2019 Offseason Rebuild Thread, Pt. 2 - What's the Yzerplan?

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

34 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Nielsen, Helm, and Abby are all better than Ehn and DLR and should be there over those 2.

I disagree.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

2 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

As long as he gets the net front time on the pp, hes fine being the high forward on a checking line 5 on 5.  Rasmussen-Ehn-DelaRose would be a damn good 3rd line, imo.

Thing is I want rasmussen at best to end up like a 45-65 pt guy at least ,scared playing with those 2 and always playing with guys like that on a line we’re gonna develop him into a guy who gets occasional goals on the ppl and ends up being a 10-15 goal guy and 20-28 pts which is not what I want our 9th pick to turn out to be , I’d like to see him start down and just dominate the ahl and get confidence back

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

3 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Thing is I want rasmussen at best to end up like a 45-65 pt guy at least ,scared playing with those 2 and always playing with guys like that on a line we’re gonna develop him into a guy who gets occasional goals on the ppl and ends up being a 10-15 goal guy and 20-28 pts which is not what I want our 9th pick to turn out to be , I’d like to see him start down and just dominate the ahl and get confidence back

If/when he is one of our top 6 guys, put him in the top 6.  Right now, i feel like he's #7 behind the guys i put on the top 2 lines.  No reason to demote our 7th best forward to GR.  Unless we are trying to lose?

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

51 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

If/when he is one of our top 6 guys, put him in the top 6.  Right now, i feel like he's #7 behind the guys i put on the top 2 lines.  No reason to demote our 7th best forward to GR.  Unless we are trying to lose?

Reason to demote him to the minors is so he can get better , that’s what teams do ya know? I’d rather see him getting 20+ minutes a night and ppl time in Grand Rapids than 10-12 here and you know deep down with guys like Nielsen,helm and glendening here he won’t be viewed as our 7th best forward ... I’m just trying not to f*** up this kid already and turning him into a bottom line guy, he was our 9th pick I want him to succeed 

Grand Rapids are gonna be stacked this year , maybe he plays with a veleno and svechnikov to start the year or something similar and goes nuts and gets called up after 15-20 games , who knows what will happen with this team all depends if yzerman signs someone and/or gets rid of some deadweight 

[Dabura 12,206]

3 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Rasmussen-Ehn-DelaRose would be a damn good 3rd line, imo.

That's barely a fourth line right now, imo.

[Dabura 12,206]

Any interest in Ehlers?

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, Dabura said:

Any interest in Ehlers?

No

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

4 hours ago, Dabura said:

That's barely a fourth line right now, imo.

Agreed. Moose will probably end up a middle 6 forward who can play 2W or 3C and be a net front presence on the PP, but Ehn is a 4C at best and DLR is a spare F on just about any team.

Abby, Helm, and Nielsen may be overpaid and/or on bad contracts, but they are all 3rd liners on most teams and 4th line regulars at worst. 

[kipwinger 8,492]

11 hours ago, Dabura said:

Any interest in Ehlers?

In a vacuum, yes. He's a really solid player.  But I think we're in really good shape on the wings between Bert, Mantha, Zadina, AA, Hirose, Svech, and Rasmussen. 

[kipwinger 8,492]

9 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Agreed. Moose will probably end up a middle 6 forward who can play 2W or 3C and be a net front presence on the PP, but Ehn is a 4C at best and DLR is a spare F on just about any team.

Abby, Helm, and Nielsen may be overpaid and/or on bad contracts, but they are all 3rd liners on most teams and 4th line regulars at worst. 

I basically agree with this.  We essentially had two fourth lines last year when you consider many nights we dressed Glendening, Helm, Abby, Ehn, and De La Rose.  None of those guys are really good enough to play regularly above a fourth line (maybe Helm or Glendening in a pinch).  We definitely don't want to repeat that lineup if we're looking to win here.  IMO you pick the four best of those guys (or the four you can't trade maybe) and make three of the your 4th line, and one of them your extra forward.  In no way should any more than three of those guys be in the lineup on a nightly basis. 

 

Edited June 17, 2019 by kipwinger

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

8 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I basically agree with this.  We essentially had two fourth lines last year when you consider many nights we dressed Glendening, Helm, Abby, Ehn, and De La Rose.  None of those guys are really good enough to play regularly above a fourth line (maybe Helm or Glendening in a pinch).  We definitely don't want to repeat that lineup if we're looking to win here.  IMO you pick the four best of those guys (or the four you can't trade maybe) and make three of the your 4th line, and one of them your extra forward.  In no way should any more than three of those guys be in the lineup on a nightly basis. 

 

Ehn is a good player.  I liked how he handled his 1st season last year.  

[kipwinger 8,492]

4 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Ehn is a good player.  I liked how he handled his 1st season last year.  

 

Ok, then from your point of view he'd be one of the four you keep in lineup.  De La Rose goes, and one of Ehn, Helm, Abby, or Glendening sits.  You just can't having five roster spots going to guys who can't score.  And definitely not five roster spots across multiple lines.  There's a reason our offense is trash.  Aside from the powerplay a big part of it is that each line is basically saddled with one or two guys who have essentially zero offensive ability. 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

10 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

 

Ok, then from your point of view he'd be one of the four you keep in lineup.  De La Rose goes, and one of Ehn, Helm, Abby, or Glendening sits.  You just can't having five roster spots going to guys who can't score.  And definitely not five roster spots across multiple lines.  There's a reason our offense is trash.  Aside from the powerplay a big part of it is that each line is basically saddled with one or two guys who have essentially zero offensive ability. 

I feel ya.  But everytime you suggest bringing up guys WITH offensive ability (Veleno, Zadina, pick #6), you give 90% of the LGW community aneurysm.  Glendening-Ehn-DelaRose SHOULD be our 4th line.  And Rasmussen-Veleno-pick#6 SHOULD be our 3rd line.  But Helm-Nielsen-Abdelkader will be the 3rd line.  We all know these guys need to go.  The Yzerplan needs to be to 86 these guys.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

20 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I feel ya.  But everytime you suggest bringing up guys WITH offensive ability (Veleno, Zadina, pick #6), you give 90% of the LGW community aneurysm.  Glendening-Ehn-DelaRose SHOULD be our 4th line.  And Rasmussen-Veleno-pick#6 SHOULD be our 3rd line.  But Helm-Nielsen-Abdelkader will be the 3rd line.  We all know these guys need to go.  The Yzerplan needs to be to 86 these guys.

Who’s gonna take abdelkader with 4 years left? I can’t anybody at this point taking him , I see us putting up with him for 2 more years and buying him out so we get a cap penalty of 4 years and not the 8 it would be now, And i know you want to win now but it’s not a smart move longterm to rush these kids into the lineup straight away , #6 kid we pick regardless who it is won’t be jumping in next year and veleno most likely will start in ahl and get some experience unless he goes bananas and gets something like 10 pts in 4 pre season games and gives us no choice

[kipwinger 8,492]

49 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I feel ya.  But everytime you suggest bringing up guys WITH offensive ability (Veleno, Zadina, pick #6), you give 90% of the LGW community aneurysm.  Glendening-Ehn-DelaRose SHOULD be our 4th line.  And Rasmussen-Veleno-pick#6 SHOULD be our 3rd line.  But Helm-Nielsen-Abdelkader will be the 3rd line.  We all know these guys need to go.  The Yzerplan needs to be to 86 these guys.

I actually don't agree with this.  The knock on Helm and Abby and Neilsen is their price, not their ability.  ALL of them have shown they're better players than De La Rose (for instance).  And since we're in no cap trouble at all I don't see why you'd move on from guys who are obviously better than the younger guys.  Again, maybe if you were up against the cap and need to re-sign someone, but we aren't.  I'd much rather have Helm or Abby in the lineup than Ehn or De La Rose.  I just don't want them playing anything more than fourth line minutes.  Barring any trades for free agent signings my fourth line next year would be Helm-Glendening-Abby.  Neilsen would center the third line (until injured or Veleno shows he's ready for a call up in GR) and one of Ehn or De La Rose would be in the press box. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

48 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Who’s gonna take abdelkader with 4 years left? I can’t anybody at this point taking him , I see us putting up with him for 2 more years and buying him out so we get a cap penalty of 4 years and not the 8 it would be now, And i know you want to win now but it’s not a smart move longterm to rush these kids into the lineup straight away , #6 kid we pick regardless who it is won’t be jumping in next year and veleno most likely will start in ahl and get some experience unless he goes bananas and gets something like 10 pts in 4 pre season games and gives us no choice

10 points in 4 pre-season games? Larkin put up a whopping 4 points in 5 pre-season games the year he was on the bubble. Veleno put up 2 points in 3 pre-season games last year (a year younger than Larkin) and was one of the last players cut. As long as he has a big summer, I expect him to make a real push again this year.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

23 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

10 points in 4 pre-season games? Larkin put up a whopping 4 points in 5 pre-season games the year he was on the bubble. Veleno put up 2 points in 3 pre-season games last year (a year younger than Larkin) and was one of the last players cut. As long as he has a big summer, I expect him to make a real push again this year.

I’m just giving an example , I don’t think if he got 5 pts in 5 games it might be enough to make him start on the team we all know most teams won’t be playing their best players , i want veleno to succeed and be an impact player but seeing the team as is and who knows if yzerman will sign someone and the way we’ve always done things I expect him to start down in Grand Rapids

[kipwinger 8,492]

I genuinely don't understand why everybody is so quick to get rid of Abby.  I get that his production has curtailed the last few seasons but his ice time has fallen by about 3 minutes per game since his career highs in 2015 and 2016.  And that reduction is ice is EXACTLY what everybody wanted in the first place.  Now the big complaint is that he doens't score.  The reasoning is pretty circular.  Then people freak out about his contract, which has not affected the team negatively in any conceivable way.  So I can't understand that one either.  Then they say he's eating up a roster spot, but when guys like Ehn, De La Rose, Witkowski, and Frk are on the team it's pretty hard to argue that roster spots are at a premium. 

I say let his contract run out.  And in the mean time let him be a good locker room guy.  Let him teach the kids how to work out like a pro, eat like a pro, practice like a pro, be responsible on roadtrips, hold them accountable on the ice, and all that.  And all the while keep reducing his role as other guys peak until he's a regular scratch.  That would cost the team nothing and might actually benefit the organization in the long term. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

7 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

I’m just giving an example , I don’t think if he got 5 pts in 5 games it might be enough to make him start on the team we all know most teams won’t be playing their best players , i want veleno to succeed and be an impact player but seeing the team as is and who knows if yzerman will sign someone and the way we’ve always done things I expect him to start down in Grand Rapids

"The way we've always done things" changed the moment Yzerman took over for Holland. I'm not saying we'll see a drastic change in philosophy, but I do think some things will be different. I think getting younger will be a priority for Yzerman over the next couple seasons.

I could see the Veleno situation going either way, but I don't think he'll need to put up historic numbers to make the team out of camp.

[kipwinger 8,492]

2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

"The way we've always done things" changed the moment Yzerman took over for Holland. I'm not saying we'll see a drastic change in philosophy, but I do think some things will be different. I think getting younger will be a priority for Yzerman over the next couple seasons.

I could see the Veleno situation going either way, but I don't think he'll need to put up historic numbers to make the team out of camp.

While I think it's pretty unlikely, I do think there's room for Veleno to make the team if it's clear he's ready from camp.  However, two things would have to happen and neither are likely.  At center, any of AA, Glendening, or Nielsen would be moved to the wing .  Larkin, AA/Nielsen/Glendening, Veleno isn't out of the realm of possibility. Or he could do like Larkin and break in on the wing, but that's even more unlikely given that he'd have to leap frog Zadina, Svech, and Rasmussen to do it.  I think odds are that he'll play a full year in GR and breaks in at center a year from now.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

10 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

"The way we've always done things" changed the moment Yzerman took over for Holland. I'm not saying we'll see a drastic change in philosophy, but I do think some things will be different. I think getting younger will be a priority for Yzerman over the next couple seasons.

I could see the Veleno situation going either way, but I don't think he'll need to put up historic numbers to make the team out of camp.

Yes changed things , doesn’t mean 18-19 yr old kids will make the team If we don’t think it’s the best thing longterm for the players development ... sure getting younger will be a priority , also we have no choice with how the roster is currently built 

I think kaski would of probably started down with Holland but I have a feeling we won’t hesitate with him starting up and unless he just tanks in the preseason I’m expecting it , there’s a lot of opportunity to make the d on this team considering what a disaster it is 

well I don’t think putting up 4 pts in 5 would be enough for veleno to start up , I could be wrong just think he’ll start down and see how he handles it , can see him getting called up at some point if he plays well

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

I actually don't agree with this.  The knock on Helm and Abby and Neilsen is their price, not their ability.  ALL of them have shown they're better players than De La Rose (for instance).  And since we're in no cap trouble at all I don't see why you'd move on from guys who are obviously better than the younger guys.  Again, maybe if you were up against the cap and need to re-sign someone, but we aren't.  I'd much rather have Helm or Abby in the lineup than Ehn or De La Rose.  I just don't want them playing anything more than fourth line minutes.  Barring any trades for free agent signings my fourth line next year would be Helm-Glendening-Abby.  Neilsen would center the third line (until injured or Veleno shows he's ready for a call up in GR) and one of Ehn or De La Rose would be in the press box. 

Well, this is exactly what led us to the cellar dweller finish last season.  I guess you want the same, while i want something different.

2 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Who’s gonna take abdelkader with 4 years left? I can’t anybody at this point taking him , I see us putting up with him for 2 more years and buying him out so we get a cap penalty of 4 years and not the 8 it would be now, And i know you want to win now but it’s not a smart move longterm to rush these kids into the lineup straight away , #6 kid we pick regardless who it is won’t be jumping in next year and veleno most likely will start in ahl and get some experience unless he goes bananas and gets something like 10 pts in 4 pre season games and gives us no choice

I see your point.  We are crippled by bad contracts for a bit.

[krsmith17 7,191]

18 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

While I think it's pretty unlikely, I do think there's room for Veleno to make the team if it's clear he's ready from camp.  However, two things would have to happen and neither are likely.  At center, any of AA, Glendening, or Nielsen would be moved to the wing .  Larkin, AA/Nielsen/Glendening, Veleno isn't out of the realm of possibility. Or he could do like Larkin and break in on the wing, but that's even more unlikely given that he'd have to leap frog Zadina, Svech, and Rasmussen to do it.  I think odds are that he'll play a full year in GR and breaks in at center a year from now.

IF Veleno proves in camp that he's ready to make the jump, I'd have no problem moving Athanasiou to the wing, as I believe he's better suited there anyway. I agree that he's likely to start in Grand Rapids, and I'd be fine with that. But I wouldn't be surprised if he made the team out of camp either.

15 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Yes changed things , doesn’t mean 18-19 yr old kids will make the team If we don’t think it’s the best thing longterm for the players development ... sure getting younger will be a priority , also we have no choice with how the roster is currently built 

I think kaski would of probably started down with Holland but I have a feeling we won’t hesitate with him starting up and unless he just tanks in the preseason I’m expecting it , there’s a lot of opportunity to make the d on this team considering what a disaster it is 

well I don’t think putting up 4 pts in 5 would be enough for veleno to start up , I could be wrong just think he’ll start down and see how he handles it , can see him getting called up at some point if he plays well

Veleno is 19, the same age Larkin was when he made the team four years ago, and the same age Rasmussen was when he made the team last year. It's not unheard of for 19/20 year olds to make the Red Wings, like it was years ago.

Unless there are trades made, I think there's more opportunity up front than there is on the back end. It would be harder for Kaski to jump into the top 6, than it would be for Veleno to jump into the top 9, unless there are a ton of injuries again.

[kipwinger 8,492]

7 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Well, this is exactly what led us to the cellar dweller finish last season.  I guess you want the same, while i want something different.

 

No, that isn't what "led us to the cellar".  He had Helm, Glendening, Abby, Nielsen, Ehn, and De la Rose all in the lineup, some playing third line minutes or higher.  We had one of the worse defensive groups in the league.  We had no center depth.  AND we were among the most injured teams in the league. 

Suggesting that keeping Abby and Helm around to be 4th liners is more of "the same" is retarded. 

Edited June 17, 2019 by kipwinger

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

41 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

IF Veleno proves in camp that he's ready to make the jump, I'd have no problem moving Athanasiou to the wing, as I believe he's better suited there anyway. I agree that he's likely to start in Grand Rapids, and I'd be fine with that. But I wouldn't be surprised if he made the team out of camp either.

Veleno is 19, the same age Larkin was when he made the team four years ago, and the same age Rasmussen was when he made the team last year. It's not unheard of for 19/20 year olds to make the Red Wings, like it was years ago.

Unless there are trades made, I think there's more opportunity up front than there is on the back end. It would be harder for Kaski to jump into the top 6, than it would be for Veleno to jump into the top 9, unless there are a ton of injuries again.

Yup and Larkin was an anomaly, could it happen with veleno? Sure but If I had to bet money one way or another I’d say he starts down

rasmussen starting here last season was a mistake , he shouldn’t of been here and I’m sure if they can have a do over he wouldn’t have ....and I’m sure the only reason he was, was due to his precious size

i disagree cause I think yzerman is well aware of how atrocious our d core was last season and I do expect at least Daley to be dealt this weekend and possibly ericsson as well to make room for someone like kaski who can be a help on the ppl and possibly someone else July 1 or through a trade .... I’d love to get a top pick next June ,that’s no secret but unless yzermna secretly wants to tank I can’t see him being satisfied going into next season with that same group and those guys will be gone , I’d be shocked if green hronek dekeyser kronwall ericsson Daley were our top 6 

44 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

No, that isn't what "led us to the cellar".  He had Helm, Glendening, Abby, Nielsen, Ehn, and De la Rose all in the lineup, some playing third line minutes or higher.  We had one of the worse defensive groups in the league.  We had no center depth.  AND we were among the most injured teams in the league. 

Suggesting that keeping Abby and Helm around to be 4th liners is more of "the same" is retarded. 

Agreed 

we had an abundance of 4th line guys playing 7-13 spots and An atrocious d core with questionable calls from the coach on more than one occasion 

there’s lots of things that need to be fixed on this team