• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Sign in to follow this  
Dabura

3/14 Conductor GDT - Lightning @ Red Wings - 7:30 PM ET

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, GMRwings1983 said:

We traded Tampa the pick that became Vasilevsky.  Could have had Kucherov as well.  Seems like they don't need high draft picks to find franchise players.   

Straw man.

You can find great players outside the 1st round. But let's not pretend that great teams/organizations of the cap era haven't benefited from high draft picks.

Lightning

  • Stamkos - 1st overall
  • Hedman - 2nd overall

Penguins

  • Fleury - 1st overall
  • Malkin - 2nd overall
  • Crosby - 1st overall
  • J. Staal - 2nd overall

Blackhawks

  • Toews - 3rd overall
  • Kane - 1st overall

Kings

  • Kopitar - 11th overall
  • Doughty - 2nd overall

Capitals

  • Ovechkin - 1st overall
  • Backstrom - 4th overall

The Wings tried to retool on the fly for a number of years. It didn't work. We did get some good organizational depth and Dylan Larkin out of it, though.

Now we're hunting for bigger game, because we need it. And Devellano is on record saying he and Holland are naturally impatient and are willing to do outside-the-box things in attempt to speed up this rebuild if they're not satisfied with the state of things.

So what's the problem?

1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I agree. There is absolutely no benefit to establishing a losing culture. None.

The Wings haven't established a losing culture, and what people say on internet forums has no bearing on the organization's culture.

1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Which is why tanking in order to rebuild is a complete fallacy. You dont have to suck in order to draft good players.

There's that straw man again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Dabura said:

Straw man.

You can find great players outside the 1st round. But let's not pretend that great teams/organizations of the cap era haven't benefited from high draft picks.

Lightning

  • Stamkos - 1st overall
  • Hedman - 2nd overall

Penguins

  • Fleury - 1st overall
  • Malkin - 2nd overall
  • Crosby - 1st overall
  • J. Staal - 2nd overall

Blackhawks

  • Toews - 3rd overall
  • Kane - 1st overall

Kings

  • Kopitar - 11th overall
  • Doughty - 2nd overall

Capitals

  • Ovechkin - 1st overall
  • Backstrom - 4th overall

The Wings tried to retool on the fly for a number of years. It didn't work. We did get some good organizational depth and Dylan Larkin out of it, though.

Now we're hunting for bigger game, because we need it. And Devellano is on record saying he and Holland are naturally impatient and are willing to do outside-the-box things in attempt to speed up this rebuild if they're not satisfied with the state of things.

So what's the problem?

The Wings haven't established a losing culture, and what people say on internet forums has no bearing on the organization's culture.

There's that straw man again.

The Wings had three picks in the 2nd round of that 2011 draft before Kucherov went to Tampa.  They drafted Jurco, Oulett, and Sproul.  Yes, it helps to have higher picks.  Tampa has had some of those.  No, you don't need higher picks to still be able to find great players.  The Wings used to be good at that too.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Dabura said:

Straw man.

You can find great players outside the 1st round. But let's not pretend that great teams/organizations of the cap era haven't benefited from high draft picks.

Lightning

  • Stamkos - 1st overall
  • Hedman - 2nd overall

Penguins

  • Fleury - 1st overall
  • Malkin - 2nd overall
  • Crosby - 1st overall
  • J. Staal - 2nd overall

Blackhawks

  • Toews - 3rd overall
  • Kane - 1st overall

Kings

  • Kopitar - 11th overall
  • Doughty - 2nd overall

Capitals

  • Ovechkin - 1st overall
  • Backstrom - 4th overall

The Wings tried to retool on the fly for a number of years. It didn't work. We did get some good organizational depth and Dylan Larkin out of it, though.

Now we're hunting for bigger game, because we need it. And Devellano is on record saying he and Holland are naturally impatient and are willing to do outside-the-box things in attempt to speed up this rebuild if they're not satisfied with the state of things.

So what's the problem?

The Wings haven't established a losing culture, and what people say on internet forums has no bearing on the organization's culture.

There's that straw man again.

Not straw man at all. It has been argued MANY times (both sarcasticly and seriously) that this team needs to "tank", to keep losing in order to get better draft picks. His rebuttal, and mine, to that position is that "tanking" (or sucking in general) is not necessary in order to draft the players needed to rebuild. I furthered that position by adding that losing can actually do more harm than good, particularly when it becomes a pattern. I only have an Indiana University diploma, but I am pretty sure that the postings weren't fallacious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

The Wings had three picks in the 2nd round of that 2011 draft before Kucherov went to Tampa.  They drafted Jurco, Oulett, and Sproul.  Yes, it helps to have higher picks.  Tampa has had some of those.  No, you don't need higher picks to still be able to find great players.  The Wings used to be good at that too.    

I don't think anyone's saying you can't get great players without higher picks. However, I do feel that the days when you could find a Datsyuk and a Zetterberg towards the end of the draft are pretty much over.

If your point is that a lot of people are way too gung-ho about rebuilds, that's fair. But I'd add that a lot of Wings fans are way too gung-ho about the healing properties of Theoretical Red Wings GM Steve Yzerman and are way too eager to blame anything and everything on Ken Holland's supposed incompetence.

The Wings are where they need to be right now, IMO. It's dumb, but that's Parity™ for ya.

Edited by Dabura

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Not straw man at all. It has been argued MANY times (both sarcasticly and seriously) that this team needs to "tank", to keep losing in order to get better draft picks. His rebuttal, and mine, to that position is that "tanking" (or sucking in general) is not necessary in order to draft the players needed to rebuild.

I think that's disingenuous. You're framing it as "People who are pro-tanking don't understand that you can get great players without tanking." Everyone understands that great players can be acquired without tanking. But I submit that everyone also understands the realities of the cap era and the desperate reality of the Wings' situation.

What Holland is doing now is necessary. (And I don't think he has much of a choice anyway. The team is simply bad.) The Wings want to get back into the playoffs next season and get that juicy playoff revenue. They also want to get themselves the kind of young core that would allow for sustainable success, perennial contention, a long-lasting Cup window. Jack Hughes, Kaapo Kakko, Bowen Byram -- a player of this caliber would, in theory, help tremendously. The odds of finding one or two of that kind of player without multiple high picks spread out across several drafts...are not good.

So, personally, I'm fine with tanking. I agree that too much of a bad thing is a very bad thing and that what we're seeing right now must not become the norm. But with Holland and Devellano at the helm, I don't feel like that's a serious concern. Arguably no two executives in this league have less patience for losing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I agree. There is absolutely no benefit to establishing a losing culture. None.

What losing culture lol? Sitting on a computer from Indiana doesn't really give you a birdseye view of what's going on with the fans in Michigan/Detroit. 

You think fan enjoy the losses? People want us to get a good draft pick and then win. 

d68a4365805ef5463bdac7368371fa93.jpg

It's the big picture; this organization is a dominant and one of the best in the league and always will be. They're in it to win big, eventually. There will never be a losing culture with the Detroit Red Wings and there hasn't been since 1926. From the great depression, into WW2, into Civil rights into the Gulf war, this team has been THE TEAM that has won big. Yes the Detroit Lions and football in general is more popular, but it's always been the Red Wings that brought the "win" mentality in Detroit. Michigan pumps the most hockey player talent in the NTDP next to probably Minnesota. 

Edited by kickazz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I think that's disingenuous. You're framing it as "People who are pro-tanking don't understand that you can get great players without tanking." Everyone understands that great players can be acquired without tanking. But I submit that everyone also understands the realities of the cap era and the desperate reality of the Wings' situation.

What Holland is doing now is necessary. (And I don't think he has much of a choice anyway. The team is simply bad.) The Wings want to get back into the playoffs next season and get that juicy playoff revenue. They also want to get themselves the kind of young core that would allow for sustainable success, perennial contention, a long-lasting Cup window. Jack Hughes, Kaapo Kakko, Bowen Byram -- a player of this caliber would, in theory, help tremendously. The odds of finding one or two of that kind of player without multiple high picks spread out across several drafts...are not good.

:clap:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I agree that too much of a bad thing is a very bad thing and that what we're seeing right now must not become the norm. 

This has literally never happened with the Red Wings. And it's not going to. If someone argues "The Dead Wings" era then I suggest doing a history search on why that era actually happened (it was more of a political issue within the organization and change in style of play forced upon the players).

So this argument that keeps being brought up is silly. Literally nobody in that organization wants to be unsuccessful. 

Edited by kickazz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, kickazz said:

This has literally never happened with the Red Wings. And it's not going to. If someone argues "The Dead Wings" era then I suggest doing a history search on why that era actually happened (it was more of a political issue within the organization and change in style of play forced upon the players)

Counterpoint: Holland is lazy and he sucks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I think that's disingenuous. You're framing it as "People who are pro-tanking don't understand that you can get great players without tanking." Everyone understands that great players can be acquired without tanking. But I submit that everyone also understands the realities of the cap era and the desperate reality of the Wings' situation.

What Holland is doing now is necessary. (And I don't think he has much of a choice anyway. The team is simply bad.) The Wings want to get back into the playoffs next season and get that juicy playoff revenue. They also want to get themselves the kind of young core that would allow for sustainable success, perennial contention, a long-lasting Cup window. Jack Hughes, Kaapo Kakko, Bowen Byram -- a player of this caliber would, in theory, help tremendously. The odds of finding one or two of that kind of player without multiple high picks spread out across several drafts...are not good.

So, personally, I'm fine with tanking. I agree that too much of a bad thing is a very bad thing and that what we're seeing right now must not become the norm. But with Holland and Devellano at the helm, I don't feel like that's a serious concern. Arguably no two executives in this league have less patience for losing.

What's he doing now?  Are you saying Holland is trying to tank for higher picks?    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, GMRwings1983 said:

Well, he's largely responsible for it.  No one else shoulders more blame.  

So we're mad at him because he fought off the rebuild for as a long as he could and we're also mad at him because he's now taking a different approach for a couple of years.

"He should've found a way to acquire some franchise players when he was trying to retool on the fly."

ok man

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Dabura said:

So we're mad at him because he fought off the rebuild for as a long as he could and we're also mad at him because he's now taking a different approach for a couple of years.

"He should've found a way to acquire some franchise players when he was trying to retool on the fly."

ok man

No.  We're mad at him because he overpaid undeserving players on our current roster.  We're mad that he hasn't replaced the current head coach.  We're mad they haven't drafted well as a whole (in whatever round).  He's not taking a different approach.  They're not trying to tank on purpose like the LA Kings.  They're actually this bad because their roster stinks.  Them losing is inevitable.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, GMRwings1983 said:

No.  We're mad at him because he overpaid undeserving players on our current roster.

I still haven't seen a compelling argument for why this really matters. How has it materially hurt the rebuild? Who are the great players we would have used that money on?

1 minute ago, GMRwings1983 said:

We're mad that he hasn't replaced the current head coach.

So you want your team's GM and coach fired. Which puts you in the company of ~65% of all hockey fans.

2 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

We're mad they haven't drafted well as a whole (in whatever round).

The drafting has been fine. We're coming off a 25-year-long playoff streak. We haven't picked in the top three in decades. I'm gonna give the Wings a pass for not finding Kucherovs and Subbans with the limited number of picks they've had.

4 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

He's not taking a different approach.

Yes, he is. He's been selling at the deadline. He's been stockpiling picks. He's actively trying to get this team younger.

5 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

They're not trying to tank on purpose like the LA Kings.

"No, no, the Kings aren't actually this bad, they're just tanking on purpose. Totally different situation. Ken Holland is the worst." blah blah blah.

7 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Them losing is inevitable.  

Them losing is inevitable because that's how it works in the cap era. You can only tread water for so long.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I still haven't seen a compelling argument for why this really matters. How has it materially hurt the rebuild? Who are the great players we would have used that money on?

So you want your team's GM and coach fired. Which puts you in the company of ~65% of all hockey fans.

The drafting has been fine. We're coming off a 25-year-long playoff streak. We haven't picked in the top three in decades. I'm gonna give the Wings a pass for not finding Kucherovs and Subbans with the limited number of picks they've had.

Yes, he is. He's been selling at the deadline. He's been stockpiling picks. He's actively trying to get this team younger.

"No, no, the Kings aren't actually this bad, they're just tanking on purpose. Totally different situation. Ken Holland is the worst." blah blah blah.

Them losing is inevitable because that's how it works in the cap era. You can only tread water for so long.

Stop making excuses for Holland.  The money he wasted on the Ericssons and Abdelkaders could have been spent on more deserving players for that kind of salary (doesn't have to be Stamkos or Tavares).  Those players could in turn make this team more competitive and be part of this team's future.  You really want Abdelkader, Ericcson or Nielsen as part of this team's future?  Why are you giving Holland a pass for these contracts?  

Detroit had three picks in the second round in 2011, right before Tampa drafted Kucherov.  So they did not have limited picks.  They just didn't scout very well and wasted their picks on crap.  

He's stockpiling picks now because he doesn't have a choice.  This team is bad.  It doesn't make sense for them to be a buyer.  They have to be a seller.  They don't have enough salary cap space to be a buyer anyway.  That wasn't a choice as much as the outcome of several years of poor drafting, poor contracts, and yes the retirement of Datsyuk and now Zetterberg that was foreseen.    

Holland is not some tragic figure here.  He made his own bed.  Don't make excuses for him.  Yes, he's trying hard now to fix his mistakes.  IMO it's time for him to leave and let someone else fix those mistakes.  In the Ilitch pizza family, they're not of that opinion.  They're of the opinion that Holland has immunity.  

Edited by GMRwings1983

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OILERS FAN: "I heard Ken Holland might be coming aboard. HYPE!"

WINGS FAN: " Ackchyually, Ken Holland is garbage."

OILERS FAN: "lol wut"

WINGS FAN: "It's true. He signed some bad contracts and he refuses to fire our head coach. Also, his drafting his bad."

OILERS FAN: "You know how stupid you sound to this Oilers fan, right?"

WINGS FAN: "I'm telling you, man. Ken Holland is bad news. He's poison. He's a loser. It's settled science."

OILERS FAN: "[tiny violin]"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Dabura said:

OILERS FAN: "I heard Ken Holland might be coming aboard. HYPE!"

WINGS FAN: " Ackchyually, Ken Holland is garbage."

OILERS FAN: "lol wut"

WINGS FAN: "It's true. He signed some bad contracts and he refuses to fire our head coach. Also, his drafting his bad."

OILERS FAN: "You know how stupid you sound to this Oilers fan, right?"

WINGS FAN: "I'm telling you, man. Ken Holland is bad news. He's poison. He's a loser. It's settled science."

OILERS FAN: "[tiny violin]"

Yeah, let's be more like the Oilers.  :rolleyes:

Do people around the NHL still think Holland is one of the best GM's in the league?  If so, what are they basing that on in recent memory?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chiarelli made some good moves in Boston that led to a Stanley Cup and two Finals appearances.  Every dog has his day.  

Edited by GMRwings1983

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Stop making excuses for Holland.  The money he wasted on the Ericssons and Abdelkaders could have been spent on more deserving players for that kind of salary (doesn't have to be Stamkos or Tavares).  Those players could in turn make this team more competitive and be part of this team's future.  You really want Abdelkader, Ericcson or Nielsen as part of this team's future?  Why are you giving Holland a pass for these contracts? 

Still waiting on how these contracts are hurting us. Shoulda Coulda Woulda is a dumb game with dumb prizes.

5 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Detroit had three picks in the second round in 2011, right before Tampa drafted Kucherov.  So they did not have limited picks.  They just didn't scout very well and wasted their picks on crap.

lol, sure, go with that.

"Watch GMR DESTROY Ken Holland with FACTS and LOGIC!"

6 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

He's stockpiling picks now because he doesn't have a choice.  This team is bad.  It doesn't make sense for them to be a buyer.  They have to be a seller.  They don't have enough salary cap space to be a buyer anyway.  That wasn't a choice as much as the outcome of several years of poor drafting, poor contracts, and yes the retirement of Datsyuk and now Zetterberg that was foreseen.   

Do you see how far I'm making you stretch? Do you see how little there is in the way of indisuptuably damning evidence that screams "Holland must go"?

10 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Holland is not some tragic figure here.  He made his own bed.  Don't make excuses for him.  

I'll do what I want, thx babe.

4 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Yeah, let's be more like the Oilers.  :rolleyes:

Because that was totally my point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Still waiting on how these contracts are hurting us. Shoulda Coulda Woulda is a dumb game with dumb prizes.

lol, sure, go with that.

"Watch GMR DESTROY Ken Holland with FACTS and LOGIC!"

Do you see how far I'm making you stretch? Do you see how little there is in the way of indisuptuably damning evidence that screams "Holland must go"?

I'll do what I want, thx babe.

Because that was totally my point.

They're not.  They're wonderful contracts.  Let's give more players with similar talent levels (or lack thereof) similar contracts in the future.  That's a great plan for rebuilding right there.  The young guys will love sitting on the bench or in the minors while Ericsson and Abdelkader types are logging icetime trying to earn their wonderful paychecks.  We need more Michigan guys as well.  Not enough of those around.  Nothing better for player development than to learn from veterans that aren't very good.  

Also, if we get higher draft picks in the future, we can draft a generational type player, and then we could just put a scrub like Abdelkader on his wing, and we'd be fine in the future (that is, until that Abdelkader type's contract ran out in 5 years).  Just ask Edmonton fans how that's turning out for them.   

Edited by GMRwings1983

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Update: Had a good poop.

15 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

They're not.  They're wonderful contracts.  Let's give more players with similar talent levels (or lack thereof) similar contracts in the future.  That's a great plan for rebuilding right there.  The young guys will love sitting on the bench or in the minors while Ericsson and Abdelkader types are logging icetime trying to earn their wonderful paychecks.  We need more Michigan guys as well.  Not enough of those around.

Kronwall has, at most, a year left (and he's actually had a pretty good season). Nielsen and/or Abdelkader can be bought out when the time is right. Nielsen's a decent 3C.

Ericsson has a year left. It's always been fashionable to hate on Ericsson, but he and his contract have always been harmless. Bad contract? Sure. Crippling contract? No. Do I think the fact that Holland gave Ericsson his contract means that it's only a matter of time before he hands out seven more contracts just like Ericsson's? No. I choose to believe Holland has learned from some of his missteps, Ericsson being one of them.

Holland decided against bringing Nyquist back on a $5M(+) x 5 contract. Holland hasn't made any albatross UFA signings over the past couple of seasons (i.e. since the start of the rebuild). Holland has worked out some good RFA deals. Holland has pulled off some good trades.

The "zomg cap hell" angle is overblown. The "zomg no room for kids" angle is overblown. The "zomg Holland signs terrible contracts" angle is overblown. The "zomg Holland doesn't know how to run a team in today's NHL" angle is overblown.

11 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Also, if we get higher draft picks in the future, we can draft a generational type player, and then we could just put a scrub like Abdelkader on his wing, and we'd be fine in the future (that is, until Abdelkader's contract ran out in 5 years). 

That darn Abdelkader! Always sabotaging our rebuild efforts! *shakes fist angrily*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Update: Had a good poop.

Kronwall has, at most, a year left (and he's actually had a pretty good season). Nielsen and/or Abdelkader can be bought out when the time is right. Nielsen's a decent 3C.

Ericsson has a year left. It's always been fashionable to hate on Ericsson, but he and his contract have always been harmless. Bad contract? Sure. Crippling contract? No. Do I think the fact that Holland gave Ericsson his contract means that it's only a matter of time before he hands out seven more contracts just like Ericsson's? No. I choose to believe Holland has learned from some of his missteps, Ericsson being one of them.

Holland decided against bringing Nyquist back on a $5M(+) x 5 contract. Holland hasn't made any albatross UFA signings over the past couple of seasons (i.e. since the start of the rebuild). Holland has worked out some good RFA deals. Holland has pulled off some good trades.

The "zomg cap hell" angle is overblown. The "zomg no room for kids" angle is overblown. The "zomg Holland signs terrible contracts" angle is overblown. The "zomg Holland doesn't know how to run a team in today's NHL" angle is overblown.

That darn Abdelkader! Always sabotaging our rebuild efforts! *shakes fist angrily*

The only thing being overblown is Holland.  By you. 

Giving out bad contracts to five or six players is bad for any team.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this