2019 Offseason Rebuild Thread, Pt. 2 - What's the Yzerplan?

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

12 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Never even heard of the site to be honest. I just assumed that it was at least partially true (the Yzerman inquiring part). Obviously knew the ask was way too low... Well that kinda blows...

Oh well... Trouba will be a Red Wing regardless...

Honestly it's Detroit Sports Nation fault for picking the story up (that's the link that was posted here). They're a little more reputable than NHLTradeRumors, but even they're still just fan bloggers sitting on their sofa at home. They basically ran the exact same story citing the Athletic as the source. But then you click on their link to the Athletic story and it takes you to the fake news NHLTradeRumors story that they basically copied.

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

So then why was Cholowski sent down instead of Daley last year? If they could have sent down either player, than why send down the younger, better one? That would he illogical.

If you waive/buyout/demote Daley, how does that benefit Cholowski at this point? He would get top pair minutes in GR. He would get less ice time in Detroit being behind Green, Hronek and DD at the very least. So why not keep him in GR to start the season and bring him up after trading Daley at the TDL? I have no doubt that some playoff team would want to add Daley for depth and his cup pedigree. At least we would get something in return instead of getting nothing burying him in the AHL or buying him out.

If Cholowski was truly NHL ready, he will/would be on the roster. There are plenty of depth players who can be traded/sent down to make room for him. You dont need to buyout a player or bury a vet in most cases.

Pretty much where I'm at with this. Cholowski never really earned his place on the team last year. After the 10-11 game stretch where Cholo was awesome, neither he nor Daley really scored much. Except Daley wasn't getting scored on all the time and is a grown ass man. Cholowski needed more time in GR fersure.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

4 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

This.  Winnepeg needs to replace a top 4 D set to make 8 mil per with a top 4 D set to make 925k.  Trade them the #6 pick and Green.  This allows them a stop gap in Green for a few seasons while their pick develops.  

The problem with the #6 pick is that Byram wont be available and that's way to high to draft Broberg or the Finnish kid when there are much better F prospects available. 

If the Wings were going to trade their first this year for Trouba (I wouldnt) then I would trade down a few spots to like 9 or 10 and get an asset back and then trade pick 9 or 10 to WPG where they should still be able to get one of the better D prospects there.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

51 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

The problem with the #6 pick is that Byram wont be available and that's way to high to draft Broberg or the Finnish kid when there are much better F prospects available. 

If the Wings were going to trade their first this year for Trouba (I wouldnt) then I would trade down a few spots to like 9 or 10 and get an asset back and then trade pick 9 or 10 to WPG where they should still be able to get one of the better D prospects there.

Which makes the deal MORE reasonable for Winnepeg, yah?

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

So then why was Cholowski sent down instead of Daley last year? If they could have sent down either player, than why send down the younger, better one? That would he illogical.

If you waive/buyout/demote Daley, how does that benefit Cholowski at this point? He would get top pair minutes in GR. He would get less ice time in Detroit being behind Green, Hronek and DD at the very least. So why not keep him in GR to start the season and bring him up after trading Daley at the TDL? I have no doubt that some playoff team would want to add Daley for depth and his cup pedigree. At least we would get something in return instead of getting nothing burying him in the AHL or buying him out.

If Cholowski was truly NHL ready, he will/would be on the roster. There are plenty of depth players who can be traded/sent down to make room for him. You dont need to buyout a player or bury a vet in most cases.

Because like I said, Cholowski hit a brick wall, and was sent down for good reason. That doesn't mean he shouldn't get every opportunity to make the team out of camp this year. What does last year have to do with this year? Completely different situation with a new GM. Also, a lot of decisions Holland made were "illogical" or at the very least questionable, when it came to player management over the years.

Like I said, I'm not against Cholowski starting in Grand Rapids, if he isn't one of the six best defensemen in training camp / pre-season. I am against a scrub like Daley taking his spot if he proves he is ready though.

What are we going to get for Daley at the trade deadline? A 5th round pick? I'll take the hit on that one...

Bold - I agree.

Underlined - Name one depth player that could / should be sent down before Daley, who is a year older, coming off a season where he was one of the worst defensemen in the entire league... The only argument I'd hear is Ericsson, but I'm assuming you'd have the same vet > kid philosophy with him... Green is better. Dekeyser is better. Bowey is better. Hronek is better. Cholowski is better.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

59 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Because like I said, Cholowski hit a brick wall, and was sent down for good reason. That doesn't mean he shouldn't get every opportunity to make the team out of camp this year. What does last year have to do with this year? Completely different situation with a new GM. Also, a lot of decisions Holland made were "illogical" or at the very least questionable, when it came to player management over the years.

Like I said, I'm not against Cholowski starting in Grand Rapids, if he isn't one of the six best defensemen in training camp / pre-season. I am against a scrub like Daley taking his spot if he proves he is ready though.

What are we going to get for Daley at the trade deadline? A 5th round pick? I'll take the hit on that one...

Bold - I agree.

Underlined - Name one depth player that could / should be sent down before Daley, who is a year older, coming off a season where he was one of the worst defensemen in the entire league... The only argument I'd hear is Ericsson, but I'm assuming you'd have the same vet > kid philosophy with him... Green is better. Dekeyser is better. Bowey is better. Hronek is better. Cholowski is better.

Last year I would have waived Witkowski or Jensen to make room.

Kronwall and Witkowski are UFAs, so there's ur roster spot this season even with Daley.

This year I would start the season with Green, Hronek, DD, Daley, Ericsson,  Bowey. I would sign Wit to a PTO and if Cholo isnt ready, I send him down to GR and resign Witkowski to 1 year deal to be the 7th D. Trade Daley at the TDL and bring up Cholowski to finish the season on the 2nd or 3rd pair.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Which makes the deal MORE reasonable for Winnepeg, yah?

If the Wings traded the 6th overall pick to WPG and Byram was gone, I guarantee you that they would trade back knowing that they could probably acquire another first or 2nd round pick in return and still have their choice of Broberg or Kokkonen when its their turn to draft.

Thats why I would trade #6 for #9, 10, or 11 plus another late first or 2nd and then flip that 9-11 pick in a package to WPG for Trouba. Then I would still have the acquired late 1st or 2nd to draft another Veleno or McIsaac plus our other 2 second rounders.

[krsmith17 7,191]

19 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Last year I would have waived Witkowski or Jensen to make room.

Kronwall and Witkowski are UFAs, so there's ur roster spot this season even with Daley.

This year I would start the season with Green, Hronek, DD, Daley, Ericsson,  Bowey. I would sign Wit to a PTO and if Cholo isnt ready, I send him down to GR and resign Witkowski to 1 year deal to be the 7th D. Trade Daley at the TDL and bring up Cholowski to finish the season on the 2nd or 3rd pair.

Jensen was one of our better all around defensemen last season, and ended up netting us a 2nd round pick and Bowey at the deadline. You would have waived him over a 35 year old Daley, that was AGAIN, one of the worst defensemen in the entire NHL last season? I can't understand why you're so adamant about keeping Trevor Daley... He's been terrible the past year - year and a half.

Cholowski will not be fighting for the 7th D spot. He will be playing top 6 in Detroit, or Grand Rapids.

What's the point in a PTO for Witkowski? We already know what we have in him. Just sign him to be the 7th defenseman / 13th forward.

[kipwinger 8,521]

5 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Karlsson wears Tigs hats too. It's a cool hat.

Karlsson doesn't wear them in a post game press conference in front of the logo of the team he's currently playing for (but has been reluctant to commit to long-term).  Not that it's a sure thing.  Nothing is until a deal is signed.  But if there was ever enough circumstantial evidence to warrant hedging your bets a bit, it's probably now in the case of Jacob Trouba.  Throwing assets at Winnipeg for this guy is dumb, that's all I'm saying. 

Well, that and the Tigers hat is indeed awesome.  I'd post a pic in mine, but you plebeians don't deserve to gaze upon my superior visage.  @Dabura

Edited May 29, 2019 by kipwinger

[kipwinger 8,521]

6 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I'd be absolutely fine with waiving both Ericsson and Daley provided the kids prove they can handle it full time (I'm assuming Kronwall retires)

DK - Hronek
Cholo - Green
Kaski - Bowey

I think we will sign more Dmen yet though

Even with that lineup, someone has to be your 7th defenseman.  Why not have it be Ericsson or Daley?  As a 7th they wouldn't appreciably hurt the team, and burying both their salaries (plus signing someone else to be the 7th) essentially wastes about 8-9 million bucks of the owner's money.  Something I can't imagine Chris Illitch has much of a stomach for. 

Then again, given that they've spent almost no money on their "District Detroit" pipedream maybe ol' Chris has a few extra (tens of) millions to throw around. 

Edited May 29, 2019 by kipwinger

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

36 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Karlsson doesn't wear them in a post game press conference in front of the logo of the team he's currently playing for (but has been reluctant to commit to long-term).  Not that it's a sure thing.  Nothing is until a deal is signed.  But if there was ever enough circumstantial evidence to warrant hedging your bets a bit, it's probably now in the case of Jacob Trouba.  Throwing assets at Winnipeg for this guy is dumb, that's all I'm saying. 

Well, that and the Tigers hat is indeed awesome.  I'd post a pic in mine, but you plebeians don't deserve to gaze upon my superior visage.  @Dabura

I was just gonna say, I ******* hate baseball and I don't even know who's on the Tigers right now, but I wear that same Tigs hat all the time.

I hope it means he wants to be here, but it's not like he always wears it or anything though. I've seen him in multiple different Jets hats, a U of M hat, the tigs cap, I think a golf hat etc. Bylugien will wear whatever baseball cap is cool that week. And I always see tons of guys on lots of different teams wearing Jays hats.

Can anyone put him within 20 ft of a can of Vernors in the last year? If so, I'll budge and admit he's coming home.

 

 

27 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Even with that lineup, someone has to be your 7th defenseman.  Why not have it be Ericsson or Daley?  As a 7th they wouldn't appreciably hurt the team, and burying both their salaries (plus signing someone else to be the 7th) essentially wastes about 8-9 million bucks of the owner's money.  Something I can't imagine Chris Illitch has much of a stomach for. 

Then again, given that they've spent almost no money on their "District Detroit" pipedream maybe ol' Chris has a few extra (tens of) millions to throw around. 

If I had my way I'd bury Daley, Ericsson, and Kaski and sign Edler and Stralman or something like that. Bowey and Cholowski can share the 7th spot.

Spend to the cap limit baybee

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Jensen was one of our better all around defensemen last season, and ended up netting us a 2nd round pick and Bowey at the deadline. You would have waived him over a 35 year old Daley,

Jensen was a 7th D/3rd pair guy for most of his time in Detroit. If I needed to make a roster spot available for Chilowski at the start of last season,  I would have waived or traded Witkowski first, Jensen 2nd. Daley's decline last season and Jensen's rise are the benefit of having hindsight.  At the time noone could have known what kind of season either of them was going to have.

I have already said what I would do this season. Its not about having some sort of man crush on Daley, its about what I honestly think is best for the team.

Neo's plan:

1. Cholowski gets top pair minutes in GR instead of sheltered minutes in Detroit for the first 2/3 of the season, then a full time roster spot after the TDL. How is this bad?

2. We get something (even if its a lowly late round pick) for Daley instead of nothing. Sound good?

3. Daley, a veteran NHL defenseman who has his name on the friggin Stanley Cup, gets to save face. Too Holland for you?

4. Yzerman gets to look like a good guy, not needlessly casting off a respected member of the NHLPA. Earns more respect from other players and potential UFAs in the process. Not treating players like inventory or numbers on a spread sheet. Helps with future player negotiations.

Nothing I have proposed is in any way damaging to the outcome of any player or the team as a whole. What u r proposing doesnt do anything to help the team in the long run and may actually do more harm than good IMO. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Fuqqin Cholo couldn't even beat out Trevor Daley for a spot, kids a passenger

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

3 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Fuqqin Cholo couldn't even beat out Trevor Daley for a spot, kids a passenger

He'll be up full time at some point and Daley will be gone. Its inevitable that Cholowski will get Daley's spot on the roster. Just a matter of when.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

7 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

He'll be up full time at some point and Daley will be gone. Its inevitable that Cholowski will get Daley's spot on the roster. Just a matter of when.

How about we let Dennis turn 14 first

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

Cholowski was behind Jake Chelios at the end of last year.

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Jensen was a 7th D/3rd pair guy for most of his time in Detroit. If I needed to make a roster spot available for Chilowski at the start of last season,  I would have waived or traded Witkowski first, Jensen 2nd. Daley's decline last season and Jensen's rise are the benefit of having hindsight.  At the time noone could have known what kind of season either of them was going to have.

I have already said what I would do this season. Its not about having some sort of man crush on Daley, its about what I honestly think is best for the team.

Neo's plan:

1. Cholowski gets top pair minutes in GR instead of sheltered minutes in Detroit for the first 2/3 of the season, then a full time roster spot after the TDL. How is this bad?

2. We get something (even if its a lowly late round pick) for Daley instead of nothing. Sound good?

3. Daley, a veteran NHL defenseman who has his name on the friggin Stanley Cup, gets to save face. Too Holland for you?

4. Yzerman gets to look like a good guy, not needlessly casting off a respected member of the NHLPA. Earns more respect from other players and potential UFAs in the process. Not treating players like inventory or numbers on a spread sheet. Helps with future player negotiations.

Nothing I have proposed is in any way damaging to the outcome of any player or the team as a whole. What u r proposing doesnt do anything to help the team in the long run and may actually do more harm than good IMO. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

First off, moving Witkowski would have not opened a spot for Cholowski. You don't move your 7th defenseman to make room for a developing kid to become your 7th defenseman... Witkowski is the perfect guy to sit 75% of the games, not a developing defenseman.

Second, Jensen over Daley was not at all hindsight. I think most Red Wings fans seen the decline in Daley's game before the beginning of last season, which is the case for most average 35+ year old players.

1. Cholowski being sent down to GR, wouldn't be the worst thing for his development, but if he does, I would hope it's because we've acquired another top four defenseman, or a player like Kaski legitimately beats him out of a spot, not because we don't want to hurt Daley's feelings...

2. I personally don't care about 5th, 6th, 7th round draft picks. At least not enough to keep a player like Daley in the lineup for half a season over Cholowski.

3. I also don't care about him having his name on the Cup... Colin Fraser also has his name on the Cup multiple times. Maybe we should acquire him...

4. Yzerman has shown in his time with Tampa that he doesn't give a s*** about "looking like a good guy"... He bought out Vincent Lecavalier and traded Martin St. Louis. Both of which were much better players and bigger pieces to their team at the time.

Maybe he doesn't feel the need to buy-out a player right away, but it would not surprise me at all to see one of Daley or Ericsson moved (traded / waived / bought out) before the start of the season.

Yeah, agree to disagree I guess...

1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Cholowski was behind Jake Chelios at the end of last year.

No he wasn't. They wanted to give a pending UFA a closer look, and even more than that, it was probably a favor to Chris to give his son a taste of the NHL before letting him walk this offseason.

[Valas19 50]

27 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

 

4. Yzerman has shown in his time with Tampa that he doesn't give a s*** about "looking like a good guy"... He bought out Vincent Lecavalier and traded Martin St. Louis. Both of which were much better players and bigger pieces to their team at the time.

 

I'm pretty sure that the St. Louis trade was mostly because Martin was fuming that Yzerman didn't pick him for Team Canada and had become a distraction in the locker room.

[F.Michael 4,590]

1 hour ago, Valas19 said:

I'm pretty sure that the St. Louis trade was mostly because Martin was fuming that Yzerman didn't pick him for Team Canada and had become a distraction in the locker room.

Just like what he had done with Drouin - Stevie Y manages the situation like a pro...He'll do what he thinks is best for the TEAM in the long run, and appears to have no favorites in the locker room.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 hours ago, Valas19 said:

I'm pretty sure that the St. Louis trade was mostly because Martin was fuming that Yzerman didn't pick him for Team Canada and had become a distraction in the locker room.

 

42 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

Just like what he had done with Drouin - Stevie Y manages the situation like a pro...He'll do what he thinks is best for the TEAM in the long run, and appears to have no favorites in the locker room.

MSL requested the trade. It's really NYR's dumb fault for giving Yzerman a 1st, Callahan, and conditional 2nd for him. Marty only played 93 games for the Rangers. Although they were going for the cup at the time and Marty was still good.

There was also some business about MSL wanting to live in Manhattan full time too which is why he waived his NMC to go there specifically. I think Marty already had a condo/apartment there or something, loved Manhattan life, and was sick of Florida.

It all kinda fell into Yzerman's lap on that one.

Edited May 30, 2019 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[krsmith17 7,191]

8 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

It all kinda fell into Yzerman's lap on that one.

This sounds oddly familiar...

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

15 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

 

Can anyone put him within 20 ft of a can of Vernors in the last year? 

Does he drink pahp?

[Prolix 65]

On 5/29/2019 at 6:34 AM, LeftWinger said:

You trade for him now, so you can take advantage of one more year of him be younger. Whether he's coming here one way or the other, why wait until he's a year older? Trade for him, sign him for 8 years starting now or wait and sign him for 7 years when he's a year older. I make the trade and have a younger Trouba. 

And fewer assets.

What 'advantage' does a still-rebuilding team get from 'one more year of him be younger'? If management is convinced he wants to come to Detroit, they'll wait for him.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

3 minutes ago, Prolix said:

And fewer assets.

What 'advantage' does a still-rebuilding team get from 'one more year of him be younger'? If management is convinced he wants to come to Detroit, they'll wait for him.

Money talks.  We shall see.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

This sounds oddly familiar...

Trouba requested a trade to NYR?