Who will score more goals to end the season, Larkin or AA?

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Could say the same thing about Larkin, tbh.

Nah, two very different players / circumstances in my opinion. Larkin has the speed, but he has much more in his tool bag in my opinion. His hockey IQ is much higher and his work ethic and determination will allow him to adapt if / when he loses that top end speed.

[kickazz 5,459]

3 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Could say the same thing about Larkin, tbh.

Agreed. Larkin’s speed drives his style of game. He’s not your Datsyuk type finesse player that tricks the opponent. He’s not your Zetterberg type player that outsmarts opponents with limited abilities. He’s a fast player that uses it to his advantage. What happens when his speed runs out? Can he finesse his way through? Is he as smart as Zet and adaptable as Zet or someone like Thornton? I don’t think so. 

[Dabura 12,207]

Just now, krsmith17 said:

Nah, two very different players / circumstances in my opinion. Larkin has the speed, but he has much more in his tool bag in my opinion. His hockey IQ is much higher and his work ethic and determination will allow him to adapt if / when he loses that top end speed.

I think Larkin is the better player and he'll have an easier time adapting, but I do feel speed is the central pillar of his game and the main reason why he's as effective as he is. It's the one concern I have about him, long-term.

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 minute ago, kickazz said:

Agreed. Larkin’s speed drives his style of game. He’s not your Datsyuk type finesse player that tricks the opponent. He’s not your Zetterberg type player that outsmarts opponents with limited abilities. He’s a fast player that uses it to his advantage. What happens when his speed runs out? Can he finesse his way through? Is he as smart as Zet and adaptable as Zet or someone like Thornton? I don’t think so. 

I definitely think he is / will be. His will to be the best player he can be is off the charts. He will be the next captain of the Red Wings, and I think he will be very similar to Zetterberg in a lot of respects.

[kickazz 5,459]

Just now, Dabura said:

I think Larkin is the better player and he'll have an easier time adapting, but I do feel speed is the central pillar of his game and the main reason why he's as effective as he is. It's the one concern I have about him, long-term.

I hate to say it but players who are usually at a disadvantage (aren't the biggest guys, aren't the fastest) are usually the smartest and most adaptable. Yzerman, Patrick Kane, Datsyuk, Zetterberg are a few that come to mind that were either small players who used their wits to make it far. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I think Larkin is the better player and he'll have an easier time adapting, but I do feel speed is the central pillar of his game and the main reason why he's as effective as he is. It's the one concern I have about him, long-term.

I understand where you're coming from, I just think he will adapt.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

10 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I'll wade into the middle of this debate only to say that with AA corsi matters a whole lot less because of his breakaway ability.  Corsi is a function of shots on goal, and it's a good measure of possession and a good predictor of success for most players (generally speaking).  In one very important respect AA isn't like most players.  He gets lots of breakaways.  If you get two or three shots on goal a game, and your line is badly out shot, but you get two breakaways and bury them your possession metrics will suck, but you'll be super valuable in a limited role (kinda like Michael Grabner).  AA's value isn't in driving possession.  AA's value is in being able to generate offense when your team DOESN'T HAVE possession. 

Totally. Doesn't sound like a #2 center to me. 

 

9 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Good call.

So you agree then. AA is more like Michael Grabner. So far removed from a #2 center. 

[Dabura 12,207]

Just now, krsmith17 said:

I understand where you're coming from, I just think he will adapt.

Nah I agree. I'm just saying Larkin is lazy and he sucks.

3 minutes ago, kickazz said:

I hate to say it but players who are usually at a disadvantage (aren't the biggest guys, aren't the fastest) are usually the smartest and most adaptable. Yzerman, Patrick Kane, Datsyuk, Zetterberg are a few that come to mind that were either small players who used their wits to make it far. 

Larkin is at a disadvantage because of his sheer laziness and suckiness.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

8 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Nah, two very different players / circumstances in my opinion. Larkin has the speed, but he has much more in his tool bag in my opinion. His hockey IQ is much higher and his work ethic and determination will allow him to adapt if / when he loses that top end speed.

Agreed

 

7 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I think Larkin is the better player and he'll have an easier time adapting, but I do feel speed is the central pillar of his game and the main reason why he's as effective as he is. It's the one concern I have about him, long-term.

better x 3

[Dabura 12,207]

AA should be the next captain. This is his team now and everyone knows it.

[kickazz 5,459]

1 minute ago, Dabura said:

Larkin is at a disadvantage because of his sheer laziness and suckiness.

Maybe in bed but not on ice. 

[Dabura 12,207]

Just now, kickazz said:

Maybe in bed but not on ice. 

big if true

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

13 minutes ago, Dabura said:

AA should be the next captain. This is his team now and everyone knows it.

He can be captain every non-playoff year after official elimination. Apparently that's his time to shine. 

[Dabura 12,207]

Bertuzzi should be the next captain. This is his team now and everyone knows it.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

12 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Bertuzzi should be the next captain. This is his team now and everyone knows it.

Strangely enough. If I had to jettison a player and it came down to him or AA, I wouldn't flinch. "Doubles" would be out the door faster than he can skate. 

[Dabura 12,207]

FIRE AA

FREE HIROSE

[kickazz 5,459]

10 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Good call.

 

45 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

So you agree then. AA is more like Michael Grabner. So far removed from a #2 center. 

Bill Berzeench got Rick Zombo banned last time. Who will get who banned this time? 

Stay tuned.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

42 minutes ago, kickazz said:

 

Bill Berzeench got Rick Zombo banned last time. Who will get who banned this time? 

Stay tuned.

False. And frankly, gives more credit to Bill than he deserves. Rick Zombo got himself banned for creating a blatant and mockingly-toned sock account called "Sock Man",  one day before his third one week suspension was to be lifted. Rick's ban was self-inflicted. Bill got himself banned for being an full-on dink. I mean, as legend has it/so they say............

Edited March 21, 2019 by The 91 of Ryans

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

Leading Goal Scorer

 

Scoreboard.

[kipwinger 8,522]

2 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Totally. Doesn't sound like a #2 center to me. 

 

So you agree then. AA is more like Michael Grabner. So far removed from a #2 center. 

Well, don't get too far ahead of yourself because AA's corsi has actually improved pretty significantly since the move to center. So while I think it's a bad metric for capturing what makes him so dangerous offensively, there's a very real possibility that he'll have "2nd line center types metrics" by the end of the season.  Hard to say until the last game is played though. 

And just as a point of clarity, I wasn't saying that AA played "like Grabner".  I was saying that they both have the ability to contribute significantly to team offense without needing sustained possession to do so.  Pavel Bure did the same thing, but it would be equally questionable to say AA "plays like Bure". 

Edited March 21, 2019 by kipwinger

[kipwinger 8,522]

5 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Which would make you wonder, how valuable will Athanasiou be beyond his prime years? His main asset right now is his speed. What happens when he loses a step or two? He will have to adapt his game to keep up the production. Will he be able / willing to do that? I'm not so sure. He may be our first 30 goal scorer in 10 years when we had four (Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen and Hossa) hit that mark. I'd still consider trading him if it meant bringing in a young, top pair defenseman though...

I actually think he'll maintain his value because of HOW he scores.  He's basically immune from changes in shot volume and shooting percentage (things that tend to get worse as you get older) because so much of his offense is generated from breakaways.  And while he may not get quite as many, he's still 300 percent faster than pretty much everyone so he'll get plenty. Grabner still does.

Aside from Ovechkin, the guys who I worry about are the ones who rely on shot volume to produce lots of points.  Because as your physical attributes diminish and you cant do what you used to be able to do you get less ice time and your shot volume goes down.  If you don't need much ice time and only need one shot to score one goal then it's less of an issue.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

5 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we must trade Athanasiou because he's due to regress. I think it's a few years before that would be an issue. I do think his name should be on the table for any potential trades involving a top pair defenseman though.

Imagine what the haul would have been for Mrazek if he was traded 2 years earlier than he was. Not comparing AA's talent to Mrazeks, but if you believe he's not a long term threat, you have to look at moving him for help on D while he's at his highest value. I just don't seem him as a top 6 scoring threat long term, and I don't want to see Holland lock him into a long term contract because of it. The other kids look more like long term solutions, which is why AA is the odd man out for me. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

19 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Imagine what the haul would have been for Mrazek if he was traded 2 years earlier than he was. Not comparing AA's talent to Mrazeks, but if you believe he's not a long term threat, you have to look at moving him for help on D while he's at his highest value. I just don't seem him as a top 6 scoring threat long term, and I don't want to see Holland lock him into a long term contract because of it. The other kids look more like long term solutions, which is why AA is the odd man out for me. 

I'm not so sure he's at his highest value though. He's currently on pace for 52 points this season, and I think he could be a 55-65 point player for the next few seasons. I wouldn't be in any major rush to trade him, unless a team is willing to overpay. I see him as a top six scoring threat for the next few seasons, so I guess that could be considered long(ish) term. I agree that he shouldn't be locked up long-term, but I'm against long-term contracts in general, with the exception being franchise type players. Athanasiou, as talented as he is, is not close to a franchise player.

[gcom007 1,465]

1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Imagine what the haul would have been for Mrazek if he was traded 2 years earlier than he was. Not comparing AA's talent to Mrazeks, but if you believe he's not a long term threat, you have to look at moving him for help on D while he's at his highest value. I just don't seem him as a top 6 scoring threat long term, and I don't want to see Holland lock him into a long term contract because of it. The other kids look more like long term solutions, which is why AA is the odd man out for me. 

On a random note, living down in NC now, you hear about the Canes a bit. Mrazek’s become fairly popular with casual fans. Seems to be pulling together a strong finish to the season. Good to see him having success. We’ll see if it lasts...

Edited March 21, 2019 by gcom007

[kickazz 5,459]

8 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

False. And frankly, gives more credit to Bill than he deserves. Rick Zombo got himself banned for creating a blatant and mockingly-toned sock account called "Sock Man",  one day before his third one week suspension was to be lifted. Rick's ban was self-inflicted. Bill got himself banned for being an full-on dink. I mean, as legend has it/so they say............

@vladdy16 ran a tight ship