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2019 Offseason Rebuild Thread, Pt. 2 - What's the Yzerplan?

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6 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Yet outside this seasons 53 games he’s played 71+ every season , the fact of bringing up he’s 4 years younger is to say if burns at 33 can be this productive Karlsson sure as s*** will be

There's no way for you to know this. Burns is still extremely effective because he's an absolute beast. He's similar to Chara in that he may be effective into his late 30's / early 40's. That's rare in today's game. It's possible that Karlsson could end up being one of those players, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Again though, age is the bigger concern for me. In the situation we're in, I'll take the younger player just entering his prime over the older player soon closing in on his prime.

I also think Trouba at $6.5-7M brings better value than Karlsson at $10.5-11M.

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7 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

and you don’t think teams saw what Vegas did and learned? There’s already talk of how Seattle will get f***ed over now cause teams saw what happened with Vegas and won’t make the same mistake , many strange things have happened but trading Foote to get rid of Callahan with one year deal left has a zero % chance of happening, now if your talking a hockey trade Foote for a young d prospect or a 1st or an impact player coming back that’s a different story 

No, you're right... No team will ever trade a top prospect again, because they seen what happened with Anaheim / Theodore... :rolleyes:

I've said several times that it's unlikely they would be willing to trade Foote, but it's certainly higher than "zero percent"... A hockey trade is exactly what I was talking about... I specifically said we'd be giving up two picks (our 2019 2nd and Washington's 2020 3rd), which oddly enough is pretty damn close to what Carolina gave up to get Teravainen for taking Bickell's contract...

You're always talking about trading for a top defensive prospect like Bean or Fabbro or whoever else. What makes you think they could be available, but Foote for whatever reason is completely off limits? It makes no sense...

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7 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

not sure if you saw the world juniors and seen beecher play but the kids got huge upside and I’m sure  if you’d ask Ppl in the hockey world they’d say they’d pick beecher if they had to pick between one or the other , so what that raddysh was drafted 3 years ago and finished first pro season and got 40 pts? We suppose to be exited now?pretty sure beecher would be more we’ll known around the hockey circles than raddysh

What makes this kid such a special prospect that you keep insisting we ask for him , if he’s that good surely Tampa would decline , I haven’t seen you say anything you like about him just that you keep insisting we demand this kid in a trade and I just can’t understand why , anyways it’s your perogative to like who you like I’d personally try and flip a pick and get the 27th if we can 

I'm sure if I asked people in the hockey world, they would tell me that ANY player that put up respectable numbers in his first year pro, is more likely to develop into an NHL player than any future 2nd round pick...

There's nothing "special" about Raddysh. You're acting as if I'm saying he's elite or something... He's a very good prospect that will likely be a middle six winger, which again, is more than you should expect from most 2nd round picks.

What do I like about him? He's a big, strong power-forward, that skates well and isn't afraid to go to the net. He has a heavy shot and is a good passer. 

You say that Foote is off limits, and Raddysh isn't worth it... Whatever you say man...

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7 hours ago, Buppy said:

That's some very inconsistent logic. You think we're going to pick someone in 2020 who will make us dominant and a playoff team for 20-30 years (longer than he will even be on the roster), yet the same team just with a later 2020 pick can only toy with the playoffs. It doesn't make any sense.

It doesn't matter how good or bad you think our current team and prospects are/will be. One player, no matter how good, is not going to be the difference between dominating and mediocre. Even if by some miracle we did end up winning the lottery .vs picking 20th, it wouldn't, and again the odds of 1st OA, or even top-3 are very slim. 

It’s not one single player alone, It’s a collective with this draft as well as hopefully the 3 2nds next year (if sj resigns nyquist) and hopefully future drafts where we hit late, free agency etc..  that will make us a team that can compete for the cup hopefully for 20-30 years like we previously did, never said we’d hit a homerun with the 2020 pick and we’d be cup contenders the next year but we’re headed the right way , if we start making the playoffs next year we’ll just be another bubble team that’s around yearly, we have to get this rebuild done right 

 

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

There's no way for you to know this. Burns is still extremely effective because he's an absolute beast. He's similar to Chara in that he may be effective into his late 30's / early 40's. That's rare in today's game. It's possible that Karlsson could end up being one of those players, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Again though, age is the bigger concern for me. In the situation we're in, I'll take the younger player just entering his prime over the older player soon closing in on his prime.

I also think Trouba at $6.5-7M brings better value than Karlsson at $10.5-11M.

Yet you seem to know Karlsson won’t ? Karlsson isn’t a beast ? He’s been putting up big numbers ever since he’s been in the league on a yearly basis ... what makes you so sure burns can be productive later on and not Karlsson? Only cause burns has a similar  build as chara? Karlsson isn’t as damaged goods as you seem to think he is and will be .... f***en mike green was on pace for 50 pts last year at 33 now your gonna tell me you don’t think Karlsson will be as productive as green at 33? Come on man Karlsson is on an elite level, ppl time alone he will get his 50 pts 

 

im not talking about taking one player or the other , in a best case scenario we get both without giving up nothing

trouba will demand for 8-9 for sure

Edited by nyqvististhefuture

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2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

No, you're right... No team will ever trade a top prospect again, because they seen what happened with Anaheim / Theodore... :rolleyes:

I've said several times that it's unlikely they would be willing to trade Foote, but it's certainly higher than "zero percent"... A hockey trade is exactly what I was talking about... I specifically said we'd be giving up two picks (our 2019 2nd and Washington's 2020 3rd), which oddly enough is pretty damn close to what Carolina gave up to get Teravainen for taking Bickell's contract...

You're always talking about trading for a top defensive prospect like Bean or Fabbro or whoever else. What makes you think they could be available, but Foote for whatever reason is completely off limits? It makes no sense...

God your ridiculous , I just finished telling you teams might trade a top prospect but it’ll be for another prospect or star player not for a f***en player with one year left on his contract , it’s nice to have dreams but you should be more realistic heck even I been dreaming there’s no way Tampa will trade the 27th pick for a guy with one year left on his deal , best case scenario Detroit or anyone else will probably end up with a 3rd when it’s all said and done 

 

fine ... 0.5% chance Foote gets moved to get rid of a player with 1 year left on his deal  ... Tampa won’t move their 14th overall pick and best d prospect with hedman and McDonough creeping 30 to get rid of a guy with one year left on his deal , even if they get a 54 and 66pick , would you get rid of cholowski to get rid of abdelkader? I wouldn’t and he has 4 more years on his deal so why the f*** would Tampa do it to get rid of a guy with one year on his contract . Come on 

 

when I talked about bean and fabbro , realistically it’s a pipedream that’ll never happen but I wasn’t talking about trading for them by taking Scott darling or something stupid , was talking about trading AA+ svechnikov or some type of deal not expecting those guys to be given to us for taking a bad contract

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2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I'm sure if I asked people in the hockey world, they would tell me that ANY player that put up respectable numbers in his first year pro, is more likely to develop into an NHL player than any future 2nd round pick...

There's nothing "special" about Raddysh. You're acting as if I'm saying he's elite or something... He's a very good prospect that will likely be a middle six winger, which again, is more than you should expect from most 2nd round picks.

What do I like about him? He's a big, strong power-forward, that skates well and isn't afraid to go to the net. He has a heavy shot and is a good passer. 

You say that Foote is off limits, and Raddysh isn't worth it... Whatever you say man...

You should ask them how josh hosang Is  doing , or those guys with great ahl numbers at 21 over second rounds like pk,Weber etc...... we have enough “middle six” guys in our pipeline coming why would we have to absolutely ask for one back? I’d rather get a top 60 pick and try make our own luck and find someone who can be a top pairing dman or top line player over the 58th pick drafted kid 

Thx for letting me know at least why you like the kid , still don’t think we should target him imo 

and you seem to think Foote will be easily just thrown away for picks,Callahan ...”whatever” “you” “say” 

 

Fyi cup contending teams like Tampa heavily count on top prospects to keep coming in to keep them a competitive team going for the cup , if these guys are the top prospects on the club they won’t just trade them away to get rid of a guy with 1 yr left or for late 2nds , hey but wtf do I know 

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20 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Fyi cup contending teams like Tampa heavily count on top prospects to keep coming in to keep them a competitive team going for the cup , if these guys are the top prospects on the club they won’t just trade them away to get rid of a guy with 1 yr left or for late 2nds , hey but wtf do I know 

That's the thing with Foote. Like I said, I'm not sure that they can afford to lose a top prospect lile him unless they're getting something really juicy in return. I'm assuming they'd be able to dump the Callahan contract without being forced to include Foote.

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35 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Yet you seem to know Karlsson won’t ? Karlsson isn’t a beast ? He’s been putting up big numbers ever since he’s been in the league on a yearly basis ... what makes you so sure burns can be productive later on and not Karlsson? Only cause burns has a similar  build as chara? Karlsson isn’t as damaged goods as you seem to think he is and will be .... f***en mike green was on pace for 50 pts last year at 33 now your gonna tell me you don’t think Karlsson will be as productive as green at 33? Come on man Karlsson is on an elite level, ppl time alone he will get his 50 pts 

When I say Burns is a "freak" or a "beast", I'm very clearly talking about him physically / his durability, not his skill level... I don't "know" anything about what will happen in the future (unlike you apparently)... I'm just saying that I wouldn't sign Karlsson in part due to the risk of his injuries. You don't see his injuries, age or cost as a risk? Good for you...

42 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

im not talking about taking one player or the other , in a best case scenario we get both without giving up nothing

"In a best case scenario". In a realistic scenario, we get one if we're lucky. Given the choice, after taking everything into consideration, I take Trouba.

25 year old Trouba at $6.5-7M for the next 7 years, 50ish points and solid defense.

>

29 year old Karlsson at $10.5-11M for the next 7 years, 70ish points and poor defense.

Just what I would do. I'm not sure why you're getting so bent out of shape because I wouldn't want to sign Erik Karlsson...

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38 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

God your ridiculous , I just finished telling you teams might trade a top prospect but it’ll be for another prospect or star player not for a f***en player with one year left on his contract , it’s nice to have dreams but you should be more realistic heck even I been dreaming there’s no way Tampa will trade the 27th pick for a guy with one year left on his deal , best case scenario Detroit or anyone else will probably end up with a 3rd when it’s all said and done 

fine ... 0.5% chance Foote gets moved to get rid of a player with 1 year left on his deal  ... Tampa won’t move their 14th overall pick and best d prospect with hedman and McDonough creeping 30 to get rid of a guy with one year left on his deal , even if they get a 54 and 66pick , would you get rid of cholowski to get rid of abdelkader? I wouldn’t and he has 4 more years on his deal so why the f*** would Tampa do it to get rid of a guy with one year on his contract . Come on 

when I talked about bean and fabbro , realistically it’s a pipedream that’ll never happen but I wasn’t talking about trading for them by taking Scott darling or something stupid , was talking about trading AA+ svechnikov or some type of deal not expecting those guys to be given to us for taking a bad contract

I brought up Bickell / Teravainen twice now, and you still think it's impossible for a team desperate to move a contract to move a top prospect with it. Bolland / Crouse is another example off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others as well. Foote is a very good prospect, and AGAIN, they likely won't have to include him to trade Callahan's contract. But it absolutely is possible and Yzerman should be asking about him.

Would I trade Cholowski to get rid of Abdelkader's contract now? As a rebuilding team? Hell no! Would I make that trade if we were favorites to win the Cup, and needed cap space to add one more piece to put us over the top? Absolutely!

Again, keep playing it off as if I said Callahan and Foote to Detroit for nothing. There are picks involved and I'd even swap out the 3rd for another early 2nd in 2020. What I'm suggesting is not out of the realm of possibility. It's not highly likely, but definitely possible. Because again, it's been done before, and will likely be done again...

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38 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

You should ask them how josh hosang Is  doing , or those guys with great ahl numbers at 21 over second rounds like pk,Weber etc...... we have enough “middle six” guys in our pipeline coming why would we have to absolutely ask for one back? I’d rather get a top 60 pick and try make our own luck and find someone who can be a top pairing dman or top line player over the 58th pick drafted kid 

Thx for letting me know at least why you like the kid , still don’t think we should target him imo 

I don't give a s*** how Josh Hosang is doing? What does that have to do with anything? You name one player that had a similar type season and was a bust and I'm supposed to think the same thing could / will happen with Raddysh. 

For every stud you can name that came out of the 2nd round, I can name 5-10 duds that came out of the 2nd round... which is why it's so difficult to pull elite talent beyond the top half of the first round of the draft.

I know, I know, you'd prefer to try your own luck in the draft... My point is, you're going to come up short more often than not with that strategy. 

You're literally the only person that thinks Beecher has top line potential. Otherwise he would be a surefire top 10 pick. He will likely go in the 2nd round, because like Raddysh, there are question marks in his game. I'll say it again, Raddysh has a higher probability of turning into an NHL regular than most every kid drafted outside of the first round in the upcoming draft.

45 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

 and you seem to think Foote will be easily just thrown away for picks,Callahan ...”whatever” “you” “say” 

Fyi cup contending teams like Tampa heavily count on top prospects to keep coming in to keep them a competitive team going for the cup , if these guys are the top prospects on the club they won’t just trade them away to get rid of a guy with 1 yr left or for late 2nds , hey but wtf do I know 

Yeah, that's exactly what I said... :rolleyes:

No, Cup contending teams like Tampa, can afford to trade away top prospects to better their odds of actually winning the Cup...

Do you think Tampa would trade Foote straight up for a signed Erik Karlsson? Yes? Well why wouldn't they trade him in a package that frees up the cap space to allow them to sign Erik Karlsson? I think they would. AGAIN, not saying that's what's going to happen, but in theory it could...

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27 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I brought up Bickell / Teravainen twice now, and you still think it's impossible for a team desperate to move a contract to move a top prospect with it. Bolland / Crouse is another example off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others as well. Foote is a very good prospect, and AGAIN, they likely won't have to include him to trade Callahan's contract. But it absolutely is possible and Yzerman should be asking about him.

Would I trade Cholowski to get rid of Abdelkader's contract now? As a rebuilding team? Hell no! Would I make that trade if we were favorites to win the Cup, and needed cap space to add one more piece to put us over the top? Absolutely!

Again, keep playing it off as if I said Callahan and Foote to Detroit for nothing. There are picks involved and I'd even swap out the 3rd for another early 2nd in 2020. What I'm suggesting is not out of the realm of possibility. It's not highly likely, but definitely possible. Because again, it's been done before, and will likely be done again...

Ok whatever you say bud , were not gonna agree on this one and I’m sure your as fed up as I am with the back and forth on this nonsense , we know where each other stand on this ... I’m done 

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21 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't give a s*** how Josh Hosang is doing? What does that have to do with anything? You name one player that had a similar type season and was a bust and I'm supposed to think the same thing could / will happen with Raddysh. 

For every stud you can name that came out of the 2nd round, I can name 5-10 duds that came out of the 2nd round... which is why it's so difficult to pull elite talent beyond the top half of the first round of the draft.

I know, I know, you'd prefer to try your own luck in the draft... My point is, you're going to come up short more often than not with that strategy. 

You're literally the only person that thinks Beecher has top line potential. Otherwise he would be a surefire top 10 pick. He will likely go in the 2nd round, because like Raddysh, there are question marks in his game. I'll say it again, Raddysh has a higher probability of turning into an NHL regular than most every kid drafted outside of the first round in the upcoming draft.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said... :rolleyes:

No, Cup contending teams like Tampa, can afford to trade away top prospects to better their odds of actually winning the Cup...

Do you think Tampa would trade Foote straight up for a signed Erik Karlsson? Yes? Well why wouldn't they trade him in a package that frees up the cap space to allow them to sign Erik Karlsson? I think they would. AGAIN, not saying that's what's going to happen, but in theory it could...

I’m sure I can name countless other hosangs and raddysh can very well likely be another ... the wings have a lot of forward prospects with top 6 upside as is and I’d personally rather keep the pick than a raddysh and try and land a top line or d pair  prospect that falls into the 2nd rd 

if we’re gonna come up short with that strategy then what’s the point of collecting second round picks? Might as well trade them all ? Let’s call up the flyers and get wade Allison for a 2nd ... the whole point of getting more seconds is to have more cracks at hitting a homerun player , what if the pick we traded away ended up resulting in us losing out on a big time player? Again We have a ton of kids likely in the top 6 coming as it is so I’d pass on raddysh , you wouldn’t and that’s just fine 

 

top contending teams like tampa also heavily rely on top prospects to fill in the roster spots with cheaper contracts to keep them competitive ;) go ask the leafs if they’ll trade away sandin,liljgren , teams with cap problems will rely on the prospects to come up and help them win 

karlsson is a free agent in a few weeks so that won’t happen, and why would tampa want him he’s damaged goods right ? There’s other ways of Tampa getting rid of salary and McDonough and hedman are 30 or near 30 , they have no yound d prospects to come up the ranks for the future it’s basically Foote so no at this stage I can’t see them trading Foote 

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38 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

I’m sure I can name countless other hosangs and raddysh can very well likely be another ... the wings have a lot of forward prospects with top 6 upside as is and I’d personally rather keep the pick than a raddysh and try and land a top line or d pair  prospect that falls into the 2nd rd 

if we’re gonna come up short with that strategy then what’s the point of collecting second round picks? Might as well trade them all ? Let’s call up the flyers and get wade Allison for a 2nd ... the whole point of getting more seconds is to have more cracks at hitting a homerun player , what if the pick we traded away ended up resulting in us losing out on a big time player? Again We have a ton of kids likely in the top 6 coming as it is so I’d pass on raddysh , you wouldn’t and that’s just fine 

You can name countless late 1st round / 2nd round picks that flopped? Thanks for proving my point...

Yes, I know, you'd rather try your own luck in the draft, than take a known commodity... Dumb logic, but you do you...

The point in stockpiling picks is exactly what you're saying, to have more opportunity to hit on a player. However, every GM in the league would take a proven prospect over a pick every single time. There's a reason not many prospects are flipped for picks, and it's because the prospect holds more value than the pick... not the other way around.

I'm sure Yzerman would prefer Raddysh over a 2nd round pick, and I'm also sure BriseBois would rather part with a 2nd round pick than Raddysh.

I don't know much about Wade Allison, but after a big year and then a flop, he probably wouldn't be worth it. But yes, I'd trade a 2nd round pick for any prospect that projects to be a middle six (2nd line) winger any day...

55 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

karlsson is a free agent in a few weeks so that won’t happen, and why would tampa want him he’s damaged goods right ? There’s other ways of Tampa getting rid of salary and McDonough and hedman are 30 or near 30 , they have no yound d prospects to come up the ranks for the future it’s basically Foote so no at this stage I can’t see them trading Foote 

It was a hypothetical... Do you think Tampa would trade Foote straight up for Karlsson (signed for the next 7 years)?

I never once said Karlsson was damaged goods, but please, keep trying to spin EVERYTHING I say...

I've said countless times now that Karlsson would be a great signing for a Cup contender (Tampa Bay), and a terrible signing for a rebuilding team (Detroit). I'm really not sure why that's so difficult for you to comprehend...

Sure, there are other ways for Tampa to dump salary. However, trading Callahan is the easiest, most logical way to go about it. AGAIN, they probably won't part with Foote, which is why I'm suggesting their next best prospect (Raddysh)...

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12 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

You can name countless late 1st round / 2nd round picks that flopped? Thanks for proving my point...

Yes, I know, you'd rather try your own luck in the draft, than take a known commodity... Dumb logic, but you do you...

The point in stockpiling picks is exactly what you're saying, to have more opportunity to hit on a player. However, every GM in the league would take a proven prospect over a pick every single time. There's a reason not many prospects are flipped for picks, and it's because the prospect holds more value than the pick... not the other way around.

I'm sure Yzerman would prefer Raddysh over a 2nd round pick, and I'm also sure BriseBois would rather part with a 2nd round pick than Raddysh.

I don't know much about Wade Allison, but after a big year and then a flop, he probably wouldn't be worth it. But yes, I'd trade a 2nd round pick for any prospect that projects to be a middle six (2nd line) winger any day...

It was a hypothetical... Do you think Tampa would trade Foote straight up for Karlsson (signed for the next 7 years)?

I never once said Karlsson was damaged goods, but please, keep trying to spin EVERYTHING I say...

I've said countless times now that Karlsson would be a great signing for a Cup contender (Tampa Bay), and a terrible signing for a rebuilding team (Detroit). I'm really not sure why that's so difficult for you to comprehend...

Sure, there are other ways for Tampa to dump salary. However, trading Callahan is the easiest, most logical way to go about it. AGAIN, they probably won't part with Foote, which is why I'm suggesting their next best prospect (Raddysh)...

Thanks for proving my point lmao no problem man , I’m sure in a few years I’ll be adding your raddysh to that list 

ya don’t worry about my dumb logic , you go trade a 2nd for raddysh, another for wade Allison and the other for kieffer bellows and you tell me how great that known commodity bulls*** works out for ya 

hes not a proven prospect , he’s 21 and played 0 nhl games , he hasn’t proved s*** for all we know he’ll end up a 3rd line player and we have those in abundance or better yet he can still be a bust .... you just said there’s a reason not many “proven” prospects are traded for picks and yet you think we’ll get him to get a player with a one year deal left or a pick ... ok 

If Karlsson was with San Jose and locked up and they traded him for Foote sure yes they’d do it but your talking about trading the 14th pick and best d prospect on the team to get rid of a guy with one year left For picks(which you just finished saying teams don’t trade prospects for picks)

And i never said Foote would never be traded , I said countless times if it was a hockey trade involving prospects or impact players he could be moved 

Fine forget Allison , julien gauthier Or whoever you keep doing those trades for guys who will be 2nd or 3rd line guys , with that thinking you’ll never get impact star players unless we always hit on our 1sts or get lucky like we did in the 80s-90s and draft stars in the late rounds 

 

i dont spin s*** man your the one who keeps bringing up his injury histories like he’s on a f***en wheelchair when outside of last season he hasn’t played in fewer than 71 games per year so I don’t know wtf your going on about 

Oh I comprehend s*** just fine don’t worry  ... and yes Callahan is the best player to move and will be deal and you can target raddysh all you want but in the end they’ll likely end up moving a 3rd pick ,2nd if a team is lucky to move a player with a single season left on his deal 

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12 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Thanks for proving my point lmao no problem man , I’m sure in a few years I’ll be adding your raddysh to that list 

You may very well add Raddysh to the list, but he still has a higher probability of making it than another 2nd round pick, or Beecher at this point.

18 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

ya don’t worry about my dumb logic , you go trade a 2nd for raddysh, another for wade Allison and the other for kieffer bellows and you tell me how great that known commodity bulls*** works out for ya 

It's funny because even after you cherry picked those names, I bet that if we traded all three of our 2nd round picks this year for those three players, we'd end up better off for it. I'm not saying I'd do it, because I know very little about Allison or Bellows, but if they're close to Raddysh in their development, it would be a win for us.

23 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

hes not a proven prospect , he’s 21 and played 0 nhl games , he hasn’t proved s*** for all we know he’ll end up a 3rd line player and we have those in abundance or better yet he can still be a bust .... you just said there’s a reason not many “proven” prospects are traded for picks and yet you think we’ll get him to get a player with a one year deal left or a pick ... ok 

He's a hell of a lot more proven than Beecher or any other undrafted player... which is my point.

27 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

If Karlsson was with San Jose and locked up and they traded him for Foote sure yes they’d do it but your talking about trading the 14th pick and best d prospect on the team to get rid of a guy with one year left For picks(which you just finished saying teams don’t trade prospects for picks)

Unless Tampa are able to free up some cap space, they're going to have a difficult time adding any pieces this summer. So if they want a shot at signing Karlsson, they should be aggressively shopping Callahan. IF they had to trade Foote in a package to ship out Callahan, they would essentially be getting Karlsson for Foote...

34 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

And i never said Foote would never be traded , I said countless times if it was a hockey trade involving prospects or impact players he could be moved 

And I said countless times that if Teravainen (18th overall) and Crouse (11th overall) can be included in similar salary dump trades, then why is it impossible to imagine that Foote (14th overall) could be as well???

38 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Fine forget Allison , julien gauthier Or whoever you keep doing those trades for guys who will be 2nd or 3rd line guys , with that thinking you’ll never get impact star players unless we always hit on our 1sts or get lucky like we did in the 80s-90s and draft stars in the late rounds 

Exactly. You need to hit on your 1st round picks and get lucky in the six rounds after that. 

Julien Gauthier, another player I would trade a 2nd round pick for in a heartbeat.

41 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

i dont spin s*** man your the one who keeps bringing up his injury histories like he’s on a f***en wheelchair when outside of last season he hasn’t played in fewer than 71 games per year so I don’t know wtf your going on about 

I don't keep bring up his injury history. I keep bringing up his injury history, age, cost, and where we are as a team... All reasons I would personally stay away.

43 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Oh I comprehend s*** just fine don’t worry  ... and yes Callahan is the best player to move and will be deal and you can target raddysh all you want but in the end they’ll likely end up moving a 3rd pick ,2nd if a team is lucky to move a player with a single season left on his deal 

Oh yes, your comprehension is great... You clearly aren't paying attention to the going rate for dumping a contract... So please explain to me why trading for Bickell can get a team a TOP prospect in Teravainen, but trading for Callahan will only get a team a 3rd round pick, or a 2nd if they're lucky?...

I think I'd have a more productive conversation with my dog...

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5 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Yet you seem to know Karlsson won’t ? Karlsson isn’t a beast ? He’s been putting up big numbers ever since he’s been in the league on a yearly basis ... what makes you so sure burns can be productive later on and not Karlsson? Only cause burns has a similar  build as chara? Karlsson isn’t as damaged goods as you seem to think he is and will be .... f***en mike green was on pace for 50 pts last year at 33 now your gonna tell me you don’t think Karlsson will be as productive as green at 33? Come on man Karlsson is on an elite level, ppl time alone he will get his 50 pts 

Actually, Karlsson averages 68 games a season and 56 points.

You choose:

1. 29 year old offensive RH D. 55 points. 7 year deal at 10+ mil per year.

2. 33 year old offensive RH D. 50 points. 2-3 year deal at 5-6 mil per year.

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1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

You may very well add Raddysh to the list, but he still has a higher probability of making it than another 2nd round pick, or Beecher at this point.

It's funny because even after you cherry picked those names, I bet that if we traded all three of our 2nd round picks this year for those three players, we'd end up better off for it. I'm not saying I'd do it, because I know very little about Allison or Bellows, but if they're close to Raddysh in their development, it would be a win for us.

He's a hell of a lot more proven than Beecher or any other undrafted player... which is my point.

Unless Tampa are able to free up some cap space, they're going to have a difficult time adding any pieces this summer. So if they want a shot at signing Karlsson, they should be aggressively shopping Callahan. IF they had to trade Foote in a package to ship out Callahan, they would essentially be getting Karlsson for Foote...

And I said countless times that if Teravainen (18th overall) and Crouse (11th overall) can be included in similar salary dump trades, then why is it impossible to imagine that Foote (14th overall) could be as well???

Exactly. You need to hit on your 1st round picks and get lucky in the six rounds after that. 

Julien Gauthier, another player I would trade a 2nd round pick for in a heartbeat.

I don't keep bring up his injury history. I keep bringing up his injury history, age, cost, and where we are as a team... All reasons I would personally stay away.

Oh yes, your comprehension is great... You clearly aren't paying attention to the going rate for dumping a contract... So please explain to me why trading for Bickell can get a team a TOP prospect in Teravainen, but trading for Callahan will only get a team a 3rd round pick, or a 2nd if they're lucky?...

I think I'd have a more productive conversation with my dog...

Right , says you

 

Picked those names cause I remembered them having good seasons and well talked about, bellows was a good player for the u.s ... point is there all 20-22 and as of today accomplished f*** all nhl wise , if you think trading 2nds for those types of players would make us better off we’ll  I’m just grateful you don’t have Stevie on your contact list 

 

all depends on the player that’s been undrafted as of yet , s*** raddysh is more ahead on his development than kakko at this point ... Just because a player like beecher will go in the second doesn’t mean he won’t make it to the league sooner than raddysh would age wise , a lot of teams are salivating at beecher and wouldn’t shock me at all if he’s picked in the first round , we’ll ahesd of your precious raddysh was 

 

just let let go of your Foote infatuation , if Tampa really wants to move cap space they’ll buy out callahan rather than give away their top prospect , wake up

 

all these prospect trades you keep talking about happened 3-4 yrs ago , you don’t think teams have seen what has happened and realized it’s not a smart move? And none of those guys moved were their respective teams top prospects ...  but hey it’s fine keep thinking Foote gets moved 

 

 

That’s fine , Stay away from crippled washed up erik 

 

You should go talk to your dog then , ask Stevie if he can trade one of our seconds for some dog treats while your at it 

 

Edited by nyqvististhefuture

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11 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Actually, Karlsson averages 68 games a season and 56 points.

You choose:

1. 29 year old offensive RH D. 55 points. 7 year deal at 10+ mil per year.

2. 33 year old offensive RH D. 50 points. 2-3 year deal at 5-6 mil per year.

I have no idea what your going on about , who’s 33  making 5-6 a year? Cause that sure as s*** not burns 

You can use your average stats to bring down Karlsson’s #s but his stats are only lower cause of 2 seasons, specially one, he’s played in 71 games + 7/10 seasons and had 60+ Pts 6/10 and 5 of last 6 yrs he’s easily one of the top dmen in the league it’s not even up for debate, it’s his durability and his supposed s*** numbers he’ll be posting in 5 years that we’re debating 

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7 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Speaking on the injury again though, when a player misses 30 games and 11 games the past two seasons, and is going to command north of $10-11M per season, I think it's fair to say buyer beware. He may play the next three seasons without missing a single game, but I wouldn't bet on it.

But he didn't miss 11 games last year. He missed 5, and that only because the broken foot he suffered the previous year kept him from training properly in the offseason, so he wasn't quite in game shape. The other 6 games he missed that year were for personal reasons due to the death of his son and all the off-ice nonsense in Ottawa. Three unrelated injuries over 7 seasons: Cut by a skate, broken foot blocking a shot, and the groin this year. No more reason to think his health/durability is a concern than there is to think Mantha will keep breaking his hand every other season.

If you want to say he has complimentary piece impact and will get core piece money, I won't argue. But the injuries aren't a big deal. Or even a regular sized deal.

4 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

It’s not one single player alone, It’s a collective with this draft as well as hopefully the 3 2nds next year (if sj resigns nyquist) and hopefully future drafts where we hit late, free agency etc..  that will make us a team that can compete for the cup hopefully for 20-30 years like we previously did, never said we’d hit a homerun with the 2020 pick and we’d be cup contenders the next year but we’re headed the right way , if we start making the playoffs next year we’ll just be another bubble team that’s around yearly, we have to get this rebuild done right 

But all that other stuff is the same regardless of what happens next season. We already have the picks this year. We already have the extra 2nd/3rd next year. The only difference is whether the 2020 1st is a lottery pick or not, and whatever small difference there might be between an early-2nd and a middle-2nd. That is not the difference between decades of being a contender and just another bubble team.

We haven't even gotten to the draft this year, and you're already looking at next year's first as the key to our future. So what happens if we're bad next year, but still don't win the lottery? Do you think the 6th pick in 2020 is going to be a franchise defining player? What if we're a bubble team and end up picking 12th? Trade players away so hopefully we'll be bad enough to win the 2021 lottery? 

At some point in a rebuild you have to put some faith into what has already been built, or otherwise you might as well trade everyone and start from scratch. But trying to win games and make the playoffs doesn't mean the rebuild is done. You never stop adding. If you try to wait until you have everything before you try to climb out of the basement, you'll stay in the basement forever. 

If we don't land any good UFAs this year, or even if Yzerman doesn't think any are worth going after, it won't be a big deal. But I hope he doesn't have the mindset that we need to continue to suck. 

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1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Actually, Karlsson averages 68 games a season and 56 points.

You choose:

1. 29 year old offensive RH D. 55 points. 7 year deal at 10+ mil per year.

2. 33 year old offensive RH D. 50 points. 2-3 year deal at 5-6 mil per year.

Green's only even hit 40 once in the last 9 years, and only scored at a 50 point pace twice, and not played more than 75 games since 2008. Missed 188 games in the last 9 years. Calling him a 50 point player is a whole bucketful of stupid. Calling Karlsson a 55 point player is at least a few large glasses too.

I don't even like Karlsson, and I would much rather have him at 7x$11M than another three years paying $5M to be infected by Green.

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45 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Picked those names cause I remembered them having good seasons and well talked about, bellows was a good player for the u.s ... point is there all 20-22 and as of today accomplished f*** all nhl wise , if you think trading 2nds for those types of players would make us better off we’ll  I’m just grateful you don’t have Stevie on your contact list 

"Those types of players"... Mantha never cracked the NHL until he was 22. A LOT of players that go on to have very successful NHL careers don't start in the NHL until they're 21+ years old. Raddysh is 21 now, and could be ready to make the jump as early as this season, or possibly the following season.

1 hour ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

all depends on the player that’s been undrafted as of yet , s*** raddysh is more ahead on his development than kakko at this point ... Just because a player like beecher will go in the second doesn’t mean he won’t make it to the league sooner than raddysh would age wise , a lot of teams are salivating at beecher and wouldn’t shock me at all if he’s picked in the first round , we’ll ahesd of your precious raddysh was 

It's not about which player will make it sooner, it's about who has the better chance of making it, and right now, Raddysh had a better chance of making it than any of the potential 2nd round picks coming up in this draft. It's common sense that somehow escapes you...

"My precious Raddysh"... Because I'd prefer him over a crap shoot pick? LOL

2 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

just let let go of your Foote infatuation , if Tampa really wants to move cap space they’ll buy out callahan rather than give away their top prospect , wake up

all these prospect trades you keep talking about happened 3-4 yrs ago , you don’t think teams have seen what has happened and realized it’s not a smart move? And none of those guys moved were their respective teams top prospects ...  but hey it’s fine keep thinking Foote gets moved 

"But hey, it's fine. Keep thinking Foote gets moved"... Nope, you don't try to spin words at all... Go back and count how many times I've said that Tampa likely wouldn't have to give up Foote to trade Callahan. Literally all I'm saying is that it's happened several times in the past, and it could happen again. Likely? No. Possible? Yes.

2 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

That’s fine , Stay away from crippled washed up erik 

It's actually amazing how illiterate you are... I always knew you couldn't form a sentence with proper punctuation, but apparently you can't read for s*** either...

Stop trying to twist my words to fit you're dumbass arguments...

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3 minutes ago, Buppy said:

Green's only even hit 40 once in the last 9 years, and only scored at a 50 point pace twice, and not played more than 75 games since 2008. Missed 188 games in the last 9 years. Calling him a 50 point player is a whole bucketful of stupid. Calling Karlsson a 55 point player is at least a few large glasses too.

I don't even like Karlsson, and I would much rather have him at 7x$11M than another three years paying $5M to be infected by Green.

Yes, I know. I was using the 50 point number for Green because thats what he used when comparing him to Karlsson in his post. His number, not mine.

My point was that when Karlsson is the same age as Green is now, and assuming he is only still averaging 56 points a season, is he worth 50 to 100 percent more in salary and double the contract length for a marginal increase in scoring (using the numbers he posted)?

In reality, Green's numbers are much lower that Karlsson's but for the sake of his argument I was using it.

I wasnt advocating for re-signing Green. Just saying that I would rather have him on his contract at his age than Karlsson at the same age on a much more expensive and longer term contract.

2 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

I have no idea what your going on about , who’s 33  making 5-6 a year? Cause that sure as s*** not burns 

You can use your average stats to bring down Karlsson’s #s but his stats are only lower cause of 2 seasons, specially one, he’s played in 71 games + 7/10 seasons and had 60+ Pts 6/10 and 5 of last 6 yrs he’s easily one of the top dmen in the league it’s not even up for debate, it’s his durability and his supposed s*** numbers he’ll be posting in 5 years that we’re debating 

See above.

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2 hours ago, Buppy said:

But he didn't miss 11 games last year. He missed 5, and that only because the broken foot he suffered the previous year kept him from training properly in the offseason, so he wasn't quite in game shape. The other 6 games he missed that year were for personal reasons due to the death of his son and all the off-ice nonsense in Ottawa. Three unrelated injuries over 7 seasons: Cut by a skate, broken foot blocking a shot, and the groin this year. No more reason to think his health/durability is a concern than there is to think Mantha will keep breaking his hand every other season.

If you want to say he has complimentary piece impact and will get core piece money, I won't argue. But the injuries aren't a big deal. Or even a regular sized deal.

But all that other stuff is the same regardless of what happens next season. We already have the picks this year. We already have the extra 2nd/3rd next year. The only difference is whether the 2020 1st is a lottery pick or not, and whatever small difference there might be between an early-2nd and a middle-2nd. That is not the difference between decades of being a contender and just another bubble team.

We haven't even gotten to the draft this year, and you're already looking at next year's first as the key to our future. So what happens if we're bad next year, but still don't win the lottery? Do you think the 6th pick in 2020 is going to be a franchise defining player? What if we're a bubble team and end up picking 12th? Trade players away so hopefully we'll be bad enough to win the 2021 lottery? 

At some point in a rebuild you have to put some faith into what has already been built, or otherwise you might as well trade everyone and start from scratch. But trying to win games and make the playoffs doesn't mean the rebuild is done. You never stop adding. If you try to wait until you have everything before you try to climb out of the basement, you'll stay in the basement forever. 

If we don't land any good UFAs this year, or even if Yzerman doesn't think any are worth going after, it won't be a big deal. But I hope he doesn't have the mindset that we need to continue to suck. 

Well I think it makes a difference whether we get a top 5 pick let’s say or get 13th unless get lucky and pull off another Larkin type pick , better luck being closer to the top , Same with our second rounders 

next years draft is suppose to be as good if not better than this years draft so yes I’m looking ahead and thinking of the future , yes we have some nice young pieces but zadina,veleno,Berggren,mcisaac and countless others haven’t even played a full season yet and Rasmussen is likely to start in Grand Rapids , I know it sucks and I want us to win cups as quick as possible but I’m trying to think longterm so we’re not like the oilers and make the playoffs once or twice  Every 12 yrs 

im sure yzerman doesn’t want us to continue to suck, I’m sure we’ll be competitive and win some games And even lose close ones I just hope either we get lucky somehow and win the lottery or all the teams for the most part are close in the standings again and if it’s clear with 5-6 games we won’t get in I hope we drop from 8th to 3rd , anyways we’ll see what happens this season either way I’ll be excited to watch the kids in Detroit get better and hopefully some griffins games as well

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