peanut gallery causes it to flare back up.  I'm more than content to let time prove me right and buy a round of "I told you sos' " later.

Great.  We are happy for you.  

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4 hours ago, mackel said:

@Jonas Mahonas can't you see I'm the one being attacked and trolled because I'm exercising some independent thought...

Every time the discussion settles down a snide remark from the peanut gallery causes it to flare back up.  I'm more than content to let time prove me right and buy a round of "I told you sos' " later.

Zagina

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14 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Anybody at all concerned that in his entire career as a general manager Steve Yzerman never drafted a defenseman who was worth a damn?

The thought has crossed my mind, yeah.

He's been pretty good about landing solid defensemen through trades tho. That's one reason why I'm kinda content to see us just keep loading up at forward.

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4 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Anybody at all concerned that in his entire career as a general manager Steve Yzerman never drafted a defenseman who was worth a damn?

Lucky for him he was handed a franchise D in Hedman at Tampa and in Hronek at his current team. 

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12 hours ago, mackel said:

Do you even read a post before bitching about it?  I said at the time of the draft I felt they should draft a D.  They would have drafted the one they ranked highest of the D available.  I'd have gone Dobson/Bouchard over Hughes (personally) that much you got right.  Dobson is a playing quite well and making a push for back to back Mem cups.  I've not paid any attention to Hughes or Bouchard since the draft.

Hull, Marner and Kucherov are star players (wingers)... that's the link (clearly you missed it)... I don't think Zadina will be a star winger... I think he'll be a serviceable top 6/9 winger.  

Do you? I asked you why they aren't considered busts relative to their draft position. Neither of them look to be a better pick at this point in time. But go on, keep sidestepping. 

Also everything I said was true, I was just too lazy to quote the posts you said them in. Jared McIsaac had a better season than Dobson btw. The only argument to be made for drafting someone else over Zadina at this point in time is Hughes, and you thought that would be a "huge mistake."

The fact that you have paid zero attention to our other likely candidates since the draft but insist Zadina was a bad pick pretty much says it all. You judged him in junior (contrary to any scout), haven't watched him since (I assume), say we should've drafted Dobson, Bouchard, or Hughes over him with admittedly zero context. Excuse me for thinking you're lacking solid reasoning. 

 

Edited by Wheelchairsuperhero

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On 5/18/2019 at 6:22 AM, kipwinger said:

 

Says the dude who wrote a page long response to my late night ribbing, outlining everything I've said bad about Jack Hughes in the last 6 months.  Probably feels good to get that off your chest huh?  Reminds me of that time you gave me a stern talking to for being so mean to the poor little MAGA dips***s.  Boy you really put me in my place that time too. 

Dude... radiating butt hurt energy

On 5/18/2019 at 6:24 AM, Dabura said:

You are radiating butthurt energy, my dude.

Yeah I kno

On 5/18/2019 at 10:02 AM, mackel said:

@krsmith17 @ChristopherReevesLegs

Inflammatory rhetoric/hyperbole aside...

1.  I saw alot of Zadina in Jr.  I observed a one dimensional player who sacrificed defence and his responsibilities defensively for offence.  I did not think his game would translate well to the pro leagues.  I stand by that assessment 100% and his numbers this year back that up.   Will he learn a more complete game maybe??  Will he lose offence in the process almost certainly. 

2.  In the lead up to the draft I was terrified we'd have Zadina "fall into our lap" I felt the Wings would draft him and that it would be a huge mistake (see above).  I believe we should have used that pick on Dobson, Bouchard or Hughes... whichever we felt was the better pick.  We'd fill the most prominent need in our organization.... a need that has existed since Lidstrom retired.

3.  I think people who are expecting the next Brett Hull, Mitch Marner, etc will be very, bitterly disappointed.  I agree with @ChristopherReevesLegs assessment that Zadina will play in the league, he'll be a top 6/9 forward but will fill role that a player we could have drafted in the 2nd or 3rd round would have.

4.  I think Zadina will be a bust relative to the expectations we have of a #6 pick with all the attached hype hes had.  If you were hoping for a one dimensional,  defensive liability, who may or may not put up points you'll be satisfied and won't use the bust label.  If you're expecting Kucherov 2.0, it's not happening.

Juxtaposing that vs a potential #1 top pair D, I think we wasted that pick last year.

‐----‐‐----‐--------------------

If Byram was available at 4, would you trade for that pick?  What would you give up?

I'd trade #6, 2019 2nd and a 2020 2nd.

I'd be willing to go as far as #6 plus a lottery protected 1st in 2020/2021

I pretty much agree with your assessment. I don't nearly see the type of player I expected from Zadina so far. I'm willing to change my mind if he grows, but I'm awfully suspicious at this point, as this player was supposed to be ahead of the curve. I don't think he is at all right now.

12 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Interesting. You seen the exact opposite of pretty much every amateur scout...

Except that his numbers were very good for a teenager playing his first year pro, coming from juniors...

If Zadina remained in juniors, he too would be pushing for a Memorial Cup with Halifax, and likely be one of the best players in the league.

I have no doubt Zadina would have been fantastic in juniors this year. However I agree with Mackel that he looks one dimensional. He was advertised as a competent two way winger. That couldn't be farther from the truth. His defense is 100% not up to par. He looked like a Pulkkinen out there.

11 hours ago, mackel said:

@Jonas Mahonas can't you see I'm the one being attacked and trolled because I'm exercising some independent thought...

Every time the discussion settles down a snide remark from the peanut gallery causes it to flare back up.  I'm more than content to let time prove me right and buy a round of "I told you sos' " later.

I may not agree with you on a lot of thing. but I do think you're getting stiff armed by popular opinion right now. Hold on, I'm here with ya.

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5 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I have no doubt Zadina would have been fantastic in juniors this year. However I agree with Mackel that he looks one dimensional. He was advertised as a competent two way winger. That couldn't be farther from the truth. His defense is 100% not up to par. He looked like a Pulkkinen out there.

His two-way game is well above average for a 19 year old scoring winger. Do you expect him to be a Selke candidate? Even if his defensive game has been overstated (I don't think it has), who cares? He's still competent defensively, and that should be good enough. Personally, I don't want every player on the team (especially wingers) to think defense first. Players that are as gifted offensively as Zadina, should be able to do what they do best, produce offense.

Even if his defense is as bad as you claim, defense can be taught. Nothing about Zadina's game or his first pro season stats indicate any cause for concern. Zadina will not be a bust. He will be a very good top line winger in a few years producing north of 60 points.

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8 hours ago, Wheelchairsuperhero said:

Do you? I asked you why they aren't considered busts relative to their draft position. Neither of them look to be a better pick at this point in time. But go on, keep sidestepping. 

Also everything I said was true, I was just too lazy to quote the posts you said them in. Jared McIsaac had a better season than Dobson btw. The only argument to be made for drafting someone else over Zadina at this point in time is Hughes, and you thought that would be a "huge mistake."

The fact that you have paid zero attention to our other likely candidates since the draft but insist Zadina was a bad pick pretty much says it all. You judged him in junior (contrary to any scout), haven't watched him since (I assume), say we should've drafted Dobson, Bouchard, or Hughes over him with admittedly zero context. Excuse me for thinking you're lacking solid reasoning. 

 

You're inference regarding Zadina is incorrect.  I've watched and wasn't shown anything that would alter my assessment. 

I follow Dobson, because were from the same Province.  I didn't follow Bouchard or Hughes (other than his call up) since their is no point... that ship has sailed.  We made our pick for worse or for worse.

Defenceman take longer to develop.  I'd expect a top tier D man to take longer to hit his stride than a winger.  The game is littered with examples...  but here's one Hedman... he was roundly criticized early on in his career, now not so much.

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2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

His two-way game is well above average for a 19 year old scoring winger. Do you expect him to be a Selke candidate? Even if his defensive game has been overstated (I don't think it has), who cares? He's still competent defensively, and that should be good enough. Personally, I don't want every player on the team (especially wingers) to think defense first. Players that are as gifted offensively as Zadina, should be able to do what they do best, produce offense.

Even if his defense is as bad as you claim, defense can be taught. Nothing about Zadina's game or his first pro season stats indicate any cause for concern. Zadina will not be a bust. He will be a very good top line winger in a few years producing north of 60 points.

What a defensive wizard...  -17,  next worst -7.  You must have "don't stop believing" playing every time you post positive commentary about Zadina's defence... 

Screenshot_20190520-110600_Chrome.jpg

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15 minutes ago, mackel said:

What a defensive wizard...  -17,  next worst -7.  You must have "don't stop believing" playing every time you post positive commentary about Zadina's defence... 

+/- is probably the most important stat in hockey... Bad +/- = Bad player. Drew Doughty is the worst player in the NHL. Stamkos was the worst player in the playoffs. Malkin a Kopitar are awful players...

You must have also missed the part where I said that defensive awareness is probably the easiest thing to teach a young player. Not that Zadina should really worry about that, but even if Zadina is awful defensively (he's not), is that why he equals bust in your mind?

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32 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

+/- is probably the most important stat in hockey... Bad +/- = Bad player. Drew Doughty is the worst player in the NHL. Stamkos was the worst player in the playoffs. Malkin a Kopitar are awful players...

You must have also missed the part where I said that defensive awareness is probably the easiest thing to teach a young player. Not that Zadina should really worry about that, but even if Zadina is awful defensively (he's not), is that why he equals bust in your mind?

That yzerman kid had a brutal +/- and what a great career he could have had if he just played defence #bust 

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3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

His two-way game is well above average for a 19 year old scoring winger.

Disagree

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Do you expect him to be a Selke candidate?

No

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

He's still competent defensively,

Disagree

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Even if his defense is as bad as you claim, defense can be taught. Nothing about Zadina's game or his first pro season stats indicate any cause for concern. Zadina will not be a bust. He will be a very good top line winger in a few years producing north of 60 points.

Agreed defense can be taught. I didn't call him a bust.

Zadina was supposed to be right in the mix with Svechnikov, Tkachuk, and Kotkaniemi, and all three of those players have full seasons under their belt already with a good amount of points. Meanwhile in Detroit, Zadina couldn't make our awful roster... and could only muster 35 AHL pts, while being -17... we got duped

I read through old draft day profiles and everyone describes Zadina as basically having no faults lol sound two way forward who can jump right in lol sure

 

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17 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Zadina was supposed to be right in the mix with Svechnikov, Tkachuk, and Kotkaniemi, and all three of those players have full seasons under their belt already with a good amount of points. Meanwhile in Detroit, Zadina couldn't make our awful roster... and could only muster 35 AHL pts, while being -17... we got duped

I read through old draft day profiles and everyone describes Zadina as basically having no faults lol sound two way forward who can jump right in lol sure

This is by far the dumbest reasoning I've seen yet as to why we got "duped" picking Zadina...

If Montreal had picked Zadina and Detroit then picked Kotkaniemi, I'd bet anything that Zadina would have made the Canadiens roster and put up similar numbers in Montreal and Kotkaniemi would have been cut by the Red Wings and played another season in the Finnish Elite League.

One player making a team and another player not making a completely different team means absolutely nothing in regards to which player is better, and certainly not which player projects to be better long term.

Fallacy argument if I ever did see one...

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27 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

If Montreal had picked Zadina and Detroit then picked Kotkaniemi, I'd bet anything that Zadina would have made the Canadiens roster and put up similar numbers in Montreal

So Zadina would have had a 35 pt NHL season this year had he played in MTL?

Yet he could only muster 35 pts in the AHL with us....

Hmmmm

31 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Fallacy argument if I ever did see one...

Oh yeah, what's the fallacy?

 

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1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

+/- is probably the most important stat in hockey... Bad +/- = Bad player. Drew Doughty is the worst player in the NHL. Stamkos was the worst player in the playoffs. Malkin a Kopitar are awful players...

You must have also missed the part where I said that defensive awareness is probably the easiest thing to teach a young player. Not that Zadina should really worry about that, but even if Zadina is awful defensively (he's not), is that why he equals bust in your mind?

Normally I'd agree, +/- is usually not very useful and I don't often put too much stock into it

I think it's worth noting in this instance though, because Zadina's +/- jumps off the page

He's -17 on team where the next worst is -7. His worst line-mate was Ford at -6. Many of his line-mates were positive. 1257 players played in the AHL last year. Zadina ranked 1224 in plus/minus. 1257 being the worst. That's a big yikes.

This was an AHL playoff team too, it's not like we are looking at a god awful AHL team here.

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22 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

So Zadina would have had a 35 pt NHL season this year had he played in MTL?

Yet he could only muster 35 pts in the AHL with us....

Hmmmm

I'm saying he could have put up 25 or 35 or 45. That's the point, we don't know how he would have done if he played a full season in Detroit or Montreal or Halifax. A completely different situation would lead to completely different results.

13 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Normally I'd agree, +/- is usually not very useful and I don't often put too much stock into it

I think it's worth noting in this instance though, because Zadina's +/- jumps off the page

He's -17 on team where the next worst is -7. His worst line-mate was Ford at -6. Many of his line-mates were positive. 1257 players played in the AHL last year. Zadina ranked 1224 in plus/minus. 1257 being the worst. That's a big yikes.

This was an AHL playoff team too, it's not like we are looking at a god awful AHL team here.

Sure, it's not ideal, but you don't think age / experience should be taken into account here? 

Cholowski was a team worst -20 on the Red Wings this season. Do you think that's a cause for concern? Or do you think he's a 20 year old rookie defenseman and he'll figure it out? It's the latter for me. I think Zadina will be fine and Cholowski will be fine, despite what their atrocious +/- stats say...

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22 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I'm saying he could have put up 25 or 35 or 45. That's the point, we don't know how he would have done if he played a full season in Detroit or Montreal or Halifax. A completely different situation would lead to completely different results.

This shouldn't have to be said, but a 35 pt AHL =/= a 35 pt NHL player

The translation factor for the AHL to NHL was 0.47 as of 2017. That would put Zadina roughly at 17 pts in 59 NHL games, or about 23 pts in a full NHL season.

31 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Sure, it's not ideal, but you don't think age / experience should be taken into account here? 

Cholowski was a team worst -20 on the Red Wings this season. Do you think that's a cause for concern? Or do you think he's a 20 year old rookie defenseman and he'll figure it out? It's the latter for me. I think Zadina will be fine and Cholowski will be fine, despite what their atrocious +/- stats say...

I certainly think Cholowski's NHL +/- is a cause for concern. That roughly tells me he's a rookie Dman who's not ready for defense at the NHL level yet.
I also think Zadina's AHL +/- is a cause for concern. That roughly tells me he's a rookie winger who was not ready for defense at the AHL level yet.

The takeaway point being that Zadina is struggling to master the AHL, while his fellow classmates are already having successful NHL rookie seasons.

Zadina was overhyped. Never shoulda been ranked 3, or even top 5. He's a 5-10 level prospect.

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3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

+/- is probably the most important stat in hockey... Bad +/- = Bad player. Drew Doughty is the worst player in the NHL. Stamkos was the worst player in the playoffs. Malkin a Kopitar are awful players...

You must have also missed the part where I said that defensive awareness is probably the easiest thing to teach a young player. Not that Zadina should really worry about that, but even if Zadina is awful defensively (he's not), is that why he equals bust in your mind?

+/- isn't a perfect stat to be sure... but its imperfections apply equally across a team over a large sample size.  Ie. He was by far the worst.

I feel he will be a bust because he is a one dimensional player.  Part of that is that he lacks defensive acumen. 

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2 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

That yzerman kid had a brutal +/- and what a great career he could have had if he just played defence #bust 

Worth noting that when he learned to play defence the Wings won cups.  

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