TB vs CBJ - Series Thread

[Dabura 12,207]

2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Was it supposed to make bad teams into good ones?  That seems to be the line the anti-parity people take.  Or was it designed to make the difference between bad and good smaller?  Which wouldn't really upset the order of things but would make for more entertaining games and more compelling matchups?

Are the games consistently more entertaining in the parity era? If so, Is that mostly because we have a cap in place?

Are the matchups consistently more compelling in the parity era? If so, Is that mostly because we have a cap in place?

Is it real parity if the Leafs organization continues to be a money-printing machine and can outspend other teams in any and every area except player cap hits?

I don't necessarily have really strong answers to these questions. The point is that "Parity is awesome and if you don't like it, you're a hillbilly" is a weak take. Weak and boring.

6 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

the entire hockey world is currently talking about a series being played between a team from Tampa Bay and a team from Columbus.  30 years ago a series between these two teams would be an afterthought.  Today it's the best story of the playoffs (so far). 

This series WAS an afterthought -- until the Jackets started embarrassing the Bolts. Just as a pre-parity first-round matchup between the Wings and the Mighty Ducks was an afterthought -- until the Ducks started embarrassing the Wings.

If there's a meaningful difference in "attention being paid," I'd argue today's age of accessibility (TV packages, streaming, social media, YouTube fan channels) plays a big role.

[kipwinger 8,521]

Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I think Torts is a much better coach than anyone realizes, and he's not taken seriously because of his media antics. Torts is out-coaching the pants off Jon Pooper.

Maybe true, he's got just as many Cups and one more Jack Adams trophy than Mike Babcock for what that's worth lol.

I think Columbus is following the Capitals game plan from last year.  I watched the Caps run pretty closely last year given that I live here, and while the Tampa series went to 7 games it wasn't really as close as it seemed.  On a period by period basis Washington crushed Tampa because they did two things Tampa isn't cut out for, 1) clogged the neutral zone and forced Tampa to dump the puck more often than they like to, and 2) were extremely physical and aggressive on the forecheck.  Tampa is not built to win physical battles and they wilt in those situations.

There were plenty of holes in their game if any of the talking heads had bothered to stop blowing them long enough to actually look. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Maybe true, he's got just as many Cups and one more Jack Adams trophy than Mike Babcock for what that's worth lol.

I think Columbus is following the Capitals game plan from last year.  I watched the Caps run pretty closely last year given that I live here, and while the Tampa series went to 7 games it wasn't really as close as it seemed.  On a period by period basis Washington crushed Tampa because they did two things Tampa isn't cut out for, 1) clogged the neutral zone and forced Tampa to dump the puck more often than they like to, and 2) were extremely physical and aggressive on the forecheck.  Tampa is not built to win physical battles and they wilt in those situations.

There were plenty of holes in their game if any of the talking heads had bothered to stop blowing them long enough to actually look. 

I would agree, Tampa is not equipped to handle physicality. Torts always makes his boys play 60 minutes of hard-nosed blue collar hockey. They're getting out worked and are panicking that they suddenly can't score at will.

[kipwinger 8,521]

18 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Are the games consistently more entertaining in the parity era? If so, Is that mostly because we have a cap in place?

Are the matchups consistently more compelling in the parity era? If so, Is that mostly because we have a cap in place?

Is it real parity if the Leafs organization continues to be a money-printing machine and can outspend other teams in any and every area except player cap hits?

I don't necessarily have really strong answers to these questions. The point is that "Parity is awesome and if you don't like it, you're a hillbilly" is a weak take. Weak and boring.

This series WAS an afterthought -- until the Jackets started embarrassing the Bolts. Just as a pre-parity first-round matchup between the Wings and the Mighty Ducks was an afterthought -- until the Ducks started embarrassing the Wings.

If there's a meaningful difference in "attention being paid," I'd argue today's age of accessibility (TV packages, streaming, social media, YouTube fan channels) plays a big role.

Right, because there are so many people lining up to defend parity, the league, and Gary Bettman.  I'm so obvious, I should be ashamed.  I'm sure I'd earn your star of approval if, in response to this series, my take was something like "durrrr Tampa sure doesn't know how to fight through adversity durrr".  At the very least,  I doubt you'd go out of your way to challenge it as much as you've challenged me here. 

Here's some food for thought, when you fly in to protect the "unwashed masses/hillbillies" (your words not mine), aren't you being just a patronizing as I am?  I just make fun of stupid people on the internet.  You think they need your protection. 

6 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I would agree, Tampa is not equipped to handle physicality. Torts always makes his boys play 60 minutes of hard-nosed blue collar hockey. They're getting out worked and are panicking that they suddenly can't score at will.

I'm not even sure it's outworked as much as it's that they're being forced to play a game they're not equipped for.  Tampa has a few scrappy/gritty guys but nobody who's going to beat Josh Anderson in a board battle consistently.  Chances are that basic dynamic doesn't change at even strength, so the obvious solution for Tampa would be to do their damage on the PP and make Columbus open up the game because they're playing from behind.  Except oops, Tampa is the more undisciplined team right now and so are taking all the penalties and therefore can't score. 

Edited April 15, 2019 by kipwinger

[Dabura 12,207]

Just now, kipwinger said:

Right, because there are so many people lining up to defend parity, the league, and Gary Bettman.  I'm so obvious, I should be ashamed.  I'm sure I'd earn your star of approval if, in response to this series, my take was something like "durrrr Tampa sure doesn't know how to fight through adversity durrr".  At the very least,  I doubt you'd go out of your way to challenge it as much as you've challenged me here.

As always, you're like this total newcomer to sports who hasn't quite gotten the hang of how this whole "rooting" and "booing" and tribalism and fan investment thing works. You want cold hard logic, all when you yourself are anything but objective in these matters. Bless your heart, you adorable child.

Personally, I'm torn on parity. I think it's done some good and I think in some ways it's a sham. You get a lot of fans just ripping into it at every opportunity, and that's their right, and they're not necessarily wrong to feel the way they do and they're not necessarily mistaken in their convictions. On the other hand, you have an entire media-intelligentsia class that won't utter a word against it. (And, to be fair, maybe they're equally right, in their own way.) Or do we hear the NBC crews consistently going off on the cap? Is that a thing?

7 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Here's some food for thought, when you fly in to protect the "unwashed masses/hillbillies" (your words not mine), aren't you being just a patronizing as I am?  I just make fun of stupid people on the internet.  You think they need your protection. 

Remember that time you complained in a hockey thread about how people were complaining about officiating conspiracies?

Remember that time you complained in a hockey thread about how stupid people don't believe in global warming?

Remember that time you complained in a hockey thread about how stupid people believe in Bigfoot conspiracies?

Good times.

I'm not going after you out of some sense of moral obligation. I'm going after you because you're a ****.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, Dabura said:

As always, you're like this total newcomer to sports who hasn't quite gotten the hang of how this whole "rooting" and "booing" and tribalism and fan investment thing works. You want cold hard logic, all when you yourself are anything but objective in these matters. Bless your heart, you adorable child.

Personally, I'm torn on parity. I think it's done some good and I think in some ways it's a sham. You get a lot of fans just ripping into it at every opportunity, and that's their right, and they're not necessarily wrong to feel the way they do and they're not necessarily mistaken in their convictions. On the other hand, you have an entire media-intelligentsia class that won't utter a word against it. (And, to be fair, maybe they're equally right, in their own way.) Or do we hear the NBC crews consistently going off on the cap? Is that a thing?

Remember that time you complained in a hockey thread about how people were complaining about officiating conspiracies?

Remember that time you complained in a hockey thread about how stupid people don't believe in global warming?

Remember that time you complained in a hockey thread about how stupid people believe in Bigfoot conspiracies?

Good times.

I'm not going after you out of some sense of moral obligation. I'm going after you because you're a ****.

Global warming isn't real in the sense that only a true R-tard would think it's actually a real issue that we need to be concerned about.

[Dabura 12,207]

1 minute ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Global warming isn't real in the sense that only a true R-tard would think it's actually a real issue that we need to be concerned about.

People who believe in global warming are the same fools who believe the world is round.

[amato 3,210]

37 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I think Torts is a much better coach than anyone realizes, and he's not taken seriously because of his media antics. Torts is out-coaching the pants off Jon Pooper.

Is he considered a bad coach? I never thought he was one of the best by any means but I wouldn't say bad... i just don't like him at all   

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 minutes ago, Dabura said:

People who believe in global warming are the same fools who believe the world is round.

The rapture is upon us, repent now!
- Global warming activist

Just now, amato said:

Is he considered a bad coach? I never thought he was one of the best by any means but I wouldn't say bad... i just don't like him at all   

I've always gotten the sense that he's considered kind of a joke because of his personality. I think he's actually a really good coach who squeezes a lot more than most out of players.

[kipwinger 8,521]

14 minutes ago, Dabura said:

As always, you're like this total newcomer to sports who hasn't quite gotten the hang of how this whole "rooting" and "booing" and tribalism and fan investment thing works. You want cold hard logic, all when you yourself are anything but objective in these matters. Bless your heart, you adorable child.

Personally, I'm torn on parity. I think it's done some good and I think in some ways it's a sham. You get a lot of fans just ripping into it at every opportunity, and that's their right, and they're not necessarily wrong to feel the way they do and they're not necessarily mistaken in their convictions. On the other hand, you have an entire media-intelligentsia class that won't utter a word against it. (And, to be fair, maybe they're equally right, in their own way.) Or do we hear the NBC crews consistently going off on the cap? Is that a thing?

Remember that time you complained in a hockey thread about how people were complaining about officiating conspiracies?

Remember that time you complained in a hockey thread about how stupid people don't believe in global warming?

Remember that time you complained in a hockey thread about how stupid people believe in Bigfoot conspiracies?

Good times.

I'm not going after you out of some sense of moral obligation. I'm going after you because you're a ****.

Other than the Bigfoot thing I actually don't remember these other instances which are so obviously burned into your psyche.  Are there any other things I've said or done over the years that you've been dwelling on?  Clearly you've been ruminating on those for a while lol. 

I clearly don't get how any of this works so tell me you wise Sports Knower, if I'm doing fanhood right can I talk sh*t to other sports fans?  You seem not to like it when I do, so sh*t talking is un-fan-like right?  How about being a d*ck, that's bad too right?  Sports people are never d*cks right?  I'm just confused because whenever I watch sports TV or listen to sports podcasts or read sports commentary people seem to be acting like dicks (Wyshynski, Filipovic, Cherry, Milbury, Roenick, Edwards, Jay and Dan, Lambert, Bayless, Smith, etc. etc. etc.) and my childlike brain doesn't know now to reconcile the two. 

So if I wanna be the kind of fan you find acceptable I have to not talk s***, and not be a dick, because those things are totally un-fan-like and quite obviously have no place in the exalted halls of fanhood. 

And I should definitely not tell other people how to be fans.  Because you'd NEVER do that. 

durrrr...Columbus really seems to "want it" this year...durrrrr.

Better?

 

[Dabura 12,207]

Just now, kipwinger said:

Other than the Bigfoot thing I actually don't remember these other instances which are so obviously burned into your psyche.  Are there any other things I've said or done over the years that you've been dwelling on?  Clearly you've been ruminating on those for a while lol. 

I clearly don't get how any of this works so tell me you wise Sports Knower, if I'm doing fanhood right can I talk sh*t to other sports fans?  You seem not to like it when I do, so sh*t talking is un-fan-like right?  How about being a d*ck, that's bad too right?  Sports people are never d*cks right?  I'm just confused because whenever I watch sports TV or listen to sports podcasts or read sports commentary people seem to be acting like dicks (Wyshynski, Filipovic, Cherry, Milbury, Roenick, Edwards, Jay and Dan, Lambert, Bayless, Smith, etc. etc. etc.) and my childlike brain doesn't know now to reconcile the two. 

So if I wanna be the kind of fan you find acceptable I have to not talk s***, and not be a dick, because those things are totally un-fan-like and quite obviously have no place in the exalted halls of fanhood. 

And I should definitely not tell other people how to be fans.  Because you'd NEVER do that. 

durrrr...Columbus really seems to "want it" this year...durrrrr.

Better?

Nah, I'm all for talking s***. It's a big part of what makes sports fandom so great. Which is why I'm doing it and why I'm not saying you should be silenced or banned or punished in any way. (How noble and merciful of me, I know.) I'm just meeting you on your level. If you pop into a thread and take some potshots and I think your game is weak, I'm going to challenge you and call you a dingus.

That being said...you seem to believe 1) this kind of series we're seeing wouldn't have been a big story 30 years ago, and 2) the salary cap is a big reason why this series is a reality. Your own words:

" [ . . . ] the entire hockey world is currently talking about a series being played between a team from Tampa Bay and a team from Columbus.  30 years ago a series between these two teams would be an afterthought.  Today it's the best story of the playoffs (so far)."

This makes me feel like either you're arguing in bad faith (which, I mean, ok, fair enough), or you really don't know what you're talking about.

In any case, I've said my piece, so I'll go ahead and drop this. Sorry for derailing the thread, folks.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

MFW I like parity but don't want it

[kipwinger 8,521]

13 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Nah, I'm all for talking s***. It's a big part of what makes sports fandom so great. Which is why I'm doing it and why I'm not saying you should be silenced or banned or punished in any way. (How noble and merciful of me, I know.) I'm just meeting you on your level. If you pop into a thread and take some potshots and I think your game is weak, I'm going to challenge you and call you a dingus.

That being said...you seem to believe 1) this kind of series we're seeing wouldn't have been a big story 30 years ago, and 2) the salary cap is a big reason why this series is a reality. Your own words:

" [ . . . ] the entire hockey world is currently talking about a series being played between a team from Tampa Bay and a team from Columbus.  30 years ago a series between these two teams would be an afterthought.  Today it's the best story of the playoffs (so far)."

This makes me feel like either you're arguing in bad faith (which, I mean, ok, fair enough), or you really don't know what you're talking about.

In any case, I've said my piece, so I'll go ahead and drop this. Sorry for derailing the thread, folks.

I don't think it could have happened 30 years ago because I don't think a team from Columbus and a team from Tampa could both be good enough at the same time to create this scenario without the Cap.  In yesteryear Tampa can't afford this team.  Neither could Columbus.  Neither team would have the amount of elite level talent they have now, both would likely be perennial losers, and as a result wouldn't be in this situation.  The fact that both of these teams have been in the playoff hunt for the last handful of seasons is a testament to the Cap.  20 years ago the Rangers would have signed Stamkos to some MASSIVE contract two years ago, Kucherov probably sniffs free agency too. Now most max contracts are roughly the same and teams can retain their talent.  Remember how everyone says fewer high end players change teams today than in the past?  Why do you suppose that is?  Because there's not much difference in the contract your team offers as opposed to what another team would offer?  And as a result small market teams can retain their talent, and compete, and upset, and win, and all the other stuff we seem to like?

Edited April 15, 2019 by kipwinger

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

In his last 14 playoff games, Kucherov has 2 goals, 5 assists, and is -10

This is the first time CBJ has won 3 games in a post season lol

Starting to think Tampa won't sweep this series

Edited April 15, 2019 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

oof

[Dabura 12,207]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

I don't think it could have happened 30 years ago because I don't think a team from Columbus and a team from Tampa could both be good enough at the same time to create this scenario without the Cap.  In yesteryear Tampa can't afford this team.  Neither could Columbus.  Neither team would have the amount of elite level talent they have now, both would likely be perennial losers, and as a result wouldn't be in this situation.  The fact that both of these teams have been in the playoff hunt for the last handful of seasons is a testament to the Cap.  20 years ago the Rangers would have signed Stamkos to some MASSIVE contract two years ago, now most max contracts are about the same and teams can retain their talent.  Remember how everyone says fewer high end players change teams today than in the past?  Why do you suppose that is?  Because there's not much different in the contract your team offers as opposed to what another team would offer?  And as a result small market teams can retain their talent, and compete, and upset, and win, and all the other stuff we seem to like?

I mean, I get what you're saying, but I think you're stretching on this point.

The last team to win the Cup before the cap was implemented was...the Tampa Bay Lightning. Even if I grant that Tampa and Columbus meeting in the playoffs couldn't have been a thing three decades ago and certainly couldn't have become a big story three decades ago (note: I'm not granting these things), I'm not sure that really has much to do with parity and the salary cap. Tampa's as good as they are largely because they were bad for a few years and reaped the benefits in the draft. Columbus is riding an all-in trade deadline haul. You could say the Lightning were able to keep Stamkos because of the realities of the cap world, but I could point to favorable taxes...

https://hockey-graphs.com/2019/01/08/how-much-do-nhl-players-really-make-part-2-taxes/

Quote

Before he signed an eight-year extension to stay with the Tampa Bay Lightning, the Tampa Bay Times explored how taxes might affect Steven Stamkos’s salary. Since the NHL has a salary cap, teams in states without state tax have the flexibility to offer a lower cap hit while maintaining the same take home, and the Stamkos situation demonstrated that.

The same conversation was had this past off-season about pending free agent John Tavares, who was contemplating leaving the New York Islanders for cities including San Jose which has the highest state tax in the United States, tax-free Dallas, and where he ultimately chose, Toronto.

And it may happen again with big name free agents like Artemi Panarin. If Panarin was looking for a contract with an annual salary of $12 million, he’d take home about $300,000 more if he stayed with Columbus than if he returned to Chicago. He’d lose over a million if he chooses New York over Chicago, but if he decided to go to Florida instead of New York, there would be about a $1.6 million increase in his take home. For teams with less cap flexibility, those numbers can make all the difference. Especially when there are teams without the burden of state taxes vying for the same pending free agent and the actual take-home pay is an influential factor in his decision.

I know all of the pro-cap arguments. I know you can point to something and say, "Cap!" And, well, fair enough. But I'm still not entirely convinced that we're seeing this explosion of new realities and new possibilities and it's all because of the cap system. I think to a large extent we're just seeing the NHL arriving at a place where it probably would've arrived (more or less) without the cap.

I don't think "pseudo-parity" is an entirely inappropriate label for what we have today.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Global warming isn't real in the sense that only a true R-tard would think it's actually a real issue that we need to be concerned about.

As far as "real issues" go? NHL Parity vs NHL Not Parity > Global Warning

LGWs: "Real talk, real issues"

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

As far as "real issues" go? NHL Parity vs NHL Not Parity > Global Warning

LGWs: "Real talk, real issues"

"We're approaching another financial collapse that will likely dwarf the 2008/2009 crisis"

.....

"Howard is average"

Ah

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Got em

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Watching Dabura and Kipwinger go at it is like listening to a promo between Roman Reigns and Randy Orton. 

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Tampa gets swept by the BJ's

Lightning fans cry

Yzerman rejoins the Red Wings

Lightning fans cry more

Yzerman offersheets Brayden Point

Lightning fans start ripping their hair out

[Dabura 12,207]

1 minute ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Tampa gets swept by the BJ's

Lightning fans cry

Yzerman rejoins the Red Wings

Lightning fans cry more

Yzerman offersheets Brayden Point

Lightning fans start ripping their hair out

The way this series is going, Bolts fans would probably gladly take the four 1st-round picks or whatever the compensation would be for Point.

26 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Watching Dabura and Kipwinger go at it is like listening to a promo between Roman Reigns and Randy Orton. 

 

Roman Reigns did nothing wrong.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

9 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Tampa gets swept by the BJ's

Lightning fans cry

Yzerman rejoins the Red Wings

Lightning fans cry more

Yzerman offersheets Brayden Point

Lightning fans start ripping their hair out

If I lived in Tampa, I'd spend too much time in strip clubs to care.  

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

9 minutes ago, Dabura said:

The way this series is going, Bolts fans would probably gladly take the four 1st-round picks or whatever the compensation would be for Point.

Roman Reigns did nothing wrong.

Tampa is gonna have roughly only $5 mill in space this off season unless they make trades. If we threw a short $6 mill AAV contract at Point he could be had for only a first and a third.

[Dabura 12,207]

1 minute ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Tampa is gonna have roughly only $5 mill in space this off season unless they make trades. If we threw a short $6 mill AAV contract at Point he could be had for only a first and a third.

Didn't realize they were so strapped for cap space. lmao