2019 Offseason Rebuild Thread, Pt. 2 - What's the Yzerplan?

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

13 hours ago, Dabura said:

A hockey fan doing what he loves: talking hockey. I like hearing what he has to say about stuff. When it comes to the Wings, it's nice to get a well-informed outsider's take.

Ya that’s what I figured just surprised after I noticed how many subscribers he has ... gotta love the internet haha

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

1 hour ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Ya that’s what I figured just surprised after I noticed how many subscribers he has ... gotta love the internet haha

The guy is pretty cool

[mackel 681]

1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

The guy is pretty cool

I liked that he had a realistic view of Zadina... no kool-aid, no rose colored glasses, just the facts mam, just the facts.

[Dabura 12,207]

4 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Ya that’s what I figured just surprised after I noticed how many subscribers he has ... gotta love the internet haha

There's a market for this kind of content! It's why I've joked about starting an LGRW.com YouTube channel where we all get on Skype or whatever and just yell at each other.

[Dabura 12,207]

1 hour ago, mackel said:

I liked that he had a realistic view of Zadina... no kool-aid, no rose colored glasses, just the facts mam, just the facts.

I'd have to go back and rewatch the video, but, working from memory, I feel like his Zadina take was basically "He had an ok season, slightly disappointing given all the HYPE! He may make the team out of camp and he may play his way into a top-six role. We'll see." Which, I mean, yeah. I don't think there are many Wings fans who'd disagree with any of that. (I certainly don't.)

What I found especially interesting is that he seems to believe Yzerman would try to move out a firmly entrenched veteran like Nielsen if Veleno looks like he's ready to rock and roll as an NHL centerman. (Which, funnily enough, addresses a question @LeftWinger posed here a couple of days ago.) To me, a Wings fan, the idea that a Wings GM would make that kind of a move to accomodate a kid with zero pro experience seems silly, especially when you consider the fact that Veleno is very comfortable playing on the wing. But, to Hockey Guy's credit, he follows every team closely and he probably has a better sense of what Yzerman would do in that situation.

[Wheelchairsuperhero 1,453]

7 hours ago, Dabura said:

I'd have to go back and rewatch the video, but, working from memory, I feel like his Zadina take was basically "He had an ok season, slightly disappointing given all the HYPE! He may make the team out of camp and he may play his way into a top-six role. We'll see." Which, I mean, yeah. I don't think there are many Wings fans who'd disagree with any of that. (I certainly don't.)

What I found especially interesting is that he seems to believe Yzerman would try to move out a firmly entrenched veteran like Nielsen if Veleno looks like he's ready to rock and roll as an NHL centerman. (Which, funnily enough, addresses a question @LeftWinger posed here a couple of days ago.) To me, a Wings fan, the idea that a Wings GM would make that kind of a move to accomodate a kid with zero pro experience seems silly, especially when you consider the fact that Veleno is very comfortable playing on the wing. But, to Hockey Guy's credit, he follows every team closely and he probably has a better sense of what Yzerman would do in that situation.

I agree with the bolded. 

Also as much as I'd love to see Veleno surprise and make the squad, and won't doubt the possibility, I'm not sold that he's ready. Love him as a prospect and the direction he's trending, but at this point I'm down for him being on the Griffins. Like you said too, even if he makes the squad I wouldn't be shocked to see him on the wing to start. 

[MileHighWingsGuy 178]

Veleno needs to be on the roster this fall. He’s ready.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

So much for shattenkirk , don’t know how much a big of an opportunity he’ll get on a stacked team, if he starts to falter he’ll get f***ed ... ah well f*** him

jake Gardner 6 x 1 year and shipped on deadline day for high picks ... come on Stevie

[LeftWinger 4,961]

Steve isn't signing anyone else.I know we've could've done better than $1.75M, but Shatty 100% wants a Cup, not a rebuild team. Anybody of any quality is a pipedream until we're done rebuilding and are contending on a regular basis. Either way, I wish he'd ditch E and Daley, not for cap space but for my sanity. I'd rather watch a throw awsy season with younger players. hopefully those two are healthy scratches most of the year and we see some kids.

[Dabura 12,207]

17 hours ago, Wheelchairsuperhero said:

I agree with the bolded. 

Also as much as I'd love to see Veleno surprise and make the squad, and won't doubt the possibility, I'm not sold that he's ready. Love him as a prospect and the direction he's trending, but at this point I'm down for him being on the Griffins. Like you said too, even if he makes the squad I wouldn't be shocked to see him on the wing to start. 

Honestly, I'm expecting all three of Rasmussen, Zadina, Veleno to start in Grand Rapids; I can't point to any one of them and say the AHL is definitely not the place for him. Maybe training camp results will say otherwise, but I'm not counting on it.

I'd say the one thing these kids have working in their favor is the fact that we only have three or four proven scorers in our forward group: Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi (?), Athanasiou. Beyond them, it's a wasteland. It looks so bad on paper that I almost start to miss Vanek. So, to me, it's looking like the non-AA second-line wing spot should be up for grabs. Rasmussen's not a fit there, but Zadina or Veleno may be able to win that job. And all of this is assuming everyone's healthy at the end of training camp, which probably won't be the case.

In any case, the main consideration has to be "What's best for this player's development"?

[kipwinger 8,524]

1 hour ago, Dabura said:

Honestly, I'm expecting all three of Rasmussen, Zadina, Veleno to start in Grand Rapids; I can't point to any one of them and say the AHL is definitely not the place for him. Maybe training camp results will say otherwise, but I'm not counting on it.

I'd say the one thing these kids have working in their favor is the fact that we only have three or four proven scorers in our forward group: Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi (?), Athanasiou. Beyond them, it's a wasteland. It looks so bad on paper that I almost start to miss Vanek. So, to me, it's looking like the non-AA second-line wing spot should be up for grabs. Rasmussen's not a fit there, but Zadina or Veleno may be able to win that job. And all of this is assuming everyone's healthy at the end of training camp, which probably won't be the case.

In any case, the main consideration has to be "What's best for this player's development"?

Why would you say Rasmussen isn't a fit but Zadina or Veleno is?

[Euro_Twins 4,476]

On 8/4/2019 at 1:43 PM, Dabura said:

There's a market for this kind of content! It's why I've joked about starting an LGRW.com YouTube channel where we all get on Skype or whatever and just yell at each other.

That doesnt sound like a joke to me. Dont play with my emotions. 

[Dabura 12,207]

15 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Why would you say Rasmussen isn't a fit but Zadina or Veleno is?

In theory, Zadina or Veleno would probably be a better fit on a scoring line, given their strengths. Rasmussen projects as a power play specialist and he isn't even that at this point in time. Got caved in this past season, though he did score some clutch goals.

I'm open to any possibility tho. I'd be thrilled if all three of these mofos steal some jobs straight out of training camp.

[kipwinger 8,524]

2 minutes ago, Dabura said:

In theory, Zadina or Veleno would probably be a better fit on a scoring line, given their strengths. Rasmussen projects as a power play specialist and he isn't even that at this point in time. Got caved in this past season, though he did score some clutch goals.

I'm open to any possibility tho. I'd be thrilled if all three of these mofos steal some jobs straight out of training camp.

I see your line of thinking, which seems to be that both of those guys are better offensive players at this point than Rasmussen.  But I'm not sure that's the only factor.  Puck retrieval is a big factor in maintaining offensive zone time, and I don't really like Filppula/Nielsen with AA and Zadina or to a lesser extent Veleno.  Not sure who's going to win those board battles a la Bertuzzi and Mantha on that top line. Bertuzzi is actually a great example, he's a good offensive player no doubt but not better than AA.  Yet the top line works better with Bert on it because he helps maintain offensive possession.  Ideally I'd want Mantha, AA, and Zadina on different lines with Bert, Ras, and maybe Svech (or some other puck retrieval complimentary winger) opposite them.  Ras may not be the best option right now, but I'm afraid any combination of AA, Zadina, Veleno gets physically dominated in the O-zone.

[Dabura 12,207]

13 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I see your line of thinking, which seems to be that both of those guys are better offensive players at this point than Rasmussen.  But I'm not sure that's the only factor.  Puck retrieval is a big factor in maintaining offensive zone time, and I don't really like Filppula/Nielsen with AA and Zadina or to a lesser extent Veleno.  Not sure who's going to win those board battles a la Bertuzzi and Mantha on that top line. Bertuzzi is actually a great example, he's a good offensive player no doubt but not better than AA.  Yet the top line works better with Bert on it because he helps maintain offensive possession.  Ideally I'd want Mantha, AA, and Zadina on different lines with Bert, Ras, and maybe Svech (or some other puck retrieval complimentary winger) opposite them.  Ras may not be the best option right now, but I'm afraid any combination of AA, Zadina, Veleno gets physically dominated in the O-zone.

I think Rasmussen is going to be a board-battling, crease-crashing monster at some point soon, but he looked like a very tall boy among men this past season and I'm guessing he's still got some adjusting to do. He was pushed around all over the ice. I wasn't thrilled with his skating or his two-way game. He's never been an especially good playmaker.

Veleno's an outstanding skater, decent size, good two-way game, grittier than people give him credit for, solid playmaker. Zadina's gotta tighten up his play in the defensive zone, but the goal-scoring ability and playmaking ability are undeniable. I honestly don't know that there's much (any?) separation between these three right now, but I'm just not feeling Rasmussen in a heavy-lifting top-six role right now. We can point to Bertuzzi, but it took him a while to become 2018-19 Bertuzzi.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Dabura

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

Both players will be lucky to play in the nhl at this point and we have a ton of bottom 6 guys but just curious if anyone would do Dominic turgeon for Michael mccarron  one for one or basically at this point stand pat and whatever happens happens 

[kipwinger 8,524]

4 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Both players will be lucky to play in the nhl at this point and we have a ton of bottom 6 guys but just curious if anyone would do Dominic turgeon for Michael mccarron  one for one or basically at this point stand pat and whatever happens happens 

Why bother?

[krsmith17 7,191]

30 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Both players will be lucky to play in the nhl at this point and we have a ton of bottom 6 guys but just curious if anyone would do Dominic turgeon for Michael mccarron  one for one or basically at this point stand pat and whatever happens happens 

Sure.

26 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Why bother?

Why not?

[kipwinger 8,524]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

Sure.

Why not?

If the premise of your trade is "neither of these guys are going to play in the NHL" and you've just re-signed Turgeon (indicating you're happy with this play at the AHL level) then what would you hope to gain from the transaction? 

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

18 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

If the premise of your trade is "neither of these guys are going to play in the NHL" and you've just re-signed Turgeon (indicating you're happy with this play at the AHL level) then what would you hope to gain from the transaction? 

Both guys at this point of their careers will be lucky to play in the nhl for some time , who knows maybe a change of scenery might benefit one of them ? I suggested the deal for that reason as well as turgeon being from mtl and mccaron from Detroit so who knows maybe it’ll work out for both guys who would be maybe more motivated being in front of family and friends?

i don’t know if we’re satisfied with turgeon ,he’s 23 so this is basically his year to show us whether we should keep him going forward , same as mccaron with the habs , big picture though with the roster we have and the kids coming the chances of either sticking long term are slim to none but I’m just thinking of giving the 6’6 hometown kid a crack of being on the 4th line longterm and if he flops so be it ... whether it’s turgeon or mccaron getting that chance doesn’t bother me just something I thought of throwing it out there and see what people think

[F.Michael 4,590]

On 8/4/2019 at 12:43 PM, Dabura said:

There's a market for this kind of content! It's why I've joked about starting an LGRW.com YouTube channel where we all get on Skype or whatever and just yell at each other.

I for one wouldn’t want to face the wrath of Kipwinger 

[krsmith17 7,191]

53 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

If the premise of your trade is "neither of these guys are going to play in the NHL" and you've just re-signed Turgeon (indicating you're happy with this play at the AHL level) then what would you hope to gain from the transaction? 

It wasn't "my" trade proposal... 

Like I said though, why not?... These sorts of minor league trades are made all the time. Neither are likely to be anything more than depth guys. Give the Michigan native a chance to play in Michigan (Detroit or Grand Rapids) and give the Quebec native a chance to play in Quebec (Montreal or Laval)...

[LeftWinger 4,961]

1 hour ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Both players will be lucky to play in the nhl at this point and we have a ton of bottom 6 guys but just curious if anyone would do Dominic turgeon for Michael mccarron  one for one or basically at this point stand pat and whatever happens happens 

Yes, I would like to see that.

7 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Give the Michigan native a chance to play in Michigan (Detroit or Grand Rapids) and give the Quebec native a chance to play in Quebec (Montreal or Laval)..

For this reason here.  I am sure Turgeon would LOVE to be dealt to the MTL Organization, and McCarron the same here. When the players like Abby, Helm and disney.com are gone, I'd much rather see McCarron here in a 4th line role than Turgeon.  For no other reason to see a local kid play for his hometown team. PLUS, you never know what could happen.  Imagine the might behind a line with McCarron and Rasmussen? Big boys!

[kipwinger 8,524]

22 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

It wasn't "my" trade proposal... 

Like I said though, why not?... These sorts of minor league trades are made all the time. Neither are likely to be anything more than depth guys. Give the Michigan native a chance to play in Michigan (Detroit or Grand Rapids) and give the Quebec native a chance to play in Quebec (Montreal or Laval)...

"Your" in the universal sense. I know it wasn't your specific trade proposal.  Also, I don't care whether or not Turgeon wants to play in Montreal or vice versa.  This a business.  If it doesn't improve the organization then it's not worth bothering with.  Also, the Red Wings might very well like Turgeon's game.  I mean, they drafted him AND re-signed him.  So trading him because McCarron is from Michigan seems pretty dumb unless they like McCarron just as much or more, and there's nothing to indicate that they do (having passed on him in the draft). 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

You know it's the middle of August when.........................