2019 Offseason Rebuild Thread, Pt. 2 - What's the Yzerplan?

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, kliq said:

You're not seeing the point, trading AA is not about "trading trash", its about utilizing a valuable asset in order to acquire asset that to the Wings is more valuable.  If Bertuzzi or Mantha were able to bring in a haul or a top 2 D-man, I'd trade them as well, but they dont have the value of AA. If anything, this is giving credit to AA.

You're making its sound as if trading AA and "not trading trash" are mutually exclusive. Yzerman is capable of making multiple moves. OF COURSE if a team offered us a top D-man for Abby or Helm, or Nielsen etc. everyone would jump on that, but those guys are not bringing in a damn thing. If we want to trade for building blocks  to strengthen our team, we may have to trade guys like Mantha, AA etc. It does not mean they are bad, it does not mean I even want to trade them, but a good GM is always looking to improve their team, and if a guy like AA can do that via trade, it is what it is.

I disagree with the bold. I think Mantha has as much or likely even more value than Athanasiou. I personally value Mantha a hell of a lot more than Athanasiou, and I think most teams would as well. They're both very good players, but if we're trading one for help on the back end, it's AA for me for sure.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

1 hour ago, kliq said:

You're not seeing the point, trading AA is not about "trading trash", its about utilizing a valuable asset in order to acquire asset that to the Wings is more valuable.  If Bertuzzi or Mantha were able to bring in a haul or a top 2 D-man, I'd trade them as well, but they dont have the value of AA. If anything, this is giving credit to AA.

You're making its sound as if trading AA and "not trading trash" are mutually exclusive. Yzerman is capable of making multiple moves. OF COURSE if a team offered us a top D-man for Abby or Helm, or Nielsen etc. everyone would jump on that, but those guys are not bringing in a damn thing. If we want to trade for building blocks  to strengthen our team, we may have to trade guys like Mantha, AA etc. It does not mean they are bad, it does not mean I even want to trade them, but a good GM is always looking to improve their team, and if a guy like AA can do that via trade, it is what it is.

Agreed, and for me personally AA is the guy I’d move before the ones you mentioned bert,mantha etc.. 

16 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I disagree with the bold. I think Mantha has as much or likely even more value than Athanasiou. I personally value Mantha a hell of a lot more than Athanasiou, and I think most teams would as well. They're both very good players, but if we're trading one for help on the back end, it's AA for me for sure.

110% agree

 

and on a side note about trading him for a dman that kliq brought up  ,if it was a potential blue chip dman I would but even if it was for a potential top 10 2020 pick I’d do it in a heartbeat with that draft .... it’s a gimmicky 3 on 3 tournament but I liked what I saw and I’m not ass worried anymore about or d I think it’ll be resolved in a few years , holway who didn’t play in a year looked pretty good today and Maybe he can put himself back in the prospect pool, had all but forgotten him , setkov looked good and man he was noticeable with that size, kotkansalo as well ... guys ppl aren’t even paying attention to when dreaming up future d pair of the wings ... anyways things are really looking up in Detroit 

Edited June 29, 2019 by nyqvististhefuture

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

AA is the highest scoring 3rd liner in the league.  Lets trade him.

[kliq 3,755]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

I disagree with the bold. I think Mantha has as much or likely even more value than Athanasiou. I personally value Mantha a hell of a lot more than Athanasiou, and I think most teams would as well. They're both very good players, but if we're trading one for help on the back end, it's AA for me for sure.

For the record, I dont disagree with you. I also am more of a fan of Mantha then AA, and if we could hang on to one I would choose Mantha. Where I do disagree is I get the feeling that other GM's seem to look at AA in a higher regard then Mantha because of the year he had last year.

32 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

AA is the highest scoring 3rd liner in the league.  Lets trade him.

Ya, because he's a top 6 forward who played on the 3rd line. Kids good. I'm fine to keep him, but if we can get a potential top pairing guy for him, I make the move.

[Buppy 1,720]

People want to trade AA because they think he's the most expendable of our good trade assets. But considering that's a pretty short list, it's not an unreasonable thought.

Trading him for a draft pick or prospect would be loser hockey though.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Larry Brooks is saying Trouba is ready to sign a 7-8 million AAV deal for 7 years with the Rags.

I don''t wanna say I told ya so, because it's douchey and he hasn't signed it yet. But yeah, we're probably not getting Trouba ladies and gentlemen. There was never any real evidence connecting him here and now he's probably signing elsewhere.

This is why fan rumors are about as dumb as what Eklund does.

[krsmith17 7,191]

5 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

AA is the highest scoring 3rd liner in the league.  Lets trade him.

You keep saying this as if people are saying we need to "dump" Athanasiou. That's not even close to what people are saying though... Athanasiou is a very good middle six winger / center with a ton of trade value. If we could have traded him for Trouba, I would have done it in a heartbeat. If we could trade him for another top 2/3 defenseman in their prime, you have to at least consider it. No one thinks Athanasiou is a bad player that needs to be traded, but I do agree that he is likely one of our best trade chips right now.

5 hours ago, kliq said:

For the record, I dont disagree with you. I also am more of a fan of Mantha then AA, and if we could hang on to one I would choose Mantha. Where I do disagree is I get the feeling that other GM's seem to look at AA in a higher regard then Mantha because of the year he had last year.

Ya, because he's a top 6 forward who played on the 3rd line. Kids good. I'm fine to keep him, but if we can get a potential top pairing guy for him, I make the move.

What gives you this feeling though? I'd be shocked if any GM's value Athanasiou more than Mantha. Athanasiou had a great year, but Mantha had an ever so slightly better year... He was dominant the last few weeks of the season (our best player, including Larkin), and in the World Championships. I expect a massive year for him this year.

2 hours ago, Buppy said:

People want to trade AA because they think he's the most expendable of our good trade assets. But considering that's a pretty short list, it's not an unreasonable thought.

Trading him for a draft pick or prospect would be loser hockey though.

I agree that trading him for a pick would be dumb, unless it's on the draft floor and it's a top 5-10 pick we're confident enough would become an elite player. I wouldn't trade him for any old 1st round pick though. I'd consider trading him for a prospect, if we're talking a high end defense prospect, but those guys probably aren't being traded anyway...

In saying all that, I'm not in any rush to trade Athanasiou, and I'm not as concerned now, after this draft, to trade him for help on the back end. I'd still do it if the right deal came along, but it would have to be something juicy...

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

5 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Larry Brooks is saying Trouba is ready to sign a 7-8 million AAV deal for 7 years with the Rags.

I don''t wanna say I told ya so, because it's douchey and he hasn't signed it yet. But yeah, we're probably not getting Trouba ladies and gentlemen. There was never any real evidence connecting him here and now he's probably signing elsewhere.

This is why fan rumors are about as dumb as what Eklund does.

Only info I seen on this comes from eklund so I’ll just wait and see when it happens , and like I’ve always said man if we missed out on Trouba it’ll suck but it’s not the end and we just keep moving on with the plan and for those who say we should have traded for him , if we didn’t it didn’t mean he’d have automatically signed with us 

the d for the wings will be more than just fine in 2-3 years 

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

You keep saying this as if people are saying we need to "dump" Athanasiou. That's not even close to what people are saying though... Athanasiou is a very good middle six winger / center with a ton of trade value. If we could have traded him for Trouba, I would have done it in a heartbeat. If we could trade him for another top 2/3 defenseman in their prime, you have to at least consider it. No one thinks Athanasiou is a bad player that needs to be traded, but I do agree that he is likely one of our best trade chips right now.

What gives you this feeling though? I'd be shocked if any GM's value Athanasiou more than Mantha. Athanasiou had a great year, but Mantha had an ever so slightly better year... He was dominant the last few weeks of the season (our best player, including Larkin), and in the World Championships. I expect a massive year for him this year.

I agree that trading him for a pick would be dumb, unless it's on the draft floor and it's a top 5-10 pick we're confident enough would become an elite player. I wouldn't trade him for any old 1st round pick though. I'd consider trading him for a prospect, if we're talking a high end defense prospect, but those guys probably aren't being traded anyway...

In saying all that, I'm not in any rush to trade Athanasiou, and I'm not as concerned now, after this draft, to trade him for help on the back end. I'd still do it if the right deal came along, but it would have to be something juicy...

The problem with that is nobody will trade a top 10 pick on the day of the draft you saw how this draft was and 2020 is even way better ... f*** Colorado got a newhook at 16? Krebs 17? We should be getting a great pick 10-15 anyways 

my thing though is trying to do like Tampa did and targeting a team that believes they’ll make the playoffs but realistically have just a great a shot to miss it and target that teams 1st

flyers comes to mind off the top of my head ,gm is willing to make bold moves ... you got leafs,bruins,Tampa most likely locked in ... rangers and devils got way better , pens and caps in their division as well , habs with price have a good shot getting in ...flyers could just as easily miss the playoffs , whoever we would trade with would give themselves a lottery protection but that’s no big deal if it happens to be a 5-10 pick

anyways I’m not in a rush to trade the guy but I just think 2020 will be superstacked and unless we get a teams blue chip prospect back I’d rather target a top pick , we won’t be trading him for a 25-26 yr old dman to try and get in the playoffs cause it would be pointless at this stage

Im just trying to think longterm and most fans are just in love with the player and not thinking longterm , we have a ton of really good forward prospects on this team that will be fighting for a top 6 role which will make AA expendable in my eyes and I do believe yzerman will trade him eventually unless he Just tanks this year and gets like 15 goals and establishes himself as a future career 3rd liner which I don’t see happening thus becoming a valuable trade piece 

Edited June 29, 2019 by nyqvististhefuture

[amato 3,210]

15 hours ago, mackel said:

We'll have the 6th pick again... if uncle Gary allows it.

Third year picking six in a row? This is Satan's team now. 

[kliq 3,755]

6 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

What gives you this feeling though? I'd be shocked if any GM's value Athanasiou more than Mantha. Athanasiou had a great year, but Mantha had an ever so slightly better year... He was dominant the last few weeks of the season (our best player, including Larkin), and in the World Championships. I expect a massive year for him this year.

Good question lol. I guess I read more about interest in AA then I do about Mantha. With that said, maybe the reason for that is that the Wings have been rumored to trade AA since the stalemate a few years back. I could be wrong about this, though I hope I'm not because if we trade one, I'd rather it be AA so I hope he would bring us a larger return.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

AA is what we were all hoping Nyquist and Tatar would turn out to be.  I cant for the life of me figure out why fans of our team would be wishing for a trade involving him.  Its perplexing.

[LeftWinger 4,961]

 

.I'm sure glad we didn't trade Yzerman after 2 or 3 years of being the most dynamic player on this team.  You don't trade your young guns, period.  You draft and develop. If Yzerman was going to trade AA for a #1 D man, he would've drafted Cozens or Zegras at #6, instead of who he feels is going to be his #1 D Man in the near future.  You "core" D is pretty set to develop right now, if, down the line a couple of those D don't work out, he'll just draft another.  At this point, I say just develop your D core of Hronek, McIssac, Cholowski and Seider.  Again, the ONLY way I trade AA, or anyone from our core, is if they become super diva and cause a problem all the time when they're contract is up.

[krsmith17 7,191]

22 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

The problem with that is nobody will trade a top 10 pick on the day of the draft you saw how this draft was and 2020 is even way better ... f*** Colorado got a newhook at 16? Krebs 17? We should be getting a great pick 10-15 anyways 

my thing though is trying to do like Tampa did and targeting a team that believes they’ll make the playoffs but realistically have just a great a shot to miss it and target that teams 1st

flyers comes to mind off the top of my head ,gm is willing to make bold moves ... you got leafs,bruins,Tampa most likely locked in ... rangers and devils got way better , pens and caps in their division as well , habs with price have a good shot getting in ...flyers could just as easily miss the playoffs , whoever we would trade with would give themselves a lottery protection but that’s no big deal if it happens to be a 5-10 pick

anyways I’m not in a rush to trade the guy but I just think 2020 will be superstacked and unless we get a teams blue chip prospect back I’d rather target a top pick , we won’t be trading him for a 25-26 yr old dman to try and get in the playoffs cause it would be pointless at this stage

Im just trying to think longterm and most fans are just in love with the player and not thinking longterm , we have a ton of really good forward prospects on this team that will be fighting for a top 6 role which will make AA expendable in my eyes and I do believe yzerman will trade him eventually unless he Just tanks this year and gets like 15 goals and establishes himself as a future career 3rd liner which I don’t see happening thus becoming a valuable trade piece 

Trading a 30 goal scorer for a pick, regardless how high you think that pick might be would be foolish. Sure, you might luck out and get a top 15, maybe even top 10 pick, and you could get a high end prospect with that pick. There's still no guarantee (it's actually highly unlikely) that that prospect becomes a better player than Athanasiou...

I've said this before in the whole proven prospect vs late 2nd round pick debate. You should always take the surer thing...

19 hours ago, kliq said:

Good question lol. I guess I read more about interest in AA then I do about Mantha. With that said, maybe the reason for that is that the Wings have been rumored to trade AA since the stalemate a few years back. I could be wrong about this, though I hope I'm not because if we trade one, I'd rather it be AA so I hope he would bring us a larger return.

Yeah, that's only because of the trade rumors swirling around Athanasiou. You rarely hear top players rumored to be traded. It's usually the guys a step below that are in the rumor mill, for the most part. In my opinion, Larkin and Mantha are our two top players, that's why they're never rumored to be traded, and likely won't be traded.

12 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

I'm sure glad we didn't trade Yzerman after 2 or 3 years of being the most dynamic player on this team.  You don't trade your young guns, period.  You draft and develop. If Yzerman was going to trade AA for a #1 D man, he would've drafted Cozens or Zegras at #6, instead of who he feels is going to be his #1 D Man in the near future.  You "core" D is pretty set to develop right now, if, down the line a couple of those D don't work out, he'll just draft another.  At this point, I say just develop your D core of Hronek, McIssac, Cholowski and Seider.  Again, the ONLY way I trade AA, or anyone from our core, is if they become super diva and cause a problem all the time when they're contract is up.

The Athanasiou to Yzerman comparison is too silly to talk about. Not even remotely similar players / situations...

I would say a better comparison, maybe not so much the player, but the situation, is Drouin. We all seen how that played out in Tampa under Yzerman. I'm not saying Athanasiou will be traded, but Yzerman's not going to take any s*** from anyone thinking they're bigger than the team.

No, Yzerman would not have picked Cozens or Zegras because Yzerman has said countless times that he picked Seider, not because he filled a need, but because he believes that he was the best player available. You can choose not to believe that if you want, but I believe him. Seider has all the tools to be an elite defenseman.

I am however okay with, like you said, continuing to develope our young D core of Seider, Hronek, Cholowski and McIsaac. I'm not in any rush to trade Athanasiou at this point, but if he could fetch a top defenseman around the same age or younger, I'd do it. Athanasiou is a really good player, but he's not so good that he's "untouchable". If you can upgrade your team, you do it.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Trading a 30 goal scorer for a pick, regardless how high you think that pick might be would be foolish. Sure, you might luck out and get a top 15, maybe even top 10 pick, and you could get a high end prospect with that pick. There's still no guarantee (it's actually highly unlikely) that that prospect becomes a better player than Athanasiou...

I've said this before in the whole proven prospect vs late 2nd round pick debate. You should always take the surer thing...

 

Well for all we know athanasiou might go back down , he’s had 1 30 goal season so I don’t know if we can expect this every year , although i think he’s got all the tools 

personally I don’t think it’s foolish at all when you look at all the kids we have coming and how we’re going to likely have to create spots and move bodies regardless. How else are we expected to land a top 10 pick? Look at Colorado and how they lucked out , think we’d have a shot at a #7 pick next year let’s say if we offered AA? Not unless he goes off  for 35 goals and 75 pts 

If we didn’t have zadina,veleno,berggren etc.. coming soon and our pipeline is s*** then id obviously keep him around longer , I see just value in him now + all these kids so I’d take a shot , guess I’m more of a risk taker , also doesn’t mean just AA for a first maybe we can get a middle prospect as well or something added , anyways I don’t think he’s getting moved anytime soon or prior to the season I’m just talking but I do think he won’t last in Detroit and when the time comes Stevie will move him imo 

[Akakabuto 1,750]

Does Calgary still need too shed some cap space? Rumors earlier suggested that they might be looking to dump Frolik which would be an great pickup for the Red Wings imho. Don't know if this have been debunked or not.

Could be a reclamation project and possible bait at next years trade deadline. Still only 31 years old.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

3 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Well for all we know athanasiou might go back down , he’s had 1 30 goal season so I don’t know if we can expect this every year , although i think he’s got all the tools 

personally I don’t think it’s foolish at all when you look at all the kids we have coming and how we’re going to likely have to create spots and move bodies regardless. How else are we expected to land a top 10 pick? Look at Colorado and how they lucked out , think we’d have a shot at a #7 pick next year let’s say if we offered AA? Not unless he goes off  for 35 goals and 75 pts 

If we didn’t have zadina,veleno,berggren etc.. coming soon and our pipeline is s*** then id obviously keep him around longer , I see just value in him now + all these kids so I’d take a shot , guess I’m more of a risk taker , also doesn’t mean just AA for a first maybe we can get a middle prospect as well or something added , anyways I don’t think he’s getting moved anytime soon or prior to the season I’m just talking but I do think he won’t last in Detroit and when the time comes Stevie will move him imo 

Trading a rising star hitting his prime with 3 years NHL experience is not a wise move.  I shouldnt have to explain how having a 30 goal scorer with proven ability trumps the 3 unproven prospects you mentioned.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Trading a rising star hitting his prime with 3 years NHL experience is not a wise move.  I shouldnt have to explain how having a 30 goal scorer with proven ability trumps the 3 unproven prospects you mentioned.

No need to explain anything cause I’m good , I’m looking ahead and nowt living in the now, we got a ton of kids coming and fighting for top 6 spots really soon if you cant see AA will likely be a prime target to be moved cause of his worth that’s not my fault 

lets agree to disagree on this one 

[krsmith17 7,191]

5 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Well for all we know athanasiou might go back down , he’s had 1 30 goal season so I don’t know if we can expect this every year , although i think he’s got all the tools 

personally I don’t think it’s foolish at all when you look at all the kids we have coming and how we’re going to likely have to create spots and move bodies regardless. How else are we expected to land a top 10 pick? Look at Colorado and how they lucked out , think we’d have a shot at a #7 pick next year let’s say if we offered AA? Not unless he goes off  for 35 goals and 75 pts 

If we didn’t have zadina,veleno,berggren etc.. coming soon and our pipeline is s*** then id obviously keep him around longer , I see just value in him now + all these kids so I’d take a shot , guess I’m more of a risk taker , also doesn’t mean just AA for a first maybe we can get a middle prospect as well or something added , anyways I don’t think he’s getting moved anytime soon or prior to the season I’m just talking but I do think he won’t last in Detroit and when the time comes Stevie will move him imo 

There's a reason 24 year old 30 goal scorers never get traded for draft picks... It's not smart asset management. IF Yzerman is going to trade Athanasiou (I'm not so sure he will), he's not going to trade him for a pick. He would trade him for a player around the same age or younger, similar to the Drouin for Sergachev trade.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

5 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

There's a reason 24 year old 30 goal scorers never get traded for draft picks... It's not smart asset management. IF Yzerman is going to trade Athanasiou (I'm not so sure he will), he's not going to trade him for a pick. He would trade him for a player around the same age or younger, similar to the Drouin for Sergachev trade.

Ok can we agree as good as he’s looked he’s only scored 30 once , it’s a fact ... now I know he has all the abilities and I been bitching for him to get more top 6 time for years but Let’s not pretend he’s some bonafied star now .... you know my reasoning for the pick , nobody will trade a top 10 pick on the day of the draft itself and look how good this year was and next year will be even better , only way it happens is if he’d get 30-35 goals again and 80 pt season 

I’m not  disagreeing with you that he’d likely trade him in the end for a teams blue chip prospect 19-22 yr old kid , I’d personally take a shot at a team with high odds of not getting in + little extra 

and I’m not like some here I do think when the time comes he’ll be dealt , Cause we’ll be getting veleno,zadina, top pick next year maybe, berggren and others and I’m sure if he has a good season his demands will be outreagous , maybe I’ll be wrong in the end but I see a longterm future for AA as I think we’d value mantha and bert in a top 6 role more atm

[krsmith17 7,191]

10 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Ok can we agree as good as he’s looked he’s only scored 30 once , it’s a fact ... now I know he has all the abilities and I been bitching for him to get more top 6 time for years but Let’s not pretend he’s some bonafied star now .... you know my reasoning for the pick , nobody will trade a top 10 pick on the day of the draft itself and look how good this year was and next year will be even better , only way it happens is if he’d get 30-35 goals again and 80 pt season 

I’m not  disagreeing with you that he’d likely trade him in the end for a teams blue chip prospect 19-22 yr old kid , I’d personally take a shot at a team with high odds of not getting in + little extra 

and I’m not like some here I do think when the time comes he’ll be dealt , Cause we’ll be getting veleno,zadina, top pick next year maybe, berggren and others and I’m sure if he has a good season his demands will be outreagous , maybe I’ll be wrong in the end but I see a longterm future for AA as I think we’d value mantha and bert in a top 6 role more atm

The "well, he's only scored 30 goals once" argument is dumb. He scored 30 last season at the age of 24. No one is saying he's going to be a perennial 30 goal scorer, but he should be capable of scoring 25+ every season for the next 5+ years. You don't trade that away for a draft pick... Anyway, I'm done arguing this with you. I know you're all about acquiring ALL the draft picks, and I also know it's not going to happen, so whatever...

[Dabura 12,207]

I dunno, I feel like talking about trading AA is putting the cart before the horse. If AA could fetch us a really good young defenseman and/or he acts like a dingus in his next contract negotiations, I think about moving him. Otherwise? meh. We're a bad team in the middle of a rebuild and Yzerman doesn't appear to have much of an appetite for trying to speed up the timeline by making some dramatic moves.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Hockey archives ranks Seiders team as 8th best in Europe

 

 

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

The "well, he's only scored 30 goals once" argument is dumb. He scored 30 last season at the age of 24. No one is saying he's going to be a perennial 30 goal scorer, but he should be capable of scoring 25+ every season for the next 5+ years. You don't trade that away for a draft pick... Anyway, I'm done arguing this with you. I know you're all about acquiring ALL the draft picks, and I also know it's not going to happen, so whatever...

How’s it dumb? It’s a fact isn’t it ? I’m not making s*** up ... we don’t know 100% if he’s gonna have a repeat performance , we hope he does 

Good ... whatever , we’re done here 

5 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I dunno, I feel like talking about trading AA is putting the cart before the horse. If AA could fetch us a really good young defenseman and/or he acts like a dingus in his next contract negotiations, I think about moving him. Otherwise? meh. We're a bad team in the middle of a rebuild and Yzerman doesn't appear to have much of an appetite for trying to speed up the timeline by making some dramatic moves.

Oh I don’t think he’s in a rush at all , I’m expecting us to move the Daley’s and greens etc... by next deadline that’s about it , maybe take a risk on a one year player like nicushkkn or who Evers available  for cheap

[krsmith17 7,191]

12 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

How’s it dumb? It’s a fact isn’t it ? I’m not making s*** up ... we don’t know 100% if he’s gonna have a repeat performance , we hope he does 

Good ... whatever , we’re done here 

What's a better bet? Athanasiou continues his upward trajectory for the next several seasons? Or unknown draft pick, maybe in the top 10-15, is one day better than Athanasiou? I'll take the former... I'm sure you'll take the latter, because "you like to take risks"...